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Topic:  Players leaving this program

Topic:  Players leaving this program
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71 BOBCAT
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  Message Not Read  Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 11:40:59 AM 
I for 1 am getting a little concerned with, not only 2 players this year leaving, but there have been others during Saul's tenure that have opted out come the spring. This timing is not good as all the players that are left were not offered scholarships during the earlier period which says something about their talent level. Saul really hasen't had much success since he has come to Ohio. Now I know and realize some of the issues but still these departures are troublesome. It just appears that this seems to be a pattern. It leaves me to believe that Saul may not be a good judge of talent, and player character, not to mention a players commitment to the program.
Does anyone else share the same concerns?



GO BOBCATS
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 12:09:06 PM 
NO

Or as the kind Indian on the phone answering my support questions in his thick accent says..."not a problem"

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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Buckeye to Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 12:54:42 PM 
I'm not as concerned about these kids leaving. The only one that I really got concerned with was Ryan Taylor to Evansville. I felt the kid came into a situation that was not good at all and again, I attribute to Saul having to start in a hole. This year for me will be a big barometer for SP and staff and hope that they can get 20 wins now that their processes are in place and their kids are there. That and a bit tougher of a schedule. The Jaaron one I had heard about for months was going to happen and not all that surprised.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 1:05:27 PM 
Kids transfer everywhere, for all kinds of reasons. Having one a year leave isn't really a big deal in my opinion.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 1:26:08 PM 
71...no.

40% of Div I players transfer by the end of their sophomore years. I don't like the transferitis in college hoops, but it's a unfortunate fact. This isn't a Saul thing.
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Chicken George
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 1:41:03 PM 
When you’re simply a fan, with no specific experience inside any given profession like a basketball team/coach, you can only apply what you know to any circumstance in an attempt to make sense of it. In my world, where there’s lots of turnover, we like to categories those that leave into 3 general categories:
1) Our Fault: Good hire, we simply mismanaged the person/ situation.
2) Their Fault: Would still hire them again, have the tools to be successful, they just screwed it up.
3) Bad Hire From the Get-Go: Looking back, we hired poorly. Our fault for initial hire.

In the case of Dozier, I feel like I’d place him in category #3 (bad hire). Doomed from the outset. As for Butler, we as fans would need to have more data. I will say however, for as short and desperate as the bench was last year, SP still didn’t have the confidence to give him a ton of run. And I feel like that’s been a trend as no matter how many guys we have available, he plays/trusts very few when push comes to shove. But I wouldn’t have a clue, as a fan, which of the three categories Butler best fits in.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 1:46:15 PM 
Chicken George wrote:
When you’re simply a fan, with no specific experience inside any given profession like a basketball team/coach, you can only apply what you know to any circumstance in an attempt to make sense of it. In my world, where there’s lots of turnover, we like to categories those that leave into 3 general categories:
1) Our Fault: Good hire, we simply mismanaged the person/ situation.
2) Their Fault: Would still hire them again, have the tools to be successful, they just screwed it up.
3) Bad Hire From the Get-Go: Looking back, we hired poorly. Our fault for initial hire.

In the case of Dozier, I feel like I’d place him in category #3 (bad hire). Doomed from the outset. As for Butler, we as fans would need to have more data. I will say however, for as short and desperate as the bench was last year, SP still didn’t have the confidence to give him a ton of run. And I feel like that’s been a trend as no matter how many guys we have available, he plays/trusts very few when push comes to shove. But I wouldn’t have a clue, as a fan, which of the three categories Butler best fits in.


Good post^^^. Fans might disagree a lot here on the direction of the program, but I think we can all agree that the staff whiffed on EDoz badly. They all can't be T Kirk, DJ Cooper and Tone....I get that, but EDoz was a giant swing and miss.

Last Edited: 3/25/2018 2:19:13 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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Buckeye to Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 2:24:00 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Chicken George wrote:
When you’re simply a fan, with no specific experience inside any given profession like a basketball team/coach, you can only apply what you know to any circumstance in an attempt to make sense of it. In my world, where there’s lots of turnover, we like to categories those that leave into 3 general categories:
1) Our Fault: Good hire, we simply mismanaged the person/ situation.
2) Their Fault: Would still hire them again, have the tools to be successful, they just screwed it up.
3) Bad Hire From the Get-Go: Looking back, we hired poorly. Our fault for initial hire.

In the case of Dozier, I feel like I’d place him in category #3 (bad hire). Doomed from the outset. As for Butler, we as fans would need to have more data. I will say however, for as short and desperate as the bench was last year, SP still didn’t have the confidence to give him a ton of run. And I feel like that’s been a trend as no matter how many guys we have available, he plays/trusts very few when push comes to shove. But I wouldn’t have a clue, as a fan, which of the three categories Butler best fits in.


Good post^^^. Fans might disagree a lot here on the direction of the program, but I think we can all agree that the staff whiffed on EDoz badly. They all can't be T Kirk, DJ Cooper and Tone....I get that, but EDoz was a giant swing and miss.


+1 Still feeling the breeze from this one!
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Obc2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 3:00:01 PM 
I must admit I was surprised Dozier never saw the floor. he looked decent enough to my untrained eye in the very limited minutes I saw him, especially considering Ohio needed anybody to suit up early this season.

I thought he could play a few minutes in a crunch. I've seen walk on football players do so multiple times on multiple MAC teams over the years.
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BobcatSports
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 4:26:02 PM 
Geez Leon do you think Saul is the only coach who has ever swung and missed on a recruit? Yea Dozier didn’t pan out as hoped. Add him to the list of thousands across the fruited plains, he’s not a virgin in this group. Lots and lots and lots of D1 programs have tons of recruits that have a hard time seeing the floor.

I’ve recently relocated to the heart of ACC country. Yea even the mighty Duke, UNC and NC State have highly, highly, highly touted recruits who didn’t quite be the end all be all and either see limited court time or transfer out when they don’t see a future from their seat on the bench. Happens to the best of them.
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OU SLAM
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 4:33:43 PM 
Players like Butler should have seen more playing time on the floor. This is one of the main reasons, I bet he is taking a hike. SP has only relied on a rotation of 7-8 players most of the season and failed to make that starting lineup adjustment until late in the season. When clearly you can’t have a player out there for 28-30 mins with 0-2 points per game. I don’t think most of you can evaluate Ellis Dozier because he didn’t see the floor long enough to break a sweat. He only got garbage minutes during his time at OU. Looks like once SP made his decision not to use him, he sat the bench holding a athletic scholarship that was never utilized in basketball. I put that on the coach. Hopefully next season, ALL scholarships will be used and all players are ready to play. It hurts a team when you are unable to use your bench effectively. Injuries/ illness will come, its next man up.

Last Edited: 3/25/2018 4:36:36 PM by OU SLAM
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 4:58:57 PM 
BobcatSports wrote:
Geez Leon do you think Saul is the only coach who has ever swung and missed on a recruit? Yea Dozier didn’t pan out as hoped. Add him to the list of thousands across the fruited plains, he’s not a virgin in this group. Lots and lots and lots of D1 programs have tons of recruits that have a hard time seeing the floor.

I’ve recently relocated to the heart of ACC country. Yea even the mighty Duke, UNC and NC State have highly, highly, highly touted recruits who didn’t quite be the end all be all and either see limited court time or transfer out when they don’t see a future from their seat on the bench. Happens to the best of them.


No....I don't think that Saul has been the only coach to whiff on recruits and I never said that. Again, words being inserted into my post. What part of "they all can't be T Kirk, DJ and Tone" did you not understand? The big difference being at Duke, UNC and NC State...when one doesn't pan out...they replace with another McDonald's All-American. At the Mid-Major level, a swing and a miss like EDoz hurts more. Remember the LaFerla twins and Andy Kanzig during the Hunter era?? That's just to name a few. Can't have those big of whiffs because Mid-Majors don't have the depth of Duke, UNC, NC State and other Power 5 schools. You give somebody a full ride at a MAC school, they better be at the very least "serviceable". All I know is with our lack of depth this year, we could have used another "serviceable" body. To be on full scholarship and not see the floor for this year's team says a ton.

Last Edited: 3/25/2018 8:20:55 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 9:32:21 PM 
Remember that Butler was injured later in the year and that probably contributed to his limited minutes, but he also just had too much trouble with Turnovers. I think he was a high potential kid and I hope he does well, but if you can't rely on your point guard to get the ball up the floor when the starter is sitting, then it's going to be hard to find minutes. He seemed to do a nice job creating space in the lane and getting good looks, but he just didn't knock down enough shots to demand more floor time. and when push came to shove, it was Gollon grabbing those extra minutes.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 11:10:45 PM 
So. Ellis D. was an epic "swing and a miss" - ? Just wait until the most recent recruiting class arrives. I won't name names to avoid beating a dead horse but...
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Bobcatzblitz
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/25/2018 11:16:48 PM 
Well me gots the feeling that this is Sauls make or broke year coming up..
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 8:59:14 AM 
I'm curious:

How many complete whiffs have we seen in Saul's time? Dozier is probably the only one.

Kendall Crute - verballed and signed with Jim Christian's staff, Saul got him to keep his commitment when hired, but he eventually stopped playing basketball altogether.

Ryan Taylor - not a whiff

Mike Laster - not a whiff

Khari Harley and Wadley Mompremier - they were both Christian recruits, and their bodies let them down. They weren't whiffs.

James Gollon - from the growth we saw this year, not a whiff

Jordan Dartis - nope

Gavin Block - nope

Doug Taylor - nope

Kenny Kaminski and Jaaron Simmons - nope

Jason Carter - nope

Rodney Culver - you could make the argument this was a whiff, but sometimes things just don't work out. Culver was an athletic kid from a great high school program (Pick Central). I think this one was probably more about playing time than the staff not evaluating the talent correctly. Those things happen.

Zach Butler - probably the same reasons as Rodney.

Teyvion Kirk - nope

Kevin Mickle - nope, and he's probably my favorite given the hate he got on this board when the staff signed him

AJ Gareri - haven't seen enough

Ben Vander Plas - haven't seen at all

Murrell, McMurray and Springs - go ahead and call these whiffs if you want but we haven't seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. All new incoming players have a learning curve. Some greater than others. You have to see if they can be developed.

_______

I will say this - if any of these new recruits can come in and put in the work like Mike Laster and Jimmy Gollon have, then Ohio will be fine. Those two guys should be the examples that each player looks at for motivation. Get in the gym, get in the weight room, get in the film room and bust ass. Playing time will come and wins will come.

Players transfer all the time. Sometimes the fit isn't there. Sometimes the playing time isn't. That's 2018 College Basketball folks. IT HAPPENS.

Last Edited: 3/26/2018 9:01:59 AM by GoCats105
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 9:27:09 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:
I'm curious:

How many complete whiffs have we seen in Saul's time? Dozier is probably the only one.

Kendall Crute - verballed and signed with Jim Christian's staff, Saul got him to keep his commitment when hired, but he eventually stopped playing basketball altogether.

Ryan Taylor - not a whiff

Mike Laster - not a whiff

Khari Harley and Wadley Mompremier - they were both Christian recruits, and their bodies let them down. They weren't whiffs.

James Gollon - from the growth we saw this year, not a whiff

Jordan Dartis - nope

Gavin Block - nope

Doug Taylor - nope

Kenny Kaminski and Jaaron Simmons - nope

Jason Carter - nope

Rodney Culver - you could make the argument this was a whiff, but sometimes things just don't work out. Culver was an athletic kid from a great high school program (Pick Central). I think this one was probably more about playing time than the staff not evaluating the talent correctly. Those things happen.

Zach Butler - probably the same reasons as Rodney.

Teyvion Kirk - nope

Kevin Mickle - nope, and he's probably my favorite given the hate he got on this board when the staff signed him

AJ Gareri - haven't seen enough

Ben Vander Plas - haven't seen at all

Murrell, McMurray and Springs - go ahead and call these whiffs if you want but we haven't seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. All new incoming players have a learning curve. Some greater than others. You have to see if they can be developed.

_______

I will say this - if any of these new recruits can come in and put in the work like Mike Laster and Jimmy Gollon have, then Ohio will be fine. Those two guys should be the examples that each player looks at for motivation. Get in the gym, get in the weight room, get in the film room and bust ass. Playing time will come and wins will come.

Players transfer all the time. Sometimes the fit isn't there. Sometimes the playing time isn't. That's 2018 College Basketball folks. IT HAPPENS.


Laster was benched, he was almost lost. That would have been a real debacle, you have to play the best players. Block and Gollon started over him at one point and that is crazy.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 9:47:53 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:
How many complete whiffs have we seen in Saul's time?


It's all relative. How many complete whiffs when compared to UB's roster or when compared to NIU's roster? Or how many whiffs when compared to a middle-of-the-road MAC team's roster? It's all relative. I guess it comes down to where you hoped/thought this program would be this far into a coach's tenure.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 9:51:01 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
How many complete whiffs have we seen in Saul's time?


It's all relative. How many complete whiffs when compared to UB's roster or when compared to NIU's roster? Or how many whiffs when compared to a middle-of-the-road MAC team's roster? It's all relative. I guess it comes down to where you hoped/thought this program would be this far into a coach's tenure.


Of course. Really, depending on your opinion of the program you could call anyone a whiff or not a whiff.
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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 10:09:01 AM 

I think whiffs are the wrong measure. You apparently can have a lot of non-whiffs and finish well below .500 in the MAC. The measure should be how many All-MAC players you can bring into the program and retain. Because that's what it takes to contend for a MAC Championship. Saul has not had great luck to be sure. If Tony had not been injured last year I think Ohio had a shot to win the MAC Tourney. And if they do that, Saul would have a lot more capital with all of us.

Having said that, it's hard to say that Saul hasn't underperformed in recruiting. Of the 12 (using your list above) HS recruits he's brought in, not one has made an All-MAC 1st, 2nd or 3rd Team. That will not make you a MAC contender. Here's hoping the incoming class, a healthy Carter (could be an All-MAC player) a healthy Vander Plas (I hear good things) and Kirk's development (could be an All-MAC player) change that.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 10:18:02 AM 
Ted Thompson wrote:
I think whiffs are the wrong measure. You apparently can have a lot of non-whiffs and finish well below .500 in the MAC. The measure should be how many All-MAC players you can bring into the program and retain. Because that's what it takes to contend for a MAC Championship. Saul has not had great luck to be sure. If Tony had not been injured last year I think Ohio had a shot to win the MAC Tourney. And if they do that, Saul would have a lot more capital with all of us.
Having said that, it's hard to say that Saul hasn't underperformed in recruiting. Of the 12 (using your list above) HS recruits he's brought in, not one has made an All-MAC 1st, 2nd or 3rd Team. That will not make you a MAC contender. Here's hoping the incoming class, a healthy Carter (could be an All-MAC player) a healthy Vander Plas (I hear good things) and Kirk's development (could be an All-MAC player) change that.


Agreed Ted. I just think it's silly that people throw the word "whiff" around so loosely like it's happening all the time and every recruit that doesn't pan out or leaves the program is a whiff.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 10:30:22 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:
Ted Thompson wrote:
I think whiffs are the wrong measure. You apparently can have a lot of non-whiffs and finish well below .500 in the MAC. The measure should be how many All-MAC players you can bring into the program and retain. Because that's what it takes to contend for a MAC Championship. Saul has not had great luck to be sure. If Tony had not been injured last year I think Ohio had a shot to win the MAC Tourney. And if they do that, Saul would have a lot more capital with all of us.
Having said that, it's hard to say that Saul hasn't underperformed in recruiting. Of the 12 (using your list above) HS recruits he's brought in, not one has made an All-MAC 1st, 2nd or 3rd Team. That will not make you a MAC contender. Here's hoping the incoming class, a healthy Carter (could be an All-MAC player) a healthy Vander Plas (I hear good things) and Kirk's development (could be an All-MAC player) change that.


Agreed Ted. I just think it's silly that people throw the word "whiff" around so loosely like it's happening all the time and every recruit that doesn't pan out or leaves the program is a whiff.



The other funny thing I hear is that MAC rosters (or any really) are normally full of 13 regular contributors. I ask again if any of these people have watched basketball ever at any level.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 10:31:49 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:


Murrell, McMurray and Springs - go ahead and call these whiffs if you want but we haven't seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. All new incoming players have a learning curve. Some greater than others. You have to see if they can be developed.



I will go ahead and double-dog guarantee Springs will never be a legit d-l basketball player. Go ahead and bookmark this post if you want. But when he ends up at NAIA MountainValleyCreek Nazarene College...

(you don't have to be "Peter Brand" from Moneyball to call this one)

Last Edited: 3/26/2018 10:39:18 AM by greencat
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 2:01:19 PM 
greencat wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:


Murrell, McMurray and Springs - go ahead and call these whiffs if you want but we haven't seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. All new incoming players have a learning curve. Some greater than others. You have to see if they can be developed.



I will go ahead and double-dog guarantee Springs will never be a legit d-l basketball player. Go ahead and bookmark this post if you want. But when he ends up at NAIA MountainValleyCreek Nazarene College...

(you don't have to be "Peter Brand" from Moneyball to call this one)



Cool. I'll sit here and see what happens and trust this staff knows more about recruiting D1 basketball players than I do.

The kid is going to be a project, no doubts there and I think most of the people on the recruiting board think that way too. CC-Cat has a really good analysis on him over on that thread that's a good read. Lays it out honestly that he's got a ton of work to do to get to the level Ohio needs him to be. But you can't teach his height, length and athleticism. It will be up to the staff to groom him and him to put the work in.

Something else to be mindful of: Springs hasn't been playing basketball very long from what I'm reading. Mostly just high school. The last player we had like that? Doug Taylor. Started playing late in the game and look where he is now. Turned out pretty well for a guy who started playing in 9th grade and missed an entire year to an ACL tear. If Springs can duplicate that? I think the staff has done their job well.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Players leaving this program
   Posted: 3/26/2018 2:16:10 PM 
Marquis Horne - transferred
James Kinney - kicked off the team
Ethan Jacobs - transferred
Tyquane Goard - transferred
Kenny Belton - non-contributor as a transfer to Ohio
Alex Kellogg - non-contributor as a transfer to Ohio

Just a few recruiting whiffs for Ohio under John Groce's leadership. Jacobs ended up having a solid career but had zero impact at Ohio. Just like the rest of the list.

Last Edited: 3/26/2018 2:16:49 PM by 100%Cat
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