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Topic: Last in the MAC

Topic: Last in the MAC

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lovebobcat
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Member Since: 12/23/2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 9:14:36 PM

This team will be tied for last at night's end. When's the last time the team was in the basement halfway through the conference season? (And yes, they'll still be there after losing to Buffalo this weekend.)

I imagine even in Saul's first year... even in the 2009-10 season that started 0-4... they weren't last midway through the league season.

Maybe 1997-98?

lovebobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 9:26:16 PM

Pit of Misery season

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YeKz4TkZVic/hqdefault.jpg

Last Edited: 1/23/2018 9:26:56 PM by lovebobcat

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 9:44:35 PM

I guess we are now officially a football school!

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

oubobcatjohn
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 9:45:35 PM

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

lovebobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 9:48:25 PM

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Arkley had a stat that in the second half, we had five possessions in which we could have taken the lead. We got a total of one shot, which missed. The rest were turnovers.

Dilly dilly...

FearLeon
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 9:52:08 PM

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Yep...many people ask what #SaulBall is? I've figured it out in the last 60 seconds of every tight game. All dribble handoffs...no screens...no deception....lose. #SaulBall

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

OhioCatFan
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 10:21:45 PM

FearLeon wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Yep...many people ask what #SaulBall is? I've figured it out in the last 60 seconds of every tight game. All dribble handoffs...no screens...no deception....lose. #SaulBall

Comparison with #SnyderBall

Call crucial TOs at just the right time. Design an incredibly well-thought out play on the fly or call a pre-determined and practiced last 20-second play, and then have his players execute it flawless. More times than not, pull out the close victory. The best example that I can remember was at O$U in St. John's Arena in the late 1960s, when with about 20 seconds left, he calls a TO in a game tied 80-80. After the TO, OHIO works some kind of a weave around the top of the key, then on cue, four guys pull out toward their sideline, pulling their men with them, thus leaving a gigantic hole right up the center. The man with the ball rolls around his defender and goes uncontested to the basket for the winning layup. It was kind of like the parting of the Red Sea. One of the most incredible wining basketball plays I've ever seen.

To be fair, Saul did have his great win against Buffalo with the Tony to N'dour full court pass. Here's hoping for a big upset of Buffalo this Friday. Go OHIO!

Bobcat1998
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 10:56:22 PM

FearLeon wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Yep...many people ask what #SaulBall is? I've figured it out in the last 60 seconds of every tight game. All dribble handoffs...no screens...no deception....lose. #SaulBall

I have one word to describe "SaulBall": Uninspired. Do you know how demeaning that is for a Bobcat since 1997 (I fell in love with OU through Gary Trent and a tough NCAA game against Indiana). I went to OU. I graduated from OU. I met my wife at OU. I root for no other team in any sport (pros or college) than Ohio. I have lived through Brian Knorr. I have disliked Jim Christian for wasting a Sweet 16 team. SaulBall is killing me as a diehard fan. The players are uninspired. No edge. No toughness. If you put John Groce with our group (same group, even minus Jaaron and Jason) we beat Iona. We beat Kent. We beat Akron. We beat Balls. I'm telling you, don't underestimate a fiery guy. Saul needs to return to the Dakotas, get to multiple NCAAs with the JackRabbits and SkyHawks and let us get somebody who will live for the Cats!

BillyTheCat
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 11:03:21 PM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Yep...many people ask what #SaulBall is? I've figured it out in the last 60 seconds of every tight game. All dribble handoffs...no screens...no deception....lose. #SaulBall

Yeah, because Groce was stellar in regular season league play. Almost unbeatable.

Last Edited: 1/23/2018 11:03:42 PM by BillyTheCat

Bobcat1998
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/23/2018 11:15:02 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Bobcat1998 wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Yep...many people ask what #SaulBall is? I've figured it out in the last 60 seconds of every tight game. All dribble handoffs...no screens...no deception....lose. #SaulBall

Yeah, because Groce was stellar in regular season league play. Almost unbeatable.

He wasnt this bad

GraffZ06
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 12:02:48 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Yeah, because Groce was stellar in regular season league play. Almost unbeatable.

He wasnt this bad

Well, to be fair let's look at what the data actually says.

John Groce - 4 years: 2008-2012

Overall Record: 85-56 (.603)
MAC Regular Season: 34-30 (.531)
MAC Tournament: 9-2 (.889)
MAC Total (Reg+Tournament): 43-32 (.573)
OOC Total: 38-21 (.644)
Post-Season: 4-3 (.571) - 2 NCAA, 1 CIT

Saul Phillips - 3.5+ years: 2014-2018

Overall Record: 62-53 (.539)
MAC Regular Season: 29-32 (.475)
MAC Tournament: 2-3 (.400)
MAC Total (Reg+Tournament): 31-35 (.470)
OOC Total: 29-17 (.630)
Post-Season: 2-1 (.667) - 1 CBI

-----

So to summarize, Groce was better overall, he was slightly better in OOC and MAC regular season - but takes SP to the woodshed in the post-season (results to be expected).

How MUCH better was he? Well, if we extrapolate their respective MAC winning percentages over an 18 game MAC schedule (I'll use total for this example - meaning regular season + tournament) then Groce would win (18*.573 = 10.31 games) while Phillips would win (18*.470 = 8.46 games). So in MAC play Groce won, on average, 1.85 more games per 18 - or basically an extra win every 9 games played.

*Edit to add: Interesting that Groce won OOC at a 64% clip and then won in the MAC at 57%. Saul, on the other hand wins 63% of OOC but then falls to 47% in the MAC. Dude can't win MAC games which makes it hard to get to the NCAA's.

Last Edited: 1/24/2018 12:13:25 AM by GraffZ06

OU_Country
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 12:52:28 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Bobcat1998 wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Yep...many people ask what #SaulBall is? I've figured it out in the last 60 seconds of every tight game. All dribble handoffs...no screens...no deception....lose. #SaulBall

Yeah, because Groce was stellar in regular season league play. Almost unbeatable.

He wasnt this bad

I'd talk about how DJ never transferred and other really good players didn't miss half or whole seasons while John was here, but some grumpy folks will poo poo that. So carry on....

Last Edited: 1/24/2018 11:45:15 AM by OU_Country

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 7:17:03 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

I have one word to describe "SaulBall": Uninspired.

The players are uninspired. No edge. No toughness.

This !

Disclaimer:The following comments are based only on games I've seen.

I've had a chance to see several "Saul Ball" games at the Convo,including two season openers.
I also watch their games on T.V. whenever they're on.

Based on the games I've seen,"uninspired" kind of sums it up.

I would think the team would be psyched/excited for their home opener.
But the two season openers I saw it wasn't there.
In fact,they seemed kind of "flat",no "fire in the belly".

They lack toughness,especially when the other team makes a run.

I don't think that you necessarily need a "fiery" guy,coach "K" comes to mind.
But you do need a coach that pushes his players,physically and mentally.
I don't think that's happening right now.

Last Edited: 1/24/2018 7:36:20 AM by rpbobcat

Ohio69
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 11:18:19 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

Actually, I disagree. I see a tough/scrappy group of players who want to win. A calm/cool outward demeanor (like Dartis and Laster seem to have) does not meant someone is not inspired. Missing a shot does not mean you are not inspired.

We have a young, depleted roster with several guys playing with nagging injuries and we are missing a top MAC player. I don't think we need to over-analyze it.

(Also, this is all relative. While some of us love Groce, there are people in Illinois who think he is a failure, regardless of "don't flinch" inspiration. And, there are people in North Dakota who love Phillips.)

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

OhioStunter
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 12:34:34 PM

lovebobcat wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Arkley had a stat that in the second half, we had five possessions in which we could have taken the lead. We got a total of one shot, which missed. The rest were turnovers.

Dilly dilly...

We never even had a lead in the game. Not once. Against Akron.

100%Cat
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 1:42:45 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Bobcat1998 wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Yeah, because Groce was stellar in regular season league play. Almost unbeatable.

He wasnt this bad

Something I find interesting, and we'll see if it changes with Groce at Akron, is that Groce always struggled on the road in the MAC. By my count, his road MAC record each season he was here was:

08/09: 1-7
09/10: 2-6
10/11: 4-4
11/12: 3-5

And this season, early on at Akron:

17/18: 0-3

Across 4 full seasons and one partial, Groce's road conference record in the MAC is 10-25.

Alan Swank
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 1:55:45 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

lovebobcat wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Arkley had a stat that in the second half, we had five possessions in which we could have taken the lead. We got a total of one shot, which missed. The rest were turnovers.

Dilly dilly...

We never even had a lead in the game. Not once. Against Akron.

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 2:10:19 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

That's a valid point, but they just lost a proven and reliable coach along with a number of key pieces. I think it's safe to say this will be the weakest they'll be for a long time. Our coach is in year four, not year one.

bn9
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 2:41:52 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

Why is it safe to say this is the weakest they will be? Roughly 40% of the players he recruited to Ohio did not finish their careers here. How do you know that he will have a better retention rate at Akron?

Recovering Journalist
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 3:26:57 PM

bn9 wrote:

What makes you disagree? Groce's MAC track record suggests that he will improve the program with time. They lost two good underclassmen to transfer when Dambrot left, and Groce doesn't have all his pieces in place. Like much of the MAC, they are rising as we fall.

OhioStunter
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 4:01:19 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

lovebobcat wrote:

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Dilly dilly. Saul. Should have used a time out on those key possessions in last minute. I could have gone to fridge got another bud lite and you draw up a better play.

Arkley had a stat that in the second half, we had five possessions in which we could have taken the lead. We got a total of one shot, which missed. The rest were turnovers.

Dilly dilly...

We never even had a lead in the game. Not once. Against Akron.

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

I admire Akron for its previous success, but this year they return one starter, were picked to finish behind Ohio in the MAC, have a new coach, and were at the bottom of the conference with Ohio. In year 4 of our coach and the system, with most of our players back, I'd expect to be able to take a lead at some point in the game vs. that team.

Alan Swank
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 4:14:00 PM

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

4 out of 10? Proof please.

bn9
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 4:22:14 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

4 out of 10? Proof please.

Stayed (Baltic, Cooper, Keely, Ric, TJ, Nick, Stevie Taylor) 7
Left (Kinney, Horne, Coleman, Jacobs, Goard) 5

I could be wrong, but those came from my memory of who stayed and who left. If Coleman was a TOS recruit, I am sorry and it goes to 36.363636363636% (which is still roughly 40% in my mind.)

Recovering Journalist
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 4:25:30 PM

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

Some of that was lack of retention by choice. Few of those who left made much of a mark on any other hardcourt. Unlike say, um, Ryan Taylor.

bn9
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RE: Last in the MAC

Posted: 1/24/2018 4:28:59 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

I don't get the "against Akron" comment. In the last 11 years, they have played in the MAC championship game 9 times. We've played 3.

Some of that was lack of retention by choice. Few of those who left made much of a mark on any other hardcourt. Unlike say, um, Ryan Taylor.

But what does Ryan Talyor have to do with John Groce?

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