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Topic: The Fall of Saul

Topic: The Fall of Saul

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Buck.Cat
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The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 9:00:16 AM

I'll admit it. I was a Saulcoholic. When he was announced as the new head coach, I thought Phillips would keep the program heading in the direction that Groce built and Christian maintained. Fast forward 5 years and it's pretty clear Phillips was a failed hire. He was unprepared for the step up to MAC and it's obvious in his inability to recruit Division 1 mens basketball players. During his tenure, OU continues to get passed by other conference programs. I just hope that the current or future Athletic Director makes a hire that gets the program back to the level that we experienced earlier this decade. It's crazy to think it's been 7 years since the sweet 16 run that elevated the program to heights that are now a distant memory.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 9:54:58 AM

I feel like this post could have been added to one of the 15 threads about firing Saul.

OU_Country
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 9:57:00 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I feel like this post could have been added to one of the 15 threads about firing Saul.

SBH
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 10:22:10 AM

In reading a few recent tweets from Jason Arkley, it seems he is a Saul and Schaus apologist. If only Tony Campbell wouldn't have broken his foot, we'd be singing Saul's praises today.

Please.

Our misfortune on the injury front has nothing to do with the caliber of Saul's recruits.

Just a terrible string of decisions by our AD with respect to this program.

Last Edited: 1/30/2019 10:28:38 AM by SBH

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 10:27:27 AM

Hindsight's 20/20, etc.

Nobody disagreed with the Saul hiring at the time. It didn't work out.

Why there's such a need to point fingers and parcel out blame is beyond me. We'll move on and hire a new coach in a few months. Until then, no need to froth at the mouth and drag Saul and Schaus down. These things happen.

SBH
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 10:29:37 AM

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

Buck.Cat
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 10:32:56 AM

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

Was hiring Holtmann away from Gardner-Webb ever a possibility at the time?

cbus cat fan
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 10:46:06 AM

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

I remember reading that Ball State's players hated Coach Rick Majerus when he first got there (whom I am not comparing to Coach Christian.) The Cardinals went 14-14 Majerus first year and went 29-3 the next year with basically the same players! The next year Majerus went to Utah and Coach Dick Hunskaer took them to the Elite 8 only losing to UNLV after the Cardinal had them on the ropes, losing by one bucket. UNLV blew out Duke in the championship game (the Blue Devils lost by 30.) Ball State gave them the closest game of the whole tournament.

The idea that players are suppose to have warm, fuzzy feelings about their coach is beyond my understanding. Those Ball State players who didn't like Coach Majerus at first, but later said he really made them become the players and the men they are now. Also, when Coach Majerus got to Muncie the talent level of that squad made our starting lineup look like Buffalo on steroids. The same squad that eventually ended up 29-3 and came within a bucket of making it to the Final Four.

Last Edited: 1/30/2019 10:47:11 AM by cbus cat fan

OU_Country
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:14:10 AM

SBH wrote:

Yes and no. The sequence of events, from Tony, to Jaaron leaving, to the rash of injuries last year, were they different, might have changed things a little. Or it may not have - I don't have a crystal ball. The thing that's killing Ohio right now on the court more than anything else is guard play. Injuries to Dartis and Gollon play a big part in that. But you also have to have someone behind a 4th year Jr. and 4th year Sr. to be capable players that can make shots.

The thing that hurts Ohio in the day to day relationship with fans, students, and the game day experiences, is squarely on Schaus, and those under Schaus, and the crappy and constant movement of games by TV because of the MAC Office.

OU_Country
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:17:24 AM

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

I'm not sure I 100% buy that. He's helped a few of his former players get into the coaching ranks.

And, what if JC had stayed? It's not as if his last recruiting class here that he left for Saul was full of world beaters. A thought worth considering anyway.

GoCats105
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:36:54 AM

Buck.Cat wrote:

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

Was hiring Holtmann away from Gardner-Webb ever a possibility at the time?

This is where I'm at. The players wanted to retain Dustin Ford, but I have to imagine we could have been able to buy out a contract at Gardner-Webb for Holtmann.

GoCats105
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:38:30 AM

SBH wrote:

In reading a few recent tweets from Jason Arkley, it seems he is a Saul and Schaus apologist.

Which is funny, because during last season's debacle Saul got a little testy with Arkley during a presser.

OU_Country
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:42:30 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

Buck.Cat wrote:

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

Was hiring Holtmann away from Gardner-Webb ever a possibility at the time?

This is where I'm at. The players wanted to retain Dustin Ford, but I have to imagine we could have been able to buy out a contract at Gardner-Webb for Holtmann.

As we move forward, this line of thinking, and how Schaus, Nellis, and anyone else involved in the decision making view something like this will tell us a lot. Are they looking to get the best coach they can, no matter what, or the best one that doesn't have a buyout, or other small demands they're unwilling to meet?

I said it in another thread somewhere, but the level of commitment from those folks should reflect in the expectations and excitement for fans and ticket buyers. Or at least it will for me when season ticket renewal times come up this summer.

cc-cat
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:51:27 AM

OU_Country wrote:

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

And if Cooper misses the shot against Akron then Groce is still here.

GoCats105
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 11:51:33 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

It's the Sweet 16 factor and the Georgetown win factor. Those things were such monumental parts of Ohio basketball in recent history, that anything less than that feels like an absolute failure with no regard for the people in charge. "I BLAME YOU! YOU MADE MY OHIO BASKETBALL TEAM BAD!"

Now, am I happy with how things have worked? No. Do I think Ohio should make a move at this point? Probably, if only because the program is stagnant and has virtually no life behind it other than those of us on this message board. And even we complain about the atmosphere surrounding the Convo. What people don't realize is this pretty normal in the life of a midmajor team in NCAA Division I basketball. We are what we are.

Ohio didn't capitalize on the momentum it had from the Sweet 16 run with a couple of...not bad hires, but maybe not necessarily the right fit? So here we are. It happens. The real question is, how do we get back to that? It starts with the commitment from the Prez, AD and hiring the right next guy if they do make a move.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 12:01:49 PM

GoCats105 wrote:

Buck.Cat wrote:

SBH wrote:

If we don't hire Jim Christian, whom the players hated, we wouldn't be in this position today.

Was hiring Holtmann away from Gardner-Webb ever a possibility at the time?

This is where I'm at. The players wanted to retain Dustin Ford, but I have to imagine we could have been able to buy out a contract at Gardner-Webb for Holtmann.

I think people here too frequently make the mistake of viewing career choices in a vacuum as if the coaches themselves don't have additional context and relationships that are informing their decisions.

Your thought process here is basically that Ohio is a better job than Gardner-Webb, and therefore Holtmann would have jumped at the opportunity to leave Gardner-Webb.

But that misses the point entirely. The Ohio job would have to be better than the Butler job, not the Gardner-Webb job. At that point Holtmann's exactly a year away from taking the Butler gig. He understands the trajectory of his career and the sorts of opportunities he's likely to get; hell, he probably even knows Brad Stevens well enough to know he's interested in an NBA job the Butler job could well be open soon, and likely has a good enough relationship with Butler's AD to know that in that scenario he'd be a top candidate.

The Ohio job doesn't just have to be better than a coach's current job. It has to the as good as or better than that coach's NEXT job, too. That's why I think Boals is a tough hire for OU, and why I think it's overly simplistic to say we could have bought Holtman out of Gardner-Webb.

OU_Country
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 12:13:54 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

The Ohio job doesn't just have to be better than a coach's current job. It has to the as good as or better than that coach's NEXT job, too. That's why I think Boals is a tough hire for OU, and why I think it's overly simplistic to say we could have bought Holtman out of Gardner-Webb.

As it relates to Boals, I agree. This is the type of thing I've been trying to say about him - who says he wants to come here, and why would he? (besides love of Alma Mater, but who says he has that necessarily?)

Related to Holtmann though, I'm interested to know if they had the resources at their disposal if they had chosen to do so. I'm sure we'll never know, but I'm still curious.

FearLeon
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 12:33:16 PM

Good stuff here...but why was another thread created on this topic?

And I just read Arkley's tweets. Man...he just won't really tackle this issue. And he really does look like a Saul apologist saying that basically all would have been fine in the Saul regime if TC didn't break his foot???? Come on man. I get that Saul and Schaus won't discuss this topic on the record for obvious reasons. However, we are at the point of the season where Arkley has to start addressing it as the guy who covers this team closer than anyone else. You don't need quotes from Saul and Schaus to write about it. Grow a pair and discuss the future of Ohio basketball that is going to make a major change in roughly 45 days.

Last Edited: 1/30/2019 12:39:00 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Ted Thompson
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 12:51:04 PM

I don't believe Campbell's injury would have impacted Saul's performance at Ohio unless it somehow positively impacted recruiting. It wasn't a slam dunk they were winning the MAC with Tony. However, if they had, it very easily could have led to a contract extension. In that sense, it could have impacted Saul's tenure at Ohio.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

OU_Country
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 1:21:37 PM

FearLeon wrote:

Twice in a few weeks, we agree. Hell is freezing over....oh wait, it almost literally is in Ohio.

Anyway, totally agree - seems time to start asking the questions, and writing about the responses, followed by his own lines of thinking on the topic. Seems odd that it's being avoided with almost half the MAC season behind us.

Buck.Cat
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 1:45:37 PM

If you guys have not noticed, Arkley tosses softballs and plays nice with Solich & Company as well. It would be nice to see someone in the Athens media (I'm laughing as I type that) actually hold coaches and the Athletic Department accountable.

FearLeon
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 2:16:06 PM

OU_Country wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

At this pace, we'll be exchanging Christmas cards soon....haha.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

FearLeon
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 2:16:49 PM

Buck.Cat wrote:

Maybe someone in the student media will step up? I mean...no options available in the "Athens Media".

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Bobcat1996
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 2:36:34 PM

It is still all about March in the MAC. Maybe Ohio will get lucky and win some games in Cleveland in March. March was a good month for Groce, so maybe Saul can get some of that luck going his way.

FearLeon
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RE: The Fall of Saul

Posted: 1/30/2019 2:39:14 PM

Bobcat1996 wrote:

It is still all about March in the MAC. Maybe Ohio will get lucky and win some games in Cleveland in March. March was a good month for Groce, so maybe Saul can get some of that luck going his way.

Some games? He'll need to win all four to keep his job.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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