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Topic: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Topic: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

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FearLeon
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Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 9:37:54 AM

This topic deserves its own thread to be updated moving forward.

As Ohio Head Basketball Coach through 2-14-2025:

Akron 4-8
Kent State 6-7
Toledo 1-9

Career record: 11-24

Truly mind-boggling.

That one MAC tourney win against Tod K in 2021 has saved Boals up to this point.

Last Edited: 2/15/2025 9:51:40 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

shabamon
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 10:09:04 AM

FearLeon wrote:

You can make the argument that Toledo semifibal game was the most pivotal in Boals' tenure (IMO this was also BVP's best game in his Ohio career).

Keep in mind also that the Kent quarterfinals game, they were down one or two starters.

Cats5
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 11:13:11 AM

Every time these threads pop up, it�s truly brain rot.

GraffZ06
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 12:21:47 PM

He's 500 against Kent. That's not even bad. That's good.

Akron and Toledo haven't been as nice, but they've been the top 2 schools outside of us during his tenure. Compare ANY coach to the top teams in their league and check their records.

Toledo is really the only "outlier" and it's just weird bc they dominate us home and away. But if Jeff was 4-6 against Toledo instead of 1-9, nobody would be saying anything.

So yes, let's judge a coach based on 3 games over 6 years and look past the overall record (body of work) and success in March.

That's a great way to run good coaches out of town.

FearLeon
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 12:47:30 PM

Last Edited: 2/15/2025 12:52:30 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

FearLeon
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 12:53:27 PM

shabamon wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

You can make the argument that Toledo semifibal game was the most pivotal in Boals' tenure (IMO this was also BVP's best game in his Ohio career).

I agree. Imagine if that one Toledo win did not happen and we could be sitting here potentially six seasons into the Boals era with zero MAC Tournament Championship game appearances? Conversation on here would be interesting.

Last Edited: 2/15/2025 12:54:50 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 4:38:03 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Boals won with a team whose two best players were recruited by someone else. He deserves credit for getting more out of them than Saul did, but if you look at what he's done with teams he fully recruited, the results are both underwhelming and trending in the wrong direction.

Other coaches in the MAC thought we were the most talented team in the league and picked us to win this year. We've been a .500 team, and first time through still haven't beat the teams Boals consistently struggles to beat.

There are some folks with their head in the sand refusing to acknowledge what is pretty clear because Jeff Boals is a good guy, and players like playing for him. But we're squandering a talented senior class, still don't have a big on the roster next year, and you have to squint awfully hard and imagine very substantial leaps forward from current guys to see next year as much better than this year.

Sure, transfer portal means you never know, but Boals' recruiting track record is not looking all that great relative to his predecessors.

I know the same few people will insist all of this is unfair, but it feels pretty likely that in two seasons what a lot of people are saying now will be pretty undeniable.

Last Edited: 2/15/2025 6:35:40 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

GraffZ06
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 6:50:30 PM

Akron/Toledo/Kent record against Ohio under Boals: 24-11 .686
Akron/Toledo/Kent record against rest of MAC: 219-88 .713

Only 4 teams have winning MAC records in league since 2019 including the tournament:
Akron 85-28 .752 / 8-2 in tournament
Toledo 83-31 .728 / 5-4 in tourney
Kent 75-40 .652 / 8-3 in tourney
Ohio 68-42 .618 / 7-3 in tourney

Boals has 4th best league record overall, 3rd best tournament record, and is 1st in NCAA wins.

He's also now 6th on Ohio's all-time wins list with 111, and 4th on Ohio's all-time winning percentage list at .607 (behind only Finsterwald .850, Christian .690 and Nee .615).

Jeff's home winning percentage is 2nd in Ohio history at .814, behind only Finsterwald's 1.000 going 22-0.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/15/2025 11:46:30 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Look, I get it, but the entire conversation about Boals basically boils down to two sides of folks, both of whom are saying Boals' performance makes us the 4th best team in the conference for the last few years.

One group says that like it's a good thing; the other like it's not good enough.

So, I guess, the question is: how many years like the last two/this year are okay before it's not okay anymore?

FJC31
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 10:50:34 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

You�re just going to have to let the folks who think it�s a good thing to decide for themselves. There�s a lot of straw grasping right now. The Virginia win becomes less relevant and less of an argument with each passing year that continues to trend in the wrong direction.

Miami is ascending in the right direction and UMass joins the MAC next season. The argument for being among the top 4 could very well turn into the top 6 moving forward. Then what?

BillyTheCat
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 11:11:46 AM

I�d love to see some folks on here be an AD or a GM, be firing coaches like George Steinbrenner fired Billy Martin.

Alan Swank
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 1:00:50 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

The home winning record is irrelevant when you consider who we bring into play in the early part of the season. Muskingum, Defiance, UC Clermont, Heidelberg and Rio Grande all come to mind.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 2:46:43 PM

The most ill-advised firings of OHIO coaches in my lifetime, IMHO:

Basketball -- Larry Hunter
Football -- Brian Burke

Both had had a few down years, but had a lot left in the tank in term of coaching skills and I think we would have done better keeping them, compared to what we got with the next coach up.

So, one must be aware that changing coaches is not always the brightest move. I would add that I also thought that Saul should have been given one more year. Some who are now making excuses for Boals because of injuries, would not do the same for Saul. Not sure why.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

GraffZ06
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 3:24:57 PM

This year isn't even done with so not sure how you can judge anything about it. Is this year a failure if we win the championship in Cleveland? How about lose in the finals? I'd call both a resounding success.

If we get the 3 seed and draw Ball St and Miami in first 2 rounds I think it's distinctly possible if not probable.

Even as a 4 seed, the toughest part would be Kent in round 1, but then getting by Toledo in the semis is a very winnable game given their historical tournament issues.

FWIW I don't think anybody is beating Akron.

But to answer your question, given our limitations based on geography, academics and budgets - I choose to grade Boals against his peers as prior HC at OU. That's the apples to apples comparison.

I also understand that success in college basketball is about competing for national championships, which means in a 1-bid league that nothing matters but March.

Sure the rest of the games matter insomuch as they are preparation for health, comraderie, momentum, and seeding for Cleveland. But that's it.

Jim Snyder made 7 NCAAs in 26 years.
Dale Bandy had 0 in 6 years.
Danny Nee had 2 in 7 years.
Billy Hahn had 0 in 3 years.
Larry Hunter had 1 in 12 years.
Tim O'Shea had 1 in 7 years.
John Groce had 2 in 4 years.
Jim Christian had 0 in 2 years.
Saul Phillps had 0 in 5 years.
Jeff Boals has 1 in 4 years (no tourney COVID year).

Historically that's 14 appearances in 74 years. That's 1 appearance every 5.3 years on average.

Only Snyder, Groce and Nee have more appearances or less time between appearances.

I think it's safe to say Snyder was the best ever with John Groce a clear #2.

Danny Nees career record was 107-67 .615. His 107 wins ranks 7th all time at OU.
His 615 winning pct ranks 3rd behind Finsterwald and Christian.

Jeff Boals career record is 111-72 .607.
His 111 wins ranks 6th all time.
His 607 winning pct ranks 4th.

If Boals gets to the NCAAs one more time in the next 3 seasons including this one he matches Nees rate there too.

Their career performance has been eerily similar and you can argue the case for either as #3 or #4 in OU history in NCAA era.

So sure if you want to talk about firing the equivalent of Danny Nee because you don't like his regular season record against Toledo, just know what you're asking for.

My expectations for our program are that we are annually one of the top 4 teams in the conference, have an expectation of making the conference semis every year, conference finals every 2-4 years. An NCAA appearance every 5 years and a win or two in the dance every couple appearances.

If you expect more than that, fine. I'm all for it. Just show me the 7 figure sack of money you're bringing to the table eacj year to make it happen.

Casper71
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 3:41:31 PM

Graff, interesting numbers, but like any numbers you can make them say anything you want to. Just look at the schedules that were played in Jim Snyder�s era. I don�t think any D3 or many cupcakes. I believe even Nee too probably had much tougher schedules than Boals does. I want the current Coach to succeed. I watched him play and he got the most out of his skill set But I simply think he hasn�t really recruited the kind of roster needed to win nowadays.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 5:08:32 PM

Casper71 wrote:

You may want to look on the other thread on this topic where OCF made the same comment. Until Snyder got hot, he play an awful lot of OAC schools and some non-schools

Alan Swank
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 5:52:56 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

But to answer your question, given our limitations based on geography, academics and budgets -

Care to expound on that? We have the best arena in the conference, academically are near the top, and just because a school pays its head coach more, do we expect that same coach to win more games? Explain these so called limitations. Or, is it our lack of money to pay to get and retain players?

GraffZ06
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 7:26:07 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

But to answer your question, given our limitations based on geography, academics and budgets -

I consider our geography, academics an budget all LIMITING factors for our success.

Athens is a small town, in rural SE Ohio, with zilch for large cities or business $$.
Within 1 hour you have - nothing (Parkersburg 28k and Lancaster 41k don't count)
Within 2 hours you have - Columbus metro 2.2M (wholly behind O$U) and Charleston 46k
WIthin 3 hours you have - Dayton metro 754k (UD and WSU), Cincinnati metro 1.8M (UC and X plus UD/Miami/O$U/UK/Louisville), Akron/Canton metro 698k (Akron and Kent), Wheeling 25k and Morgantown 31k (WVU).

That's access to like a TOTAL of 150k in population within 3 hours with loyalty/rooting interest in the Bobcats to stir up business and sponsorships.

We all know our budget limitations, so I won't hit that dead horse.

And yes academics, both from a university standpoint for admissions as well as our staff preferences - limits the pool of players we can/want to go after.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 8:17:34 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

But to answer your question, given our limitations based on geography, academics and budgets -

The fact that Huntington is the same size as Lancaster Ohio and Charleston is just higher kind of blows my mind.

Alan Swank
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 10:04:00 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

But to answer your question, given our limitations based on geography, academics and budgets -

What are you actually saying in this post? It makes no sense to me at all.

GraffZ06
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/16/2025 10:21:06 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

But to answer your question, given our limitations based on geography, academics and budgets -

What are you actually saying in this post? It makes no sense to me at all.

We lack access to population centers with large companies and donors.
We lack access to large internal operating budgets.
We have high academic standards.

None of those HELP US get ahead in basketball.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/17/2025 6:37:43 AM

GraffZ06 wrote:

We have high academic standards.

Sorry, but can somebody explain to me how this has become accepted doctrine here? We're a top 200 national university; we're not the highest rated national university in our conference, and we accept 85% of applicants. We can get any basketball player who wants to come here accepted.

greencat
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/17/2025 6:50:48 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

We have high academic standards.

Any kid who is in the bottom 15% academically probably shouldn't be a priority.

Without naming an obvious name, that was found out not that long ago.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/17/2025 7:50:49 AM

greencat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

We have high academic standards.

Any kid who is in the bottom 15% academically probably shouldn't be a priority.

Without naming an obvious name, that was found out not that long ago.

Sure, but the idea that our academics somehow are a hindrance athletically seems off to me. We're not a particularly hard school to get into and if we want a guy, we can pretty much always get him accepted.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Boals Career Record Against The Big 3: Akron-Toledo-Kent

Posted: 2/17/2025 8:14:27 AM

GraffZ06 wrote:

So sure if you want to talk about firing the equivalent of Danny Nee because you don't like his regular season record against Toledo, just know what you're asking for.

My expectations for our program are that we are annually one of the top 4 teams in the conference, have an expectation of making the conference semis every year, conference finals every 2-4 years. An NCAA appearance every 5 years and a win or two in the dance every couple appearances.

If you expect more than that, fine. I'm all for it. Just show me the 7 figure sack of money you're bringing to the table eacj year to make it happen.

There's not a single person here saying that we should fire Jeff Boals. Right now. We're pointing out a concerning trend line, mediocre results, and wondering how long that's acceptable. Everybody likes Jeff Boals; he's a good guy, het gets guys to play hard, and they seem to like playing for him. That's not nothing.

But it's disingenuous to insist that people want to fire Boals because of "his regular season record against Toledo." People are concerned that Jeff Boals is trending in the wrong direction. A big part of that is his inability to beat Akron, Toledo, and Kent State consistently. If you're the 4th best program in the conference, statistically, NCAA tournament appearances are going to come sparingly. Another big part of it are his recruiting struggles. It's been covered ad nauseam here, but I don't think there's much debating that Boals hasn't brought in enough high end talent, and we all know the issue with bigs.

You laid out your expectations for an Ohio coach -- conference semis every year, conference finals every 2-4, and NCAA tournament every 5 years.

If you toss out the Covid year, Boals is now at one NCAA tournament appearance every 5 years (assuming this mediocre team doesn't go on a weird run). We've been the the semis every year, but we haven't played for a MAC championship since in 3 seasons, likely to be 4 after this year.

By your own standards, a couple more years like the last few take Boals off track, How long do you accept being the 3rd or 4th best team in the league and getting beat consistently by Akron/Kent/Toledo? What if UMass ends up on that list? Miami is trending upwards while we're trending downwards.

When does the seat get hot?

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