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General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events

Topic: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Topic: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

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TWT
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Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/1/2015 12:33:46 AM

A came across a good article on the merit aid arms race I'd like to share. Ohio State led all universities in 2013-14 distributing merit aid to 2,126 freshman out of class of 7,121. Miami University was 5th in merit aid distributing it to 1,139 out of a freshman class of 3,637. I believe the quote from OUPride was OSU gave $91 million in merit aid and Miami gave out $29 million over the same time period. Pricing model can vary at schools. Miami takes the approach of pricing itself high then deep discounting. Ohio prices itself to be affordable compared with the other state schools but hasn't (until now) offered wide merit aid discounts. Based on the signature award formula Ohio will be giving out about $30 million dollars in a few years and be right up with Miami in the merit aid rankings.

https://static.newamerica.org/attachments/3120-out-of-sta...

https://www.ohio.edu/compass/stories/13-14/1/OHIO-Signatu...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

DelBobcat
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/1/2015 8:57:54 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Should be a good thing for our national reputation. Also noted that OSU had a freshman class of 7,121 this year but in 2015 had a graduating class of over 11,000. Lots of transfers from the regional campuses.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OUPride
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/2/2015 11:33:08 AM

For Ohio State, I believe it was 91 million in need-based aid and 62 million in merit aid. Not going to look up the common data sets again, but I think the numbers for Ohio were $29M need/$3M merit for Ohio and 28M need/32M merit for Miami. From you link, I don't see how the signature awards take up up to $30m/year overall much less solely in merit aid.

Miami says that they "have to" recruit oos because of financial conditions, but I really wonder how much of that is just cover for being driven out of the state to look for top students by OSU, particularly since they charge over 20% higher tuition than either Ohio or OSU. Other than kids of alumni and those that fit the Miami profile to a T, I would bet that Miami is simply losing the battle for the top-tier in-state kids.

Also, from what I found on the web, that 11,000 was osu's total commencement. Less than 8,000 undergraduate degrees. OSU accepts about 1200 transfer students per year as opposed to 600 at Ohio, so the percentages for the student bodies aren't much different.

https://news.osu.edu/news/2015/05/10/facts-on-spring-2015... /

Last Edited: 9/2/2015 12:38:59 PM by OUPride

David E Brightbill
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/2/2015 9:43:24 PM

OUPride wrote:

Just to clarify students coming from regional campuses are not transfers. Tranfers come from outside the institution.

OUPride
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/2/2015 10:28:59 PM

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Just to clarify students coming from regional campuses are not transfers. Tranfers come from outside the institution.

I looked it up for the other thread in the football forum. At Ohio, it's called "relocating, and Ohio's website is very vague about what the requirements are. At OSU, they are specifically identified as transfer students and have to apply as such. I think I linked the OSU page in the other thread, so I'm not going to find it again. The numbers make sense too. If their freshman classes are 7100 and they're taking in another 1200-1300 transfers from branch campuses and other sources, that's 8300-8400 new students a year. Figure an average 5-6 year time to graduation, and you get right around the 43,000 undergrads at the Columbus campus. It also corresponds with the number of undergraduate degrees that they're granting.

Alan Swank
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/3/2015 9:19:00 AM

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Just to clarify students coming from regional campuses are not transfers. Tranfers come from outside the institution.

We may not call them transfers but in talking with many high school students who tell me they are going to the Newark branch of osu or the Lancaster branch of OU, they say "and then I'll transfer to the main campus."

DelBobcat
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/3/2015 10:21:06 AM

OUPride wrote:

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Just to clarify students coming from regional campuses are not transfers. Transfers come from outside the institution.

I don't have time right now to look into the stats or find the articles but I have read multiple articles about how universities "game" the U.S. News rankings and Ohio State is always mentioned as one of the biggest offenders. They do have a large amount of students "relocating" from regional campuses and if you look at their main campus freshmen class vs. their regional campuses they have one of the largest disparities in ACT scores, class rank, high school GPA, etc.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OUPride
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/3/2015 11:20:47 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

I'd like to see any reference to OSU gaming the USN&WR because I never have. I've read about Duke encouraging unqualified applicants to apply so they could have a lower acceptance rate, and I read about Clemson downgrading similar schools in the peer assessment while grading themselves like Harvard or Chicago. Never heard anything about OSU.

I know the thing for some is to pretend that there's nothing good about OSU in order to feel better about Ohio, but you're wrong on the transfer thing. I found the page. Same requirements to "change campuses" as to apply from an outside university--which as I noted in the other thread are steeper (30 vs 20 hours and higher GPA for certain colleges) than transfer requirements at Ohio.

http://campuschange.osu.edu/process.html

As for their branch campuses, of course there would be a bigger disparity with Columbus since their main campus is so hard to get into. I tried to compare them, but Ohio doesn't publicize a common data set for their branch campuses. OSU does, and here's what I found. Their middle 50% ACT scores are as follows:

Mansfield 21-25 ACT middle range
Newark 20-25
Marion 21-25
Lima 19-25
Columbus 27-31
Ohio--Athens is 22-26

In other words, Ohio is closer to OSU's branch campuses than they are to Columbus. It also tells me that OSU is sending a lot of kids with 23-26 on their ACT to a branch campus who would be easy admits at Athens, so it's not surprising that they are doing well enough at the branch campus to transfer to Columbus at a high rate.

As for transfers, I don't have a problem with any school--Ohio or OSU or Miami--giving kids a pathway to a second chance at admission. These are still public universities. While they don't maintain in-house branch campuses, UCLA and Berkeley do accept thousands of transfers from the California community college system each year.

One can bury their head in the sand about it and say it's all faked and Ohio has nothing to worry about. Or, one can take it seriously and as a challenge for how Ohio needs to improve and become more competitive. Complacency is not what Ohio needs right now. Wes had some great ideas about recruiting in the South and Mid-Atlantic. I've pointed out how much Ohio needs to increase merit aid to compete with Miami and OSU. All you seem to be saying is that none of it is real so why worry. [[AlfredENeuman.jpg]]

BillyTheCat
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/3/2015 11:41:53 AM

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Just to clarify students coming from regional campuses are not transfers. Tranfers come from outside the institution.

And to further clarify, as already been pointed out on these boards the OSU Regional Campuses have higher requirements than OHIO's.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/3/2015 11:42:52 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Just to clarify students coming from regional campuses are not transfers. Tranfers come from outside the institution.

Correct, and that's largely due to economic reasons, if they can get 1 to 2 years in while living at home that's a 5 figure savings.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/3/2015 11:45:33 AM

OUPride: Good stuff, and thanks for bringing some facts into the conversations instead of relying solely on emotion. We all love OHIO, but to make ourselves feel better by tearing others down is NOT the right way to go about things.

OUPride
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/4/2015 12:24:58 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

And to further clarify, as already been pointed out on these boards the OSU Regional Campuses have higher requirements than OHIO's.

I think all branch campuses are open admission under Ohio law. Where I think OSU is separating itself is in having a large pool of kids with good, but not great, stats (23-26 on their ACT and top half--but not top quarter--of HS class) who are willing to go to a branch campus for a year or two before transferring to Columbus. That they have a higher talent pool at their branch campuses, means that they can have higher transfer requirements provided they stay in line with basic guidelines the state sets up.

At the upper end of that pool, we're talking about kids who would be in the top half (some in the top quarter) of Ohio's freshman class. They can't all be commuters from Newark or Lima, so I wonder what opportunity there is for Ohio to recruit them to Athens. Every one that we do creates a 20-22 kid that we send to a branch campus for a year or two. Ohio's freshman class profile increases, and quality attracts quality.

I'll say also that Ohio has too many branch campuses (twice the number that OSU does), and branch campus enrollment is fully 36% of Ohio's total undergraduate enrollment as opposed to 12% at OSU. The smaller system that OSU set up seems to be much more conducive to being used strategically to help the main campus. Ohio's is just too big and too unruly that I've never gotten a real sense of how it helps move Ohio--Athens forward.

David E Brightbill
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/4/2015 3:46:37 PM

OUPride wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

And to further clarify, as already been pointed out on these boards the OSU Regional Campuses have higher requirements than OHIO's.

You are misinformed a student on a Ohio University regional campus is a Ohio University student there is not transfer when coming to Athens. It is not unruly it is providing opportunities for students to pursue their career goals nearer to home. It furthers the mission of Ohio by giving students who might not otherwise be able to afford 4 years at in Athens the ability to get 2 years at a lower cost or in some cases depending on the major their 4 year degree. Again there are second class students in OU's system you are an Ohio University student period, whether on a regional campus or the Athens campus. A fact you should be proud of I know I am.

Last Edited: 9/4/2015 3:47:26 PM by David E Brightbill

Alan Swank
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/4/2015 4:52:25 PM

David E Brightbill wrote:

OUPride wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

And to further clarify, as already been pointed out on these boards the OSU Regional Campuses have higher requirements than OHIO's.

Did someone hack Dave's account because that is about as poorly a written post as I've seen on here in some time.

Last Edited: 9/4/2015 5:09:03 PM by Alan Swank

TWT
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 12:52:11 AM

Ohio State until recently didn't attract the out-of-state student. They are setting a target of 35% out-of-state. They've benefited from the online age of college shopping where all the parents have instant access to the rankings. They've become a backup school for the very high profile colleges in the rankings because they are a Big Ten research school with a big merit aid discount. The reputation score is a function of faculty pay and OSU is aligning itself as a peer of Harvard, Yale and the University of Chicago due to having some of the top researchers in the world. Ohio University if it could invest more in faculty would help the Athens economy and attracting better students to campus.

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2015/06/02/ohio-...

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2015/06/01/ohio-...

Average Professor Salary and number of Full Professors

University of Virginia $192,839 (763)
University of North Carolina $191,377 (656)
Penn State University $183,864 (800)
Case Western Reserve $179,890 (459)
University of Pittsburgh $179,415 (963)
Georgia Institute of Technology $176,025 (425)
Ohio State University $172,529 (1,173)
University of Tennessee $164,753 (710)
Virginia Polytechnic University $161,000 (572)
University at Buffalo $159,565 (504)
West Virginia University $155,804 (476)
University of Louisville $154,205 (554)
University of Kentucky $148,910 (616)
University of Cincinnati $147,841 (504)
University of Akron $146,468 (263)
Kent State University $145,033 (171)
Miami University $142,299 (219)
Ohio University $133,347 (227)
University of Georgia $133,318 (725)
Bowling Green State University $131,260 (157)
Appalachian State University $120,876 (276)
James Madison University $119,168 (283)
Youngstown State University $114,075 (139)
Marshall University $99,136 (243)

http://www.startclass.com /

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 9:46:31 AM

I think the notion of attracting better faculty and better students is very much intertwined. I know that one of the primary arguments that OSU made in the 80s to undo Rhodes' mandate of open admissions is that they were having a hard time recruiting faculty of an equal stature to those who had joined OSU in the 40s and 50s and were retiring. Lesser quality faculty meant fewer research dollars coming into the state. I think it's a lot easier to attract a talented faculty and researchers if that candidate knows that he's going to deal with classes full of kids who scored 28-32 on the ACT.

Wes, what do you think about my idea to heavily recruit the better kids that OSU is sending to branch campuses to Athens? They'd increase our student profile, and I don't think any would transfer to OSU once they settled into college in Athens.

Alan Swank
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 10:04:12 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Not sure where you source came up with those numbers for OU, but this two year old study reflects vastly different numbers.

http://web.ysu.edu/gen/ysu_generated_bin/documents/basic_...

and this one from OU from last year does too:

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/faculty/salaries.html

And here is a rather scary chart which reflects a fairly significant decline in the number of Group 1 full time faculty over the past 7 years all while enrollments increase. Larger classes taught by non-group 1 faculty.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/faculty/group1faculty.html

Last Edited: 9/7/2015 10:34:07 AM by Alan Swank

Mike Johnson
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 11:58:56 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Just a few reflections, not meant to be argumentative.

While at Ohio, I never had a part-time or adjunct prof. The profs I did have ranged from fabulous to "how did you ever land a job here or keep one?"

At Marshall Law, I had two or three adjuncts and they were superb, combining academic smarts with on-the-street experience.

At Stanford, no part-timers or adjuncts and, with two exceptions, the profs I had were terrific, bringing to the classroom experience as board members of major companies. The two exceptions? One was bored - and boring - and the other possessed knowledge that was on the shallow side. We also had guest lecturers such as former secretaries of state George Schultz and Condi Rice and Intel founder Andy Gove.

I know that schools like to tout their faculty members with terminal degrees, but overall I appreciated the profs who brought at least a modicum of street creds to the classroom.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

BillyTheCat
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 1:25:37 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Those are some interesting and in ways disturbing numbers.

TWT
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 3:01:08 PM

OUPride wrote:

OUPride, I don't believe targeting OSU branch campus students to enroll in the dorms of Ohio University is worth the effort. For one there is only 6500 students at any given time at the branch campuses. That is for 2 years of enrollment so you are looking at 3250 freshman at those branch. The upper quartile of those students (812) has ACT of 25. Ohio State has always been a school that puts the ACT as the priority over the GPA. I'm willing to bet money that those students with +25 ACT are probably sub 3.0 GPA. Ohio for admitting students takes a balanced GPA/ACT approach and that is why their graduation rates are always higher than the predicted rates.

OSU is benefiting from the national trend in applying to Big Ten schools as a safety net and for this years class their average ACT is 28.8. They are beyond competition at this point. The primary competition for Ohio is Miami 24-29 (3.7) and Kent State 20-25 (3.3). Kent State has 6,000 freshman of which the upper quartile (talking 1500 students here) would be automatic Ohio admits. KSU has 3,500 students in their business school. Miami has higher stats than Ohio but keep in mind they only have 3,300 freshman to Ohio's 4,500. They also have 3,000 students majoring in business. Ohio I believe only has 2,400 majoring in business. McDavis has said the business school has outgrown Copeland and they are talking about fundraising for another business school building that would sit behind BW3. A building with more academic offices and a cafe like the new Journalism and Engineering buildings have would attract students and faculty.

A realistic target I believe for the main campus is a class that is 24-28 (3.6) with 30% out-of-state (up from 22-26, 3.4, 23%). The branch campus system is very important to Ohio though because the state's new funding formula provides money based on degree completion. The number of degrees awarded at Ohio has increased from 4,025 in 2007-08 to 6,301 in 2013-14. Student retention has become important and that is where those signature awards I believe will help to retain students because if they transfer out they'll lose scholarship money.

https://www.ohiohighered.org/sites/ohiohighered.org/files...

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/factbook.pdf

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

TWT
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 4:05:37 PM

Alan, the data you provided shows some of the different models that schools are using. Ohio has done away with lectures/instructors but has a high percentage of associate and assistant professors. Bowling Green is able to stay in business by having less full time professors. Ohio State's higher pay is mostly concentrated in the research faculty. Ohio's reputation as a strong liberal arts school goes back to the Alden and Ping days when the school hired many professors from top universities. In 1970 Ohio very much had a new campus and was very attractive at the time. Cities were reeling because of the 1968 riots and nobody wanted to go to school in the South. Ohio's going to have to invest more in faculty to keep up. Adding 200 more professors does a lot more for the economy of Athens than 200 more students. A lower student to faculty ratio would help Ohio in the rankings.

Full Time Professors from Table 3

Ohio State 2,178
Cincinnati 1,166
Ohio 663
Kent State 652
Akron 650
Miami 599
Bowling Green 532
Wright State 477
Cleveland State 441
Youngstown State 395
Shawnee State 118

http://web.ysu.edu/gen/ysu_generated_bin/documents/basic_...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Alan Swank
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 6:26:08 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

It amazes me where you continue to come up with these "facts" that you seem to state with authority. If OU has done away with lectures, the memo never made it to the department of modern languages.

http://modlang.ohio.edu/people /

TWT
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 7:01:35 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

I got it from your own source Alan.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Alan Swank
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 7:18:28 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

I got it from your own source Alan.

Touche but which according to the modern languages page, was bad info. The reason I went looking for that was my neighbor is a lecturer so I knew that OU hasn't done away with them. At the end of the day probably more than half of the numbers that are being put out there as fact are bogus.

TWT
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RE: Merit Aid (Arms Race)

Posted: 9/7/2015 7:53:42 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

I got it from your own source Alan.

I did see 8 lecturers Alan on the college of engineering page against about 117 professors for the college. Arts and Sciences page has 8 lecturers to 236 professors. There are some around but it probably reporting. The real point is Ohio State has 3 times as many professors as Ohio and pays 30% more. Their faculty is out of OU's league.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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