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Topic:  Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?

Topic:  Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/10/2012 10:17:19 AM 
One retired teacher here. Shame on the Chicago teachers. JMHO. 

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/10/2012 12:25:02 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
One retired teacher here. Shame on the Chicago teachers. JMHO. 


Tell us why please.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/10/2012 12:51:45 PM 
One teacher here. Need more facts.

Last Edited: 9/10/2012 12:52:24 PM by bobcatsquared
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MedinaCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 10:00:43 AM 
So teachers are only qualified to speak on this subject?  What about the opinions of parents, tax payers, administrators, etc?  And I respect Bobcatsquared.  Too often people spew opinion without knowing the facts,  But that's life on a message board, eh?   

Last Edited: 9/11/2012 10:05:31 AM by MedinaCat
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 11:25:26 AM 
They were offered a 4%/year raises for four years and make an average of $76,000 annually already.  They are striking to avoid having measurable job performance metrics and accountability for their students' academic progress.  This is a ridiculous strike that tells me the teachers are far more interested in their own status quo than they are in providing quality education to their students.  Shame on them as a group for forgetting what their professional mission is and using the students as pawns in their game.  They are fairly compensated and should want to thin the herd of poorly performing teachers.  If this was going on in my local school system, I'd be very disturbed.     

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 12:47:59 PM 
MedinaCat wrote:
So teachers are only qualified to speak on this subject?  What about the opinions of parents, tax payers, administrators, etc?  And I respect Bobcatsquared.  Too often people spew opinion without knowing the facts,  But that's life on a message board, eh?   
.


Good point. I did not intend to restrict replies. Sorry, please add any of your thoughts. Readers may be interested to know if your perspective.  There are plenty of facts.  Me, I am retired military, a retired teacher, a former teachers union member, a member of theretired teachers association and I stand by my first comment. Shame on the Chicago Teachers.

Last Edited: 9/13/2012 10:15:11 PM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 1:01:08 PM 
bobcat695 wrote:
They were offered a 4%/year raises for four years and make an average of $76,000 annually already.  They are striking to avoid having measurable job performance metrics and accountability for their students' academic progress.  This is a ridiculous strike that tells me the teachers are far more interested in their own status quo than they are in providing quality education to their students.  Shame on them as a group for forgetting what their professional mission is and using the students as pawns in their game.  They are fairly compensated and should want to thin the herd of poorly performing teachers.  If this was going on in my local school system, I'd be very disturbed.     


Thanks for providing facts.  Glad you were not timid about  commenting.  Around the country most districts average way less than $60,000 per teacher and increases are rarely annual.  Districts are in financial trouble everywhere and Chicago reportedly has a deficit of hundreds of millions.  This is not the time for some of the highest paid in the profession to walk away from their students.  Illinois needs some Ohio/Wisconsin attention to the problem.  JMHO

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 5:06:45 PM 

Haven't followd this at all.  But, after watching The Wire on HBO, I sure do not want to be held accountable for the academic achievements of inner-city public school students. 

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 6:33:19 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
bobcat695 wrote:
They were offered a 4%/year raises for four years and make an average of $76,000 annually already.  They are striking to avoid having measurable job performance metrics and accountability for their students' academic progress.  This is a ridiculous strike that tells me the teachers are far more interested in their own status quo than they are in providing quality education to their students.  Shame on them as a group for forgetting what their professional mission is and using the students as pawns in their game.  They are fairly compensated and should want to thin the herd of poorly performing teachers.  If this was going on in my local school system, I'd be very disturbed.     


Thanks for providing facts.  Glad you were not timid about  commenting.  Around the country most districts average way less than $60,000 per teacher and increases are rarely annual.  Districts are in financial trouble everywhere and Chicago reportedly has a deficit of hundreds of millions.  This is not the time for some of the highest paid in the profession to walk away from their students.  Illinois needs some Ohio/Wisconsin attention to the problem.  JMHO


This is why teachers as a group are underpaid.  So many people run the guilt trip of "you're hurting the students."  Well, if they're that important, pay them.  i probably have as much experience as anyone on this site in terms of working in the public and private schools in diverse locales.   There are many great teachers out there that do it for the love of the game and there are many out there that i would love to take with me when I leave a building so that they never return.  Got to work with one of the former today in Ohio and another one in KY two weeks ago.  If I was starting a school, they both would get hired the first day.  Some of us may be experts when it comes to OU athletics but most of us are novices when it comes to public education today and especially public education in an urban environment.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/11/2012 11:03:59 PM 
I don't know much, but I'm always for sticking it to Rahm Emanuel.

The idea of merit pay sounds good in theory, but it's dicey at best in practice. How are you going to determine if a teacher is doing a good job? How do you isolate a teacher's performance from the myriad other factors that go into a student's success that a teacher has no control over? And so on.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Walkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 1:29:48 AM 
JSF wrote:
I don't know much, but I'm always for sticking it to Rahm Emanuel.

The idea of merit pay sounds good in theory, but it's dicey at best in practice. How are you going to determine if a teacher is doing a good job? How do you isolate a teacher's performance from the myriad other factors that go into a student's success that a teacher has no control over? And so on.



Each district is different, yet, every teacher is evaluated annually, usually by their principal.  Principals are in the building every day and over the course of 170+ school days it becomes clear who are the most effective teachers. I do not believe merit pay is a fix for anything wrong in education. Schools districts are so diverse; urban/rural, big/small, wealthy/poor, I have no clue how anyone would think they could administer education nationally.

Last Edited: 9/12/2012 10:48:01 AM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 8:01:02 AM 
Bcat2 wrote:
JSF wrote:
I don't know much, but I'm always for sticking it to Rahm Emanuel.

The idea of merit pay sounds good in theory, but it's dicey at best in practice. How are you going to determine if a teacher is doing a good job? How do you isolate a teacher's performance from the myriad other factors that go into a student's success that a teacher has no control over? And so on.



Each district is different, yet, every teacher is evaluated annually, usually by their principal.  Principals are in the building every day and over the course of 170+ school days it becomes clear who are the most effective teachers. I do not believe merit pay is a fix for anything wrong in education. Schools ditricts are so diverse; urban/rural, big/small, wealthy/poor, I have no clue how anyone would think they could administer education nationally.


As the spouse of a teacher in Ohio, I pay some attention to this issue and I have mixed feelings.  I'm a taxpayer, too.  But when it comes to merit pay, my corporate experience tells me that the education "associations" and their press agents are very good at blowing smoke up the a^%$# of their members and the public.

You want performance metrics that are measurable?  How about continuing education achievements, professionalism, work attendance, (School) community activism, innovation, adaptation, "works well with others" (this one is HUGE).  That's a pretty good list in my world and we haven't gotten to the daily work results part yet.  It's doable, it just isn't going to be popular because the idea of step raises and early retirement is so engrained in this system.  BTW, my teacher-wife, who lost her job due to the selfish interests of a union run by "lifers" is 100% on board with the merit pay / reward system.  She just doesn't have a job anymore.
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 8:47:20 AM 
My wife is a teacher, also.  (bobcatbob will be amused to know she used to teach at Coolville Elem.)  The combination of the union at Federal Hocking Schools and several of the veteren teachers there at the time hammers home the need for a housecleaning at a bunch of schools.  As was posted earlier, it doesn't take a long time in each school to figure out who is good and who is not.  The principals know, but unless there is something illegal done, the positions are all based on seniority.  The teachers unions are directly responsible for the dumbing down of America.  They protect the bottom feeders, not the stars.  If you do some research, you will find very little support for the teachers unions among the teachers with the most accolades.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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Tim Burke
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 10:23:23 AM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Principals are in the building every day and over the course of 170+ school days it becomes clear who are the most effective teachers. I do not believe merit pay is a fix for anything wrong in education. Schools ditricts are so diverse; urban/rural, big/small, wealthy/poor, I have no clue how anyone would think they could administer education nationally.


This implies principals are competent.

Merit pay does not work, and it takes a very ignorant person to not be able to figure out immediately why it does not work. 

Ohio '99 EMU '00 USF '08(?)

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 1:10:58 PM 
Tim Burke wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Principals are in the building every day and over the course of 170+ school days it becomes clear who are the most effective teachers. I do not believe merit pay is a fix for anything wrong in education. Schools ditricts are so diverse; urban/rural, big/small, wealthy/poor, I have no clue how anyone would think they could administer education nationally.


This implies principals are competent.

Merit pay does not work, and it takes a very ignorant person to not be able to figure out immediately why it does not work. 


It would work better than the alternative, which is the mess we now have.  Yes, there are some bad principals and some would make bad decisions, but I'd rather have someone in a position to try to weed out the bad teachers than continue to allow the system to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 1:50:32 PM 
Tim Burke wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Principals are in the building every day and over the course of 170+ school days it becomes clear who are the most effective teachers. I do not believe merit pay is a fix for anything wrong in education. Schools ditricts are so diverse; urban/rural, big/small, wealthy/poor, I have no clue how anyone would think they could administer education nationally.


This implies principals are competent.

Merit pay does not work, and it takes a very ignorant person to not be able to figure out immediately why it does not work. 


Why does merit pay work in virtually every other profession except teaching?  I know you have moved from a student to an educator, but saying I am ignorant because I believe good teachers should be paid more, and bad teachers should be shown the door is not a good argument.  My wife teaches and my kids go to school.  The kids are the only ones in the school each day measured on their actual performance.  The teachers only get paid more for sticking around another year.  That is a flawed system.  If there is no consequence for lack of improvement, then I would love to hear the actual ideas of the teachers for a way to force the educators to do better.   

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 2:28:20 PM 
Bobcatbob wrote:
You want performance metrics that are measurable?  How about continuing education achievements, professionalism, work attendance, (School) community activism, innovation, adaptation, "works well with others" (this one is HUGE).  That's a pretty good list in my world and we haven't gotten to the daily work results part yet. 


Hard to complain about these ideas.

I don't mind unions at all.  But, one thing I never understood is why they want to protect the low performers.  Unions should demand excellence from their fellow members and then brag about it and use that to improve their total compensation package.



Last Edited: 9/12/2012 2:30:11 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 4:41:51 PM 
bobcat695 wrote:
Tim Burke wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Principals are in the building every day and over the course of 170+ school days it becomes clear who are the most effective teachers. I do not believe merit pay is a fix for anything wrong in education. Schools ditricts are so diverse; urban/rural, big/small, wealthy/poor, I have no clue how anyone would think they could administer education nationally.


This implies principals are competent.

Merit pay does not work, and it takes a very ignorant person to not be able to figure out immediately why it does not work. 


Why does merit pay work in virtually every other profession except teaching?  I know you have moved from a student to an educator, but saying I am ignorant because I believe good teachers should be paid more, and bad teachers should be shown the door is not a good argument.  My wife teaches and my kids go to school.  The kids are the only ones in the school each day measured on their actual performance.  The teachers only get paid more for sticking around another year.  That is a flawed system.  If there is no consequence for lack of improvement, then I would love to hear the actual ideas of the teachers for a way to force the educators to do better.   


Can't argue with any of this but let's get specific.  How would be measure the success of a PE teacher, a band director or a drama teacher?  Coaches are easy, you either win or lose.  How do measure the success of those teachers in areas where there is no testing?  Again, let's get to the specifics.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 8:39:23 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:


Can't argue with any of this but let's get specific.  How would be measure the success of a PE teacher, a band director or a drama teacher?  Coaches are easy, you either win or lose.  How do measure the success of those teachers in areas where there is no testing?  Again, let's get to the specifics.

  
   What about the coach who won the 2008 state title in basketball then had a sub-.500 record the next season? Was he a great basketball coach one year and below average the next? Or did the talent level change from one year to the next? And if so, could this also apply to a teacher's students?
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/12/2012 10:12:38 PM 
Alan, these measures aren't always completely quantitative.  A good principal gets feedback from kids, parents and sees how students in various classes learn, grow and mature.  He or she has antennas deployed and gets information on the teachers in the school from a wide variety of sources. Sometimes, however, other data is available of a slightly more quantitative nature.  For instance, I'm reminded of a Latin teacher at the former Chauncey-Dover Exempted Village High School.  Every year she had a few students who placed on the state exams in that dead language.  Anyone who knows the socioeconomic backgrounds of the students at this school would know that that teacher was doing an excellent job.  She obviously knew how to make this subject of interest to students from backgrounds where very few had a family member that ever darkened the doors of a college classroom.  In the inner city you can find similar teachers whose students learn and mature at rates greater than do the students of their colleagues.  I don't think discovering who the good teachers are is really rocket science.

Last Edited: 9/12/2012 10:20:38 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/13/2012 5:13:39 PM 
As a school principal in Illinois, I am watching this closely.  There are mixed feelings, none of which relate to the money.  That's for those in that market to decide.  I don't begrudge anybody for what they make. 

The argument that there is no way to measure a whether a teacher is good or not is just not true.  The old adage that, "I can't define good teaching, but I know it when I see it" is also something I hold little stock in.  Instead, Charlotte Danielson's method for evaluating teachers truly does help define what good (and great) teaching is.  As far as I am concerned (and studies, as well), it's pretty on-point.  It, like everything else, has its flaws.  Yet they are far less glaring than the old system.

Now, this is the method the state of Illinois has adopted by law to evaluate teachers.  This is now used to determine whether those teachers remain employed by a district or not, especially when the district is required to reduce the workforce of teachers. 

However, nothing in that evaluation takes student performance on testing into account to judge the efficacy of teachers.  That's where the matter gets dicey.  Chicago Public Schools are the only district in the state that is required to implement student performance into job security this year.  That is the reason for the panic.  They being the guinea pigs, nobody really knows what that looks like or how it will be administered. 
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/13/2012 9:42:42 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
As a school principal in Illinois, I am watching this closely.  There are mixed feelings, none of which relate to the money.  That's for those in that market to decide.  I don't begrudge anybody for what they make. 

The argument that there is no way to measure a whether a teacher is good or not is just not true.  The old adage that, "I can't define good teaching, but I know it when I see it" is also something I hold little stock in.  Instead, Charlotte Danielson's method for evaluating teachers truly does help define what good (and great) teaching is.  As far as I am concerned (and studies, as well), it's pretty on-point.  It, like everything else, has its flaws.  Yet they are far less glaring than the old system.

Now, this is the method the state of Illinois has adopted by law to evaluate teachers.  This is now used to determine whether those teachers remain employed by a district or not, especially when the district is required to reduce the workforce of teachers. 

However, nothing in that evaluation takes student performance on testing into account to judge the efficacy of teachers.  That's where the matter gets dicey.  Chicago Public Schools are the only district in the state that is required to implement student performance into job security this year.  That is the reason for the panic.  They being the guinea pigs, nobody really knows what that looks like or how it will be administered. 


Here you go for those wondering about the Charlotte Danielson method.  Here's the rub.  Many of the administrators that I've dealt with have been poorly prepared if prepared at all to utilize such a method.  In service in so many districts is non existent.  An hour or two in an auditorium listening to a motivational speaker the day before school starts and they building and department meetings is hardly inservice.  Unfortunately, that is all too common. 
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Teachers, What Say You About the Chicago Wa lkout?
   Posted: 9/14/2012 3:59:21 PM 
Alan,

I could not agree with you more.  It's a great system....if you know how to properly use it.  Otherwise, it's just as easily manipulated as anything in the past.  I should amend my earlier post to say: When used correctly, it hits the nail on the head.
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