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Topic: Graduate transfer controversy
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giacomo
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Posted: 5/27/2017 10:15 PM
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Pitt/2017/05/27/cam-jo...

Long article, but worth it. David Ridpath is quoted. Cameron Johnson from Pitt was a redshirt sophomore who graduated in three years and has two years of eligibility. Very rare. He wants to go to North Carolina but Pitt is blocking him.
greencat
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Posted: 5/29/2017 3:10 PM
Could be because they are both in the ACC and play each other.

I don't blame the guy from wanting to get away from Kevin Stallings and the now sinking ship he will ride off into retirement, but there are tons of non-ACC schools that would welcome him. If he wants to play for a coach who is a civil gentleman, Prohm at Iowa State would be a good choice. The Big 12 is a high profile hoops league.
giacomo
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Posted: 5/30/2017 3:43 PM
If he graduates he should be able to play anywhere. The coach could resign and coach anywhere. The system is stacked against player freedom and I hope it changes in the near future.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:44 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
If he graduates he should be able to play anywhere. The coach could resign and coach anywhere. The system is stacked against player freedom and I hope it changes in the near future.
You keep putting coaches and players on the same level. They are not. The coach by this time in his life is a professional. The student is a student. You don't let the inmates run the asylum. I believe in one sense, this is a microcosm of what's wrong with higher education today. I don't expect too many on this board to agree with this, but I believe that when you made student evaluations of professors to be a very important factor in a professor's professional evaluation for tenure and promotion (started in the 1970s, and I was a part of it), you began to see the phenomenon of grade inflation (you rub my back, I'll rub your back) and a general decline in academic rigor in higher education. This thought of the general equivalence of student-athletes and coaches is just a small symptom of a larger societal ill, IMHO>
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OU_Country
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Posted: 5/31/2017 9:37 AM
I'm not 100% sure if I agree with you, but I think you make a good point OCF.
rpbobcat
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:04 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I don't expect too many on this board to agree with this, but I believe that when you made student evaluations of professors to be a very important factor in a professor's professional evaluation for tenure and promotion (started in the 1970s, and I was a part of it), you began to see the phenomenon of grade inflation (you rub my back, I'll rub your back) and a general decline in academic rigor in higher education. This thought of the general equivalence of student-athletes and coaches is just a small symptom of a larger societal ill, IMHO>
I don't know the root cause,but I can tell you that grade inflation has become a huge problem.Its so big of a problem,that the group that accredits engineering programs (ABET) no longer allows student grades to be used in evaluating an engineering program for accreditation.
giacomo
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:19 AM
Does anyone object if a tuba player in the marching band at Pitt transfers to North Carolina and plays in their band?
OU_Country
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:33 AM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Does anyone object if a tuba player in the marching band at Pitt transfers to North Carolina and plays in their band?
No - but do their respective bands compete directly with each other on the court or the field?
OhioStunter
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Posted: 5/31/2017 11:27 AM
One individual is under contract, paid handsomely and can leave for another school whenever he wants. The other individual is not under contract, not paid, and is restricted from leaving for another school.

That sounds right.
Pataskala
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Posted: 5/31/2017 11:47 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
One individual is under contract, paid handsomely and can leave for another school whenever he wants. The other individual is not under contract, not paid, and is restricted from leaving for another school.

That sounds right.
A scholarship is a type of contract (which is one reason unions argue that students are actually employees), but graduation should trigger an opt-out clause that can make the student a free agent. Free tuition, etc. is a form of payment. Whether it's just compensation, given the money machines athletics have become at some schools, is a matter of conjecture.

I can see having a non-compete clause in the schollie (if the coaches' contracts do), but it should specify the schools the student can't go to up front, not just make it at the coach's whim. None of this "including, but not limited to" BS.
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OUVan
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Posted: 5/31/2017 12:29 PM
I think the situation may eventually fix itself. Coaches that use redshirts on athletes may stop doing so and may be less likely to take a younger transfer if they keep coming back to bite them in the arse.
cbus cat fan
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Posted: 5/31/2017 1:10 PM
These days, getting a scholarship is a big--big financial deal. Some years ago, when I was coaching we had a young man who was recruited by a very prestigious private (non-religiously affiliated) college. He got a full scholarship and the promise that he would be accepted into their law school following graduation, if he didn't do anything stupid. He is doing quite well now, and I can assure you from an academic standpoint he would have never been accepted by that school if it were not for sports.

A couple of weeks ago, a work related matter had me meeting with members of a local law firm. The group was eager to wrap up our meeting and celebrate one of the associates who had just paid off his student loans. One of the gentlemen joked that it would be a a while before he paid off his loans. Trying to be supportive, I said that I hoped it would be soon.

He retorted, "$250,000 won't be soon." I laughed thinking he was taking a stab at humor. When he didn't I realized my mistake and profusely apologized. At that point, he did laugh and said; "Don't worry about it, I will pay it off in less than 10 years. Just think about my fellow law school students who didn't get a law firm job and are trying to pay it back doing menial type work." Scholarships are a ticket to something better and their worth can't be underestimated in today's economy.
Last Edited: 5/31/2017 1:12:06 PM by cbus cat fan
giacomo
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Posted: 5/31/2017 2:59 PM
Pataskala, very good points, as are the others. I've made this point before in another thread. When coaches were paid in line with professors then a scholarship was adequate compensation and many of the rules, including the transfer rule, were good and proper. I see that changing, no matter how valuable you think an athletic scholarship is compared to kids with loans. I lived in Ann Arbor right after graduation in 1981. Bo Schemblecler made 100k and the president made 105k. In those days you couldn't pay the coaches more than the prez. Now Bo likely got some other compensation, like car leases, etc. Look at Jim Harbaugh's whopping 8M!! At 3.5% annual inflation, Bo would be at 345K currently.
Last Edited: 5/31/2017 3:01:16 PM by giacomo
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 5/31/2017 11:25 PM
cbus cat fan wrote:expand_more
These days, getting a scholarship is a big--big financial deal. Some years ago, when I was coaching we had a young man who was recruited by a very prestigious private (non-religiously affiliated) college. He got a full scholarship and the promise that he would be accepted into their law school following graduation, if he didn't do anything stupid. He is doing quite well now, and I can assure you from an academic standpoint he would have never been accepted by that school if it were not for sports.

A couple of weeks ago, a work related matter had me meeting with members of a local law firm. The group was eager to wrap up our meeting and celebrate one of the associates who had just paid off his student loans. One of the gentlemen joked that it would be a a while before he paid off his loans. Trying to be supportive, I said that I hoped it would be soon.

He retorted, "$250,000 won't be soon." I laughed thinking he was taking a stab at humor. When he didn't I realized my mistake and profusely apologized. At that point, he did laugh and said; "Don't worry about it, I will pay it off in less than 10 years. Just think about my fellow law school students who didn't get a law firm job and are trying to pay it back doing menial type work." Scholarships are a ticket to something better and their worth can't be underestimated in today's economy.
Problem is the athletes that this board garners discussion about do not go to law schools. But I agree, a fully paid scholarship is real money.
rpbobcat
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Posted: 6/1/2017 7:28 AM
First off,when talking about the value of a scholarship,you need to separate football,basketball and to some extent baseball and woman's basketball from other sports.

The demands placed on athletes in these sports,especially at "top" programs, combined with the dream of playing pro,at some level,result in a number of athletes "wasting" a scholarship by pursuing an "easy" degree that lets them stay eligible but has little,if any, value in the real world.

Participants in other sports,where there is no pro career,have the ability to use that scholarship more for academics.

There is no question a scholarship is "real money" that can be a great benefit to a true "student athlete".
Last Edited: 6/1/2017 7:28:41 AM by rpbobcat
Ohio69
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Posted: 6/1/2017 8:43 AM
I'm amazed nobody has lawyered up and gotten a judge to prevent a university from enforcing these types of rules.

If I was a judge, I might do it just for fun -- even if I thought I would get overturned.
Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....
Last Edited: 6/1/2017 8:43:52 AM by Ohio69
OUVan
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Posted: 6/1/2017 9:22 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Problem is the athletes that this board garners discussion about do not go to law schools. But I agree, a fully paid scholarship is real money.
You don't have to go to law school to rack up $250K in debt. My son is heading to school this fall and without scholarships it would cost him $55K a year and that is one of the cheapest schools he applied to. His other choices RPI, just under $70K, Stevens, WPI,and Fordham, all around $60K.
giacomo
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Posted: 6/1/2017 9:45 AM
The reason they don't go to court is that the NCAA has the money to tie the case up forever. The kids eligibility runs out. It was the same thing when Maurice Clarret was going to challenge the NFL. They will fight it until you're dead.
Ohio69
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Posted: 6/1/2017 1:33 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
The reason they don't go to court is that the NCAA has the money to tie the case up forever. The kids eligibility runs out. It was the same thing when Maurice Clarret was going to challenge the NFL. They will fight it until you're dead.
I guess I was more dreaming about getting a quick/immediate injuction against this type of thing, then let the NCAA try to get that overturned while you play basketball.
Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 6/1/2017 2:30 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Does anyone object if a tuba player in the marching band at Pitt transfers to North Carolina and plays in their band?
But do band directors aggressively seek to poach the top musicians from other schools' bands?
giacomo
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Posted: 6/1/2017 3:57 PM
Jeff, maybe not. I guess it's because nobody cares about the band, but they care about men's football and basketball. Why do they care? MONEY is a big part of it. When you pay Calipari 6M and Harbaugh 8M you freaking care.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 6/1/2017 6:40 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
If he graduates he should be able to play anywhere. The coach could resign and coach anywhere. The system is stacked against player freedom and I hope it changes in the near future.
You keep putting coaches and players on the same level. They are not. The coach by this time in his life is a professional. The student is a student. You don't let the inmates run the asylum. I believe in one sense, this is a microcosm of what's wrong with higher education today. I don't expect too many on this board to agree with this, but I believe that when you made student evaluations of professors to be a very important factor in a professor's professional evaluation for tenure and promotion (started in the 1970s, and I was a part of it), you began to see the phenomenon of grade inflation (you rub my back, I'll rub your back) and a general decline in academic rigor in higher education. This thought of the general equivalence of student-athletes and coaches is just a small symptom of a larger societal ill, IMHO>
The student IS a student.

So what does where he plays basketball have to do with anything.

These are either employees, or they're amateurs who are here for education.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 6/1/2017 8:37 PM
Great thread. I salute ye all! Throwback to the good ol days of BA.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 6/1/2017 9:05 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Great thread. I salute ye all! Throwback to the good ol days of BA.
Yeah - No "Only a MACC will get all Bobcats past St Peter at the gate" drift...or name calling, bashing etc...(tick, tick....)
RS Bobcat
OhioStunter
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Posted: 6/2/2017 10:54 AM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
These are either employees, or they're amateurs who are here for education.
Can they not be both?
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