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Topic:  The Pandemic and Academics

Topic:  The Pandemic and Academics
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
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  Message Not Read  The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 6:48:50 AM 
There's an article by Cheyanne Mumphrey of the AP (Its on Muck Rack) that
says the ACT Scores for this year's high school graduates are the lowest in
30 years.

The article also says that "an increasing number of high school students failed to meet any of the subject-area benchmarks set by the ACT - showing a decline in preparedness for college level work."
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 8:41:23 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article by Cheyanne Mumphrey of the AP (Its on Muck Rack) that
says the ACT Scores for this year's high school graduates are the lowest in
30 years.

The article also says that "an increasing number of high school students failed to meet any of the subject-area benchmarks set by the ACT - showing a decline in preparedness for college level work."


This should shock absolutely no one.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 9:17:58 AM 
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.

Last Edited: 10/13/2022 9:18:18 AM by rpbobcat
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 9:58:29 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 11:04:40 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.


No argument here.

But what's really troubling is how many of these kids took, and did well in
High School Calculus.

Obviously ,whoever was teaching it, wasn't doing their job in assessing if/what the kids were supposedly learning.
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spongeBOB CATpants
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 11:48:00 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.


What makes it any different than teaching in person (other than the obvious)? In my experience, math courses are essentially a professor standing at the front of the class and doing math problems on the chalk board and going over the previous homework assignment for 60-90 minutes a few days a week.

It was basically either you were absorbing the info or not and if you weren't, tutoring/office hours were the main way to get additional help.

I'm curious to learn what the tutoring protocols were while the covid protocols were in place.

IMO, math would've been one of the easier subjects to teach/learn virtually. I think its more that college level math classes are just tougher than a lot of other subjects.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 11:57:20 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.


No argument here.

But what's really troubling is how many of these kids took, and did well in
High School Calculus.

Obviously ,whoever was teaching it, wasn't doing their job in assessing if/what the kids were supposedly learning.


some places there was no assessments going on or very little. Especially for about a year in some places. There are other fall outs from this lost time as well for students.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 11:58:41 AM 
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.


What makes it any different than teaching in person (other than the obvious)? In my experience, math courses are essentially a professor standing at the front of the class and doing math problems on the chalk board and going over the previous homework assignment for 60-90 minutes a few days a week.

It was basically either you were absorbing the info or not and if you weren't, tutoring/office hours were the main way to get additional help.

I'm curious to learn what the tutoring protocols were while the covid protocols were in place.

IMO, math would've been one of the easier subjects to teach/learn virtually. I think its more that college level math classes are just tougher than a lot of other subjects.


Many places there were not any in person tutoring going on.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 12:06:13 PM 
My father was a math professor, He always had extensive hours for students to come in for extra tutoring. He also engaged students heavily in class, in a way that would be very difficult to do virtually. He prided himself in being able to take students with inadequate prior math learning and give them the extra background that their high school math education had not provided. You might say, he was good at "coaching them up." Over the years I've heard numerous former students say they would not have made it through calculus without this extra attention. I think that that kind of attention to student needs is much more difficult, if not impossible, to do virtually.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,072

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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 6:06:46 PM 
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.


What makes it any different than teaching in person (other than the obvious)? In my experience, math courses are essentially a professor standing at the front of the class and doing math problems on the chalk board and going over the previous homework assignment for 60-90 minutes a few days a week.



Yikes! That's some pretty poor teaching - right up there with PowerPoint after PowerPoint or back in the day, film strips and 33 1/3 records.

There isn't a class/subject matter out there that can't be made interactive and Zoom, Teams, whatever makes that virtually impossible.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/13/2022 6:09:17 PM 
Here's an article on the topic. One other thing to consider - in some districts ALL seniors are now taking the test and it's paid for by the district as opposed to just those considering going to college. With that in mind, it makes sense that scores would go down but none the less, "virtual teaching" certainly had an impact too.

https://apnews.com/article/health-education-covid-phoenix...
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/14/2022 7:03:52 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
One other thing to consider - in some districts ALL seniors are now taking the test and it's paid for by the district as opposed to just those considering going to college.


I chair FDU's "Industrial Advisory Committee For Civil Engineering and Civil and Construction Engineering Technology.

These committees are required by ABET (Accreditation Board For Engineering and Technology) to maintain accreditation of your engineering programs.

The committees are comprised of faculty and people who work in the field.
(We try to get as many graduates of FDU's engineering programs to participate as we can)

We're tasked with working with the University to improve Engineering programs.

One problem has always been how to objectively evaluate the students.

One thing we came up with was having every senior take (they don't have to pass) to the first part (Fundamentals of Engineering) of the Professional Engineer Licensing Exam.

This shows how our engineering graduates are doing, including compared to other Universities.

It also shows areas of weakness in our programs.



Last Edited: 10/14/2022 11:38:38 AM by rpbobcat
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spongeBOB CATpants
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Member Since: 8/16/2016
Post Count: 989

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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/14/2022 9:33:33 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
As I've posted, I work with FDU in N.J.

Virtually every incoming Freshman that wants to major in engineering has had to
take remedial math.

Normally, if an incoming freshman is weak in math, they start off with pre-Calculus ,before they go into Calculus.

Most of these kids can't even handle that.


Again, no surprise, it's very hard to teach calculus through a zoom meeting.


What makes it any different than teaching in person (other than the obvious)? In my experience, math courses are essentially a professor standing at the front of the class and doing math problems on the chalk board and going over the previous homework assignment for 60-90 minutes a few days a week.



Yikes! That's some pretty poor teaching - right up there with PowerPoint after PowerPoint or back in the day, film strips and 33 1/3 records.

There isn't a class/subject matter out there that can't be made interactive and Zoom, Teams, whatever makes that virtually impossible.



LOL well, that's what you get when you walk into Morton Hall...

I had to retake Calc twice when I was a freshman, eventually I got a B. I realized that these courses weren't going to be like high school so I took advantage of every opportunity for outside help. Class itself was pretty pointless. Tutoring and really hammering homework was the only way I improved.
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Ohio69
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 3,023

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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/14/2022 5:10:46 PM 
Students and their parents are more concerned with the process of earning than the process of learning.

And... unfortunately I can't site where I just read that line in the last few weeks.....

I wish someone would research college credit plus in Ohio and find out if those kids are retaining anything and/or graduating "early" or still taking 4+ years. My pessimism says not retaining and not graduating early...


Last Edited: 10/14/2022 5:12:09 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/14/2022 9:07:57 PM 
How many 12 to 18 year old students meet this definition of the program?

Ohio House Bill 487 provides academically qualified students in grades 7 through 12 access to college-level coursework that is not remedial or religious in nature prior to graduation from high school. This program promotes rigorous academic pursuits and provides a wide variety of options to college-ready students. Successful completion of college courses under this program not only earns secondary students transferable college-level credit but also credit that satisfies high school graduation criteria.

Very few yet thousands of students are enrolled in this program. Tough to argue the cost savings but the academic rigor just isn't there.
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Jeff McKinney
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Member Since: 11/12/2004
Post Count: 6,102

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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/16/2022 1:22:00 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
My father was a math professor, He always had extensive hours for students to come in for extra tutoring. He also engaged students heavily in class, in a way that would be very difficult to do virtually. He prided himself in being able to take students with inadequate prior math learning and give them the extra background that their high school math education had not provided. You might say, he was good at "coaching them up." Over the years I've heard numerous former students say they would not have made it through calculus without this extra attention. I think that that kind of attention to student needs is much more difficult, if not impossible, to do virtually.


I salute your father. I took three Calculus courses at Ohio, and all three of the profs were really good about doing what your father did.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/16/2022 8:05:29 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
How many 12 to 18 year old students meet this definition of the program?

Ohio House Bill 487 provides academically qualified students in grades 7 through 12 access to college-level coursework that is not remedial or religious in nature prior to graduation from high school. This program promotes rigorous academic pursuits and provides a wide variety of options to college-ready students. Successful completion of college courses under this program not only earns secondary students transferable college-level credit but also credit that satisfies high school graduation criteria.

Very few yet thousands of students are enrolled in this program. Tough to argue the cost savings but the academic rigor just isn't there.


In your community, about 65% by the time they are 18
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/16/2022 10:14:49 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
How many 12 to 18 year old students meet this definition of the program?

Ohio House Bill 487 provides academically qualified students in grades 7 through 12 access to college-level coursework that is not remedial or religious in nature prior to graduation from high school. This program promotes rigorous academic pursuits and provides a wide variety of options to college-ready students. Successful completion of college courses under this program not only earns secondary students transferable college-level credit but also credit that satisfies high school graduation criteria.

Very few yet thousands of students are enrolled in this program. Tough to argue the cost savings but the academic rigor just isn't there.


In your community, about 65% by the time they are 18


When Ohio introduced PSEOP in 1989, it was for 11th and 12th grade students only. In 1997, the program was expanded to 9th and 10th grade. It was originally set up to offer one of two things - courses that the local high schools couldn't or didn't offer and courses that me the unique needs and abilities of higher achieving students.

Then came CC+ and the flood gates opened to 7 - 12th grade students and was promoted as a way to save on college costs. You can imagine how many families are taking advantage of this program. In some smaller districts in close proximity to a university that participates in the program, it has greatly reduced the number of students in the building full time and as more than one high school principal has shared with me, taken much of the student leadership out of the building for significant periods of time.

As for the 65% figure, that might be accurate if you only count seniors second semester of their senior year. When school starts in August, 8.25% of your senior class is 18 at most and that goes up and additional 8.25% per month.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 10/16/2022 12:56:37 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
How many 12 to 18 year old students meet this definition of the program?

Ohio House Bill 487 provides academically qualified students in grades 7 through 12 access to college-level coursework that is not remedial or religious in nature prior to graduation from high school. This program promotes rigorous academic pursuits and provides a wide variety of options to college-ready students. Successful completion of college courses under this program not only earns secondary students transferable college-level credit but also credit that satisfies high school graduation criteria.

Very few yet thousands of students are enrolled in this program. Tough to argue the cost savings but the academic rigor just isn't there.


In your community, about 65% by the time they are 18


When Ohio introduced PSEOP in 1989, it was for 11th and 12th grade students only. In 1997, the program was expanded to 9th and 10th grade. It was originally set up to offer one of two things - courses that the local high schools couldn't or didn't offer and courses that me the unique needs and abilities of higher achieving students.

Then came CC+ and the flood gates opened to 7 - 12th grade students and was promoted as a way to save on college costs. You can imagine how many families are taking advantage of this program. In some smaller districts in close proximity to a university that participates in the program, it has greatly reduced the number of students in the building full time and as more than one high school principal has shared with me, taken much of the student leadership out of the building for significant periods of time.

As for the 65% figure, that might be accurate if you only count seniors second semester of their senior year. When school starts in August, 8.25% of your senior class is 18 at most and that goes up and additional 8.25% per month.



And now you have a Superintendent who never put his own daughter in the school that’s paying him, after 6th grade.
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nakaru87m
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 11/4/2022 1:27:25 AM 
People have made a lot of good points. I think there's a lot going on and adding together.

The two things I've especially seen locally (at a CC) and I'll add to the pile:

For two years, students were forced to go online. That sucked the life out of their educational experience and left them disengaged. They hate online, yet when given the opportunity to come back onto campus, that's not as convenient, so they hate that too. Further feeding the problem is a vicious cycle - since fewer students want f2f classes, we have been scheduling fewer classes on campus . . .and then because the schedule is sparse, students have a hard time putting together a suitable schedule of f2f courses, so they default back to online.

Changes in the job market - with so many entry level jobs open, students are either not enrolling or they do enroll, but are on the fence about it and lose momentum more quickly.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 11/4/2022 6:47:46 AM 
nakaru87m wrote:

Further feeding the problem is a vicious cycle - since fewer students want f2f classes, we have been scheduling fewer classes on campus . . .and then because the schedule is sparse, students have a hard time putting together a suitable schedule of f2f courses, so they default back to online.


For those of us who aren't academics, what is "f2f" ?
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Day Tripper
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 11/4/2022 7:07:35 AM 
I believe it is face to face.
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 11/4/2022 11:32:00 AM 
Day Tripper wrote:
I believe it is face to face.


Makes sense.

Thanks.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 11/4/2022 12:18:26 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
nakaru87m wrote:

Further feeding the problem is a vicious cycle - since fewer students want f2f classes, we have been scheduling fewer classes on campus . . .and then because the schedule is sparse, students have a hard time putting together a suitable schedule of f2f courses, so they default back to online.


For those of us who aren't academics, what is "f2f" ?



How is a guy who "works with FDU in New Jersey" not an academic?
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

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  Message Not Read  RE: The Pandemic and Academics
   Posted: 11/4/2022 2:19:47 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:


How is a guy who "works with FDU in New Jersey" not an academic?



I chair FDU's Industrial Advisory Committee for Civil Engineering and
Civil and Construction Engineering Technology.

My company does civil engineering design work and Land Surveying for the school.

I am a Guest Lecturer for Land Surveying.
I lecture about the history of Land Surveying and Surveying "in the real world".

I also Guest Lecture at a Civil Engineering class on, for lack of a better phrase "engineers getting their hands dirty on construction sites.

Never thought that doing some "guest lectures" qualified me as an "academic".


Last Edited: 11/4/2022 2:20:39 PM by rpbobcat
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