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Topic: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Topic: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

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giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
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Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/20/2023 7:52:02 AM

https://pge.post-gazette.com/.pf/showstory/202305200052/3

Interesting commentary from a Pittsburgh writer.

Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/20/2023 10:00:20 AM

Was lucky enough to see Jim Brown play live in old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. My dad was a Kroger manager in the Akron area and year after year after year won the bakery goods sales contest that Kroger ran for its managers. HIs prize each year - season tickets to the Browns.

We'd race out of Sunday school in Ellet, head home to Goodyear Heights to change clothes and then speed up old Route 8 and then into Cleveland for the game. Interestingly enough, we had seats in Section 32.

Jim Brown, Arnold Palmer and Willie Mays - those were my heroes back in the day. Now sadly, two are gone.

bobcatsquared
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/20/2023 10:04:04 AM

You saw Jim Brown in person. What about Palmer? Say Hey Kid?

SBH
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/20/2023 10:58:44 AM

He threw a woman out a second story window. 11 cases of domestic assault.

Pataskala
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/20/2023 3:15:57 PM

Yes, he had off-field issues. No one's commending him for it. It's good to see the league being taken to task for covering up players' personal brutality all thos years

Still, it's hard to imagine a more dynamic player than Jim Brown. Sixty years after he retired he's still the 11th all-time leading rusher. He played in an era where the NFL played only 10 or 12 games a season, not the 14, 16 and 17 it has since the 1970s. Plus there were no playoffs and no Super Bowl, just the NFL championship game. He is still the all-time leader in yds per game with 104.3, 4.5 ypg ahead of Barry Sanders, who's #2. He's the only one to average more than 100 rushing ypg.

BTW, I saw Mays play in Cincy late in his career when he was with the Mets. Aaron, too, as he chased The Babe. Saw him hit #s 643 and 644 one day at Riverfront.

Last Edited: 5/22/2023 1:00:33 PM by Pataskala

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bobcatsquared
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/20/2023 8:53:46 PM

While Brown retired while on top of this playing career, Mays hung on too long, not unlike many professional athletes. I too saw him in Riverfront as a New York Met in his final year.

giacomo
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 8:51:02 AM

I was very little when Brown retired, but my dad would always talk about him. I find it very interesting that he would get up very slowly on every play to keep his opponents guessing, only to run over them the next play. Certainly not a role model for his personal life.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 10:42:57 AM

He was beyond "issues". I'm not celebrating this guy

SBH
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 12:19:36 PM

Couldn't agree more.

Victory
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 1:23:56 PM

Pataskala wrote:

Still, it's hard to imagine a more dynamic player than Jim Brown. Sixty years after he retired he's still the 11th all-time leading rusher. He played in an era where the NFL played only 10 or 12 games a season, not the 14, 16 and 17 it has since the 1970s. Plus there were no playoffs and no Super Bowl, just the NFL championship game. He is still the all-time leader in yds per game with 104.3, 4.5 ypg ahead of Barry Sanders, who's #2. He's the only one to average more than 100 rushing ypg.

bobcatsquared wrote:

While Brown retired while on top of this playing career, Mays hung on too long, not unlike many professional athletes. I too saw him in Riverfront as a New York Met in his final year.

These two things are obviously related. When you retire early your stat totals suffer but your rate totals benefit. This is one of the arguments that can really send you down a rabbit hole when you start arguing about the GOAT. For my line of thinking if you keep playing but are still good enough that you are not taking playing time or a roster spot from someone better then you are still helping your team and you deserve some measure of credit above and beyond what you would have if you had retired while you were still elite.

A lot of Emmitt Smith's totals were due to volume but he was able to keep himself a pretty good back despite the pounding until, well, at least very near the end. Smith and Brown played on better teams than Sanders. I often think that we overweigh this when arguing individual accomplishments. I think sometimes to the contrary. A lot of backs would have been at least modestly successful behind Smith's line. Sanders put up some of the best stats in the NFL most years of his career on teams where almost everyone would have struggled.

To the point of when longevity matters and when you go on too long to hurt your team, Pete Rose to me is the best example. He was a hometown guy and because of his style of play when at his best he was just beloved by a team's fanbase and because of where he was in hits with respect to Cobb he was a ticket draw no matter what. On top of that, he was his own manager. He was able to carry on for decent while after it was pretty clear he was, not just no longer an all-start, but no longer a major league caliber player.

Last Edited: 5/21/2023 6:10:10 PM by Victory

OhioCatFan
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 3:22:13 PM

Some on here seem incapable of dealing with nuances. They seem to view people as either all good or all bad. Jim Brown had many sterling attributes both on the field and off, including in the latter his civil rights work and his acting career.

Yes, he appeared to have an anger management problem. He seemed to regret his actions after the fact and about eight years ago made the following statement, according to the ever semi-accurate Wikipedia:

"There is no excuse for violence. There is never a justification for anyone to impose themselves on someone else. And it will always be incorrect when it comes to a man and a woman, regardless of what might have happened. You need to be man enough to take the blow. That is always the best way. Do not put your hands on a woman."

As far as I know, none of his assaults, which included at least one against another man, ever resulted in permanent injury. So, it's not exactly like he was an axe murdered, or something. I'm not excusing his behavior in these assaults in any way. I'm just trying to put them in some kind of context -- nuanced, if you will.

Seems to me that the quote above, form 2015, shows that he was repentant for those past misdeeds in his personal life. I just think we should be a little more forgiving and view people in the total context of their lives.

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SBH
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 5:35:47 PM

Again, he threw a woman out second story window, onto a concrete sidewalk. She was found bleeding and unconscious, covered in glass. If this didn't result in permanent injuries (and you'd have a hard time convincing me of that), his intent was to kill or maim her.

His violent actions occurred over a period of more than 30 years, from the mid-1960s to 1999.

If you know anything about his post-career relationship with the Cleveland Browns, you know he was a prima donna who was paid a large salary for doing next to nothing. The Browns couldn't afford to turn their backs on him because he would - and often did - complain of mistreatment and racism.

He was a great, great running back, but he was an animal. There's no nuance in that.

Last Edited: 5/21/2023 5:42:25 PM by SBH

Victory
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 6:30:32 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

I'm not sure to whom you are speaking. I think that everyone who has mentioned his domestic violence issues has not denied any of the positives that you mention.

I mentioned Pete Rose earlier. He's another Ohio sports hero and there ARE some that are capable of dealing with nuance that I have met in real life. He was a good enough player to easily be in the Hall of Fame based on on-field accomplishments. He is the all time leader in hits. He played whenever and wherever; place, lineup, or position, that his team needed. He gave 100% every second of it.

But these are also still true:
Most of his career value is in singles, and while that value is still immense, with modern analysis methods that wouldn't be valued as much as when he played. He was probably only broke Cobb's hits record because he was able to play after he was no longer a major league caliber player. He broke one of the games most important rules in betting on games involving his own team and repeatedly lied about it and attacked everyone who mentioned the evidence against him for years rather than simply admitting fault and asking for forgiveness.

All that can be true at the same time.

Last Edited: 5/21/2023 6:31:06 PM by Victory

Alan Swank
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/21/2023 8:06:54 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

You saw Jim Brown in person. What about Palmer? Say Hey Kid?

Palmer yes - twice - once at Tanglewood Country Club in Cleveland and once at Athens County Club with Dow Finsterwald for a fundraiser for the OU golf team. Had I had an extra $5000 at the time, I would have ponied up and gotten to play 9 with each guy. Alas, I paid $25 a ticket to see it with my mom and dad and got pictures taken with The King. Willie - just got to see him play.

OU_Country
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/22/2023 2:42:45 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

He was beyond "issues". I'm not celebrating this guy

+1.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/22/2023 4:09:37 PM

SBH wrote:

He threw a woman out a second story window. 11 cases of domestic assault.

Well, it wasn't a window but a balcony. And, the woman involved, Eva Bohn-Chin, later said she tripped and fell off the balcony as she was running away from him. Don't know which version of the story is true. Neither puts Brown in the best of lights, but they are different stories that paint significantly different word pictures.

Again, I'm not excusing his behavior. I'm also not ready to jump on the Jim Brown son-of-perdition bandwagon either.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/23/2023 11:22:18 AM

SBH wrote:

Well, Jim Brown did support President Trump and considered himself a conservative. So, SBH, his support here by several should not surprise you in the slightest!

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2792118-jim-brown-on-...

BillyTheCat
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/23/2023 11:23:05 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

SBH wrote:

He threw a woman out a second story window. 11 cases of domestic assault.

Everyone of his accusers ended up saying it was their fault. coincidence?

SBH
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/23/2023 12:23:20 PM

Yeah, she "tripped" while leaving a long smear of hair and blood in a straight line across the GOAT's living room carpet to the balcony.

Every one of his accusers changed their story later. Hmmm.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/23/2023 12:41:49 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

SBH wrote:

Your URL posting is the first I knew about his political persuasion. I really didn't pay any attention to that aspect of his life. If he had supported Hiliary Clinton and Joe Biden, it would not have changed what I've said one bit. Nice try, though.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/23/2023 12:43:17 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

SBH wrote:

It is relative that you share the same views and support.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 5/24/2023 12:20:01 AM

OU_Country wrote:

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

He was beyond "issues". I'm not celebrating this guy

+1.

giacomo
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RE: Jim Brown: the true GOAT

Posted: 6/17/2023 11:34:14 AM

https://pge.post-gazette.com/.pf/showstory/202306120007/3

This article says the Steelers could have had both Jim Brown and Johnny Unitas!

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