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Topic: Arkley Saul Apologist Column

Topic: Arkley Saul Apologist Column

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FearLeon
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Member Since: 3/12/2005
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Arkley Saul Apologist Column

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:07:47 AM

You can agree or disagree with how Schaus handled this extension talk after year three or four. However, I can't believe this take from Arkley on not bringing Saul back.

https://www.athensmessenger.com/blogs/bobcat_blog/phillip...

This guy watched every game for five years...went to hundreds of practices. Was closer to the program than any other local media member and he feels Saul wasn't given every opportunity to get it done? Come on, man. Saul had 5 years to win....5 years...and didn't come close to winning. And not once did Arkley address how recruiting in this conference was way over Saul's head. And when you are the highest paid coach in the conference, yes, the administration and its fanbase expects you to win now.

We get it Jason...Saul is a nice guy...he's a good man. Nobody disagrees with ya there. We wish him and his family all the best. But please....stop making excuses. It's clear now who the #1 Saulaholic truly is.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 1:13:59 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

100%Cat
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:27:42 AM

FearLeon wrote:

I don't think he's necessarily wrong about a lot of what he says. I think the mistake is vastly underscoring the importance of wins and losses. He talks like wins and losses were/are secondary (or lower?) to...everything else. I don't think that's true. Money is important, this isn't a charity. Money from people buying tickets, money from butts in the seats in the Convo, and winning does that. Saul was being paid to win games, and 3/5 years he lost more than he won. I do think it's a bit odd that, as he points out, there was no extension after the back-to-back 20 win seasons. In retrospect that does seem odd. Maybe he and Schaus just didn't get along? All you can do is speculate unless you're in the situation directly.

I like Saul as much as anyone, and I do think the injury situation was nuts, but the bottom line is W's and L's. It feels like our program is slipping in the MAC, and something needed to change.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 8:29:10 AM by 100%Cat

Robert Fox
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:38:40 AM

Good article. I agree with much of it except this part "It�s winning games, selling tickets and making money for everyone but the players."

Oy vey.

FearLeon
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:41:33 AM

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

I think the mistake is vastly underscoring the importance of wins and losses. He talks like wins and losses were/are secondary (or lower?) to...everything else. I don't think that's true. .

And that's my point with his take. You are the head basketball coach at Ohio. And last time I checked, a big part of this job is that you have to actually win basketball games. Arkley totally minimizes that fact.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 8:53:08 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Bobcat1998
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:46:44 AM

This column is embarrassing to me as a former sportswriter. I agree that Saul is a good guy. I agree that he had key injuries that would have changed the course of his success at OU. But let's look at other facts. He may have brought Jaaron in but he lost him to. Jaaron would have rather sat the pine at Michigan than star at OU with Saul. That has to be taken into account. Player after player has transferred and not to Division I but down a peg. Culver, Butler, Gareri. That is a fact. A Northeast Ohio coach friend of mine told me when we signed McMurray that he was stunned. He thought McMurray would be at Walsh, a D-2 school.

In year 2, TK regressed. Fact. Gavin Block regressed. Fact. Doug never developed a true offensive game. Fact. Kenny Kaminski never developed more than a sweet jumper. Fact. This year, Torey James and Nathan Springs were not up to snuff. Fact. We got two JUCOs who averaged (without stats in front of me) a combined 12 points per game. Fact.

People want to credit Saul for Laster's development but look back, Laster sat the pine more than he started for two years until injuries FORCED Saul to play him. Only then did Laster show that he was a very good MAC athlete.

Finally, you have to take into account the crowds and the overall lack of interest in the program at the university level. It has to be said and Arkley must not see the correlation to the decline of the O Zone and lack of attendance and Saul's arrival.

It's not all about wins and losses. Saul developed great relationships and had solid men he worked with and molded off the court. He is a family man who I respect personally. But EVERY job is about wins and losses. If you're a teacher and you have horrible test scores for 5 straight years, you are probably going to lose your job. If you are a production manager at a plant and production falls for 3 of your 5 years you probably will lose your job. The difference with Saul and those jobs is a teacher makes 50 grand per year. Saul made 500 grand per year so let's set our expectations of the next guy higher than "he was a good guy."

I am officially done with Arkley and hope to heck that the Post continues to shine when Pete is gone.

FearLeon
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:50:41 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

All of this^^^^^^^^. Every...single....bit....of.....it^^^^^^^^. Amazing how Jason conveniently left out so many of these facts in the article that led to Saul's demise. Bobcat1998 just wrote a better article on this topic than Arkley Saulaholic did.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 8:52:05 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

SBH
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 8:51:36 AM

He liked Saul because Saul answered his calls and acted like the Athens Messenger sports section is important in the grand scheme of things. Pretty transparent...and another reason why I don't take Arkley seriously any more.

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 9:12:07 AM

This is Arkley's opinion. It's a column. It's not being reported as fact. It's not a news story. So because people disagree with his opinion, they now think he is a bad reporter?

FearLeon
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 9:18:31 AM

UpSan Bobcat wrote:

This is Arkley's opinion. It's a column. It's not being reported as fact. It's not a news story. So because people disagree with his opinion, they now think he is a bad reporter?

Yes...I realize it's a column and his "opinion". However, maybe he didn't watch as many games, practices or even checked the rankings of Saul's recruiting classes as much as I thought. Because if he did, there is no way he would think Saul should be brought back..none. Even until the very end, he refuses to take off the green colored Saulaholic glasses.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 9:19:06 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Flomo-genized
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 9:20:09 AM

This is a remarkably bad take. Really bad. Reasonable minds can certainly disagree about whether Saul should have gotten more time, but to suggest that the decision not to bring him back is some sort of massive injustice is nuts. If winning doesn't matter, and all that the job takes is being a nice guy who graduates his players, I could do the job for way less than Saul was making.

Arkley's had his head in the sand on this issue all season. The writing was on the wall that Saul was finished ever since Schaus let him go into the final year of his contract without an extension. A pro like Schaus would never let that happen if there was any chance Saul would be renewed.

Even as recently as Monday night, after the season-ending loss, Arkley was insisting on Twitter that it was uncertain if Saul would be back. As if there was a legitimate chance he'd be renewed after a second consecutive losing season.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 9:27:44 AM by Flomo-genized

Broomball @ Midnight!
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 9:22:05 AM

Arkley is lazy and his opinion would be stronger if it was based in reality and instead of his apologetic fantasy world.

When's this last time Arkley did actual reporting on his beat?

He's in career survival mode, instead of adapting to the new media reality, he's a dinosaur going down with the print ship.

The Post is the only source providing any semblance of coverage. I trust the pipeline is in place to continue it.

Best part article... no extension after years 2 or 3. Bullet dodged!

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 9:47:20 AM

FearLeon wrote:

UpSan Bobcat wrote:

This is Arkley's opinion. It's a column. It's not being reported as fact. It's not a news story. So because people disagree with his opinion, they now think he is a bad reporter?

I understand you disagree with his opinion, and most people do. But why are some going so far as to discredit him as a reporter? Just because he has a different opinion doesn't make him bad at his job.

allen
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 9:48:03 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

This is such a factual post, I am not done with Arkley, hie is just a little emotional right now.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OhioCatFan
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 10:38:42 AM

I read the article entirely differently than anyone else who has posted so far. I saw it as a stinging indictment of Jim Schaus. If true, it sounds like Schaus gave Saul the cold shoulder treatment for the last two years. Not very professional, if you ask me. This helped flesh out a picture for me of JS that is increasingly negative. As I said earlier, I do wish they had fired JS and kept Saul. I suspect the JS will come through with a "oh wow" type hire to replace Saul, but this doesn't forgive the shabby treatment he's given Saul, if Arkley is accurate, and his portrayal of JS certainly fits my personal experience with the man -- aloof, condescending, self-centered, not open to input from others, and not willing to stray out of his comfort zone. I think at some point in the future, OHIO is going to look very stupid for having fired a coach of this caliber. One or two more years and the whole story might have looked very different. You just can't in good conscience not consider the terrible bad luck that Saul had with injuries. If Tony doesn't go down, we probably already have a MAC title under our belts. But, in JS's world, that doesn't count. Win now baby, regardless of the circumstances, or your out on your ass! This was no Brian Knorr that we just kicked out of town.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 10:46:04 AM by OhioCatFan

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Tom Valentino
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 10:44:33 AM

Soooooo...For those of you who aren�t bringing torches and pitchforks to Arkley�s front door today, here�s a link to the podcast I recorded with him on Tuesday night. I thought he gave a pretty good assessment of the situation (and a nice primer on today�s quarterfinals).

http://www.thenailpodcast.com/2019/03/episode-144-buffalo...

(And if this episode doesn�t do it for you, hey, no worries. Maybe the one I did yesterday on the Browns getting OBJ will instead!)

On Twitter: @1tomvalentino | TheNailPodcast.com

Bobcat Love
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 10:49:05 AM

This absolutely infuriates me.

When I suggested to Arkley that we pick up the phone and call Rick Pitino, Jason came at me like angry divorcee looking for a pound of flesh BECAUSE Jim Schaus would never get into bed with someone who only cared about wins and losses. He even blocked me on twitter because I would dare make such a recommendation at the expense of Saul Phillips employment at Ohio.

Now, in the same breath (blog post), he accuses Jim Schaus of only caring about wins and losses. Even quotes him as such. Which is it Jason?

I am owed an apology, IMMEDIATELY. I am sure I'll be waiting a while.

Sidenote, I like Jason a lot and still respect his work. For those saying he's lazy or too close to Saul - give it a rest and stay in your lane. His work is still top notch and Athens is lucky to have him for as long as he will have them.

Also, I am praying that the 18 month wall of silence between Saul/Schaus is an exaggeration. In what other line of employment would it be acceptable to ignore your direct report for a year and a half with no respect for their development, compensation, or future? If that is true, it's a really pathetic reflection on Schaus, Nellis, and everyone else associated with the Athletic Department.

Bluntly, this entire situation seems like a steaming hot pile of garbage right now. We aren't winning, nobody comes to games, the talent level is pathetic, recruiting is in the toilet, the AD is in the crosshairs. This is a giant mess. The only positive is that we haven't been mentioned in the Adidas trials.

If this is about wins and losses, there are two choices. Pitino and Jans. End of story.

Edit - I still say this entire situation is the result of Schaus hiring Christian. Someone should have Kadeem Green'd his ass before he did that. SMH.

Last Edited: 3/14/2019 11:04:31 AM by Bobcat Love

colobobcat66
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 10:51:49 AM

I think Jason lays out very well why Saul will land on his feet and land another job. I don�t know at what level, but I�m fairly confident that he will. As an outsider, the story makes a lot of sense.

Based on all I read here, I wonder how more knowledgeable basketball minds will judge his recruiting and in game decisions, in game clock management etc, but I�m excited, in a way, to see where he lands.

71 BOBCAT
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 10:55:08 AM

I used to subscribe to the on line messenger but have recently cancelled it.
WHY...Because Arkley is a homer. He has been on the Messenger staff for a real long time. It appears he has no motivation to move to a larger city with a national exposure.
I call him a homer because he doesn'e want to ask the tough questions to all the coaches. A writer has the responsibility to ask those tough questions and I believe Arkley is afraid to do just that.
Yes, today's article does paint a truthful picture of all that Saul had to deal with in regards to the injuries. However, a good coach would know how to work with what he has even if that means he needs to deviate from his desired strategy. Saul chose not to change, this was his down fall. We all saw this years team and we scratched our heads at his offensive strategy.
From my perspective I did not feel that Saul was able to instill enough mental toughness on this team.
He was given a 5 year contract, probably 1 more year then necessary, as well as a obscene salary.
I will predict that Schaus will not give a 5 year deal to the next coach, and hopefully not a $550k salary as well.
I wish Saul well and that he looks in the mirror and does not make the same mistakes in his next coaching job that he did here.

GO BOBCATS

OU_Country
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 11:01:38 AM

First, for the love of God, enough with the "Saulaholic" crap. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Second, there are some points in there that are legit:

-The way the AD was not responsive about an extension after year three, when at that time, all things were pointing upward prior to Simmons leaving.

-This point is spot on, and is reflective on Jimmy and his team more than anyone else: "Ohio, apparently, made the decision to move on from Phillips just after the start of Phillips� fourth season. The lack of communication about the future of the program since that point makes it clear in hindsight. The fact that Ohio was too cheap, or too apathetic, to make the change earlier doesn't reflect well on a department that prides itself on doing more with less."

-"You have to win. Now....Keep that in mind the next time the Bobcats push an academic accomplishment, or a community service project."
He's not wrong here either. The fact is, they need to decide what they're going to be inside that building, and right now, they don't seem to know. That starts with the leadership at the top - with the AD and the University President. When McDavis was here, we knew exactly what he wanted to be related to Athletics. More and more, it's obvious that he was the one who steered the bus more than Schaus. Not only that, but if winning is most important, giving a winning feel in the arena should be too.

Third, the rest of it, yeah, I get it, the rest of it isn't great. We don't need to hear about injuries anymore, and so on. I get it. I feel the same way. And, I feel like the time to move on was here. Hell, it probably was a year ago. Instead Jimmy and his superiors decided to just let them run out the string. What a shame. What a waste of so many people's time and money.

What I continually don't get is how so many people on this board seem to refuse to place any blame on the CEO of the athletic department in this situation. If a Fortune 500 company isn't doing well in the stock market, the CEO is given at least some of the blame. Why not here in this case?

OU_Country
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 11:03:36 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

EXACTLY: "I saw it as a stinging indictment of Jim Schaus."

colobobcat66
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 11:29:44 AM

Bobcat Love wrote:

Re:Jans, NMSU is trying to get his salary to $400-500K . He has a buyout of 50% of his remaining contract which could be $375K to $750K. I�m not seeing that kind of money in our bank.

allen
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 11:37:10 AM

OU_Country wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

EXACTLY: "I saw it as a stinging indictment of Jim Schaus."

This was total speculation.
Ohio, apparently, made the decision to move on from Phillips just after the start of Phillips� fourth season. The lack of communication about the future of the program since that point makes it clear in hindsight. The fact that Ohio was too cheap, or too apathetic, to make the change earlier doesn't reflect well on a department that prides itself on doing more with less.
The AD was being diligent, Saul dug his own hole with his recruiting and the AD allowed him to coach his self into an extension, but Saul could not do it. The Saulcoholics may be hurting, but so are the fans with expectation. By not buying Saul out, we can now pay a new coach 600k per year to right this ship. The article said that Saul is a brilliant coach but he never made adjustments. I am sure that Saul is a great guy, but this is in no way an injustice, any school with ecxpectations would have done the same thing.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Bobcat Love
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 11:37:20 AM

"Phillips didn�t need Ohio, but Bobcat basketball needed him five years ago. In terms of stability, the Bobcats� situation right now is a 180-degree from where it was then. Ohio needed a culture change, and got one."

Translation. Christian ruined the Sweet 16 program because he was an asshole who didn't know what he was doing, so we had to do a 180 and bring in the complete opposite.

Per Setty's post, I'm feeling really good about my comments that Schaus whiffed on Christian AND Saul. This guy really needs to get it right this time because that Christian hire was a colossal bust. Colossal. And spare me the comments about a MAC Title. We had a team that was a whisp away from the Elite 8 bringing back EVERY single player and Christian found a way to muck it up. Just sad.

Kadeem Green his ass.

Kevin Finnegan
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 11:38:40 AM

Yes, Schaus has a lot to answer for. But the argument about him not giving Saul an extension after year three seems confusing to me. Why did he deserve an extension with two years prior to his contract running out? He had some fine seasons, but nothing outstanding. I don't have any understanding of why he should've been given more time at that point.

So, if he didn't deserve an extension after year 2 or 3, why was it a problem to have Schaus play it out? I'm not a fan of his, but he seems to have played his hand here the best he possibly could have (aside from the arrogant silent treatment he gave Saul). He didn't have the money from the school or any donors to terminate the contract early, so he had to go into the lame duck year. He also didn't have a reason to extend him, knowing that he could be in a position to let him go in the near future and firing him would be impossible without the necessary funds.

That left him one choice, really. Play out the contract. Yes, as a man, he could've done so with more class and that's disappointing. But, I think if we were coming off back-to-back losing seasons in years four and five with no discernible reason to believe next year will be different, we'd be calling for somebody's head. Now that's what we got, just without having to pay a cent for it whatsoever. Now, Schaus is in a position to hire whomever he wants and not have to deal with paying two coaches at once.

--It's also pretty hard to continue saying that Arkley is a good or great reporter, Love. In what is the biggest OHIO athletics story of this year or any year over the past three or four years, where has his reporting been on this matter? If he felt that Schaus was being unprofessional, why is this the first reporting/mentioning of it? Sure, it's fun to read his reports from spring football or preseason mentions on depth charts, but he's not hard-hitting, he's not getting at the uncomfortable questions, and he's obviously too chummy with those that he covers to be objective. Saul, for as great a guy as he is, failed in this job in building a successful program.

Maddog13
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RE: Arkley Saul Apologist Article

Posted: 3/14/2019 12:04:59 PM

Boo-hoo. Are we on the verge of giving out participation trophies now at the Convo? I thought basketball was a competitive sport? My God, have Bobcat fans become that beaten down and hopeless over losing that they have become soft? Yes, the game is about winning, and, yes, you can have all these great qualities, but will lose your job at the end of the day if you don't win. What is this pity-party related to Saul really about? Lost innocence? Come on, folks, really?!?! The only thing that is becoming clear to me is that Bobcat basketball is beginning to resemble the acceptance and tolerance of losing that was so acceptable in the football program for so many years. Thank God that has changed. What is so wrong with expecting the Bobcats to not only win, but win big? This Ohio basketball program has had a reputation of being very dangerous, and now this program is lucky to win even a slight bit of respect from other programs in the MAC, let alone around the country. I want a GROWL not a MEOW. Enough of this. Toughen up folks, and lets get this program back to the top of the MAC.

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