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Topic:  Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize

Topic:  Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
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Bobcatzblitz
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  Message Not Read  Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 7:00:36 PM 
Game Changer..could be bad for Ohio?
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PalmerFest
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 8:19:35 PM 
First step in a long process.  This is an agency level decision and will be appealed to the courts so its a long time before there is any impact on Ohio.  

Initial decision is not surprising.  NLRB tends to lean towards the union standpoint on many issues.  Interesting thing is that the NLRB director said the scholarship is compensation.  So, is that compensation taxable?  Wonder how many athletes could fork out $20,000 to get a $70,000 "scholarship" to play at Northwestern? 
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 10:04:28 PM 
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/544/article/p2p-797.../

wow.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 10:17:19 PM 
At this point this only applies to private schools.  When it comes to state schools about half of the states are right to work states so it wouldn't apply there.  Ohio does allow unionization of state employees but again for now, this only applies to private schools.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 10:59:25 PM 
PalmerFest wrote:
First step in a long process.  This is an agency level decision and will be appealed to the courts so its a long time before there is any impact on Ohio.  

Initial decision is not surprising.  NLRB tends to lean towards the union standpoint on many issues.  Interesting thing is that the NLRB director said the scholarship is compensation.  So, is that compensation taxable?  Wonder how many athletes could fork out $20,000 to get a $70,000 "scholarship" to play at Northwestern? 

Exactly. The decision will be appealed, without a doubt. If it holds up that the scholarship is compensation, I can't imagine how it isn't taxable, though.


Alan Swank wrote:
At this point this only applies to private schools.  When it comes to state schools about half of the states are right to work states so it wouldn't apply there.  Ohio does allow unionization of state employees but again for now, this only applies to private schools.

Right to work doesn't affect whether or not people CAN be in unions, only whether or not they HAVE to be unions even if they don't want to be in one.  Thus, in a non-right to work state, if a player didn't want to unionize, but the bulk of his teammates did want to unionize, they can force the player opposed to unionization to play union dues.

You are correct, though, that not all states recognize the rights of state employees to unionize, which is a separate issue.





“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 11:18:03 PM 
Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote no on unionization --> everything remains the same

Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote yes on unionization --> NW likely drops football

Appeal overturns ruling --> everything remains the same
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 11:22:29 PM 
I think all scholarships (athletic, academic, and otherwise) are deemed "income" for Internal Revenue Code purposes, but there is a statutory exemption to the extent the scholarships do not exceed tuition, fees, etc. I ran into a problem in law school when the school disbursed one and a half years' worth of financial aid in a single calendar year (spring semester disbursed early January, fall semester in August, and 2nd spring semester in late December). I was lucky enough that my total income was still low enough that I didn't owe any tax on it, but I did have to report the excess as income.


But as for the unionization.......here's the nightmare scenario: Northwestern appeals the decision to the NLRB. The Supreme Court rules against the government in the Noel Canning case, holding that the recess appointments were invalid. Congressional gridlock prevents further appointments, and the NLRB comes to a halt due to a lack of a quorum. Football is cancelled.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/26/2014 11:42:24 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote no on unionization --> everything remains the same

Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote yes on unionization --> NW likely drops football

Appeal overturns ruling --> everything remains the same


You forgot to add some steps there: --> players file complaint with NLRB --> players get temporary restraining order barring NW from dropping football; OR --> B1G threatens to drop NW --> NW reinstates football

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 10:48:15 AM 
This is quite the Pandora's Box. It is hard to guess all the things that will come from it.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 10:51:28 AM 
L.C. wrote:
This is quite the Pandora's Box. It is hard to guess all the things that will come from it.


What I personally hope will come from it is an informed and intelligent discourse on the relationship between big time college athletics and the academic institutions that they represent.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 11:23:51 AM 
I agree, Alan, but I might as well hope that my head becomes slightly less bald each time I look in the mirror,
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 12:12:43 PM 
SBH wrote:
I agree, Alan, but I might as well hope that my head becomes slightly less bald each time I look in the mirror,



Having a bit more hair gives me to the freedom to dream big dreams.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 12:15:48 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
OhioStunter wrote:
Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote no on unionization --> everything remains the same

Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote yes on unionization --> NW likely drops football

Appeal overturns ruling --> everything remains the same


You forgot to add some steps there: --> players file complaint with NLRB --> players get temporary restraining order barring NW from dropping football; OR --> B1G threatens to drop NW --> NW reinstates football

Of course. My post is a complete oversimplification of the process. However, a legitimate outcome could be universities dropping the programs represented by unions. It would not be unlike businesses closing stores or branches that end up unionizing because they don't want to deal with the new sets of rules and costs that unions typically bring.


Disclaimer: I was once a member of a union and grew up in a union family

 
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 12:23:46 PM 
L.C. wrote:
This is quite the Pandora's Box. It is hard to guess all the things that will come from it.


I would say this is the beginning of the end of college athletics at the amateur level as we know it. However, I think the beginning of the end already happened with all of the conference realignment. This is just another step in the process.

Pandora's box includes Title IX issues, worker's compensation issues, free agency/transfer issues, and a whole host of other things. By paying athletes, the NCAA and it's member institutions are entering the realm of another galaxy.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 1:00:04 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
L.C. wrote:
This is quite the Pandora's Box. It is hard to guess all the things that will come from it.


I would say this is the beginning of the end of college athletics at the amateur level as we know it. However, I think the beginning of the end already happened with all of the conference realignment. This is just another step in the process.

Pandora's box includes Title IX issues, worker's compensation issues, free agency/transfer issues, and a whole host of other things. By paying athletes, the NCAA and it's member institutions are entering the realm of another galaxy.


An NFL D-League would seem like a way to allow the market to correct a lot of these problems. The mega-bucks conferences are a de facto D-League as it is. And therein lies the problem with creating an NFL D-League: barriers to market entry. And THAT leads us back to the anti-trust argument against the NCAA.
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BobcatsWin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 1:13:59 PM 
I'm lost at who these athletes would be employees of?  Yes, the NCAA makes a lot of revenue, but for the most part the institutions (aka, their future employers) do not.  Alabama was the top revenue earner in 2008 (the most recent year I could easily find on ESPN).  They made $123.8 M.  They were also the top spender and had expenses of $123.4 M.  There doesn't seem to be much room in the budget for paying any new "employees".

Now if they're unionizing to bargain for better work environments, healthcare, etc., good for them.  I'm not sure this was the best way to get those things, but to each their own.  If they think they're going to become millionaires, I hate to tell them but the only people that will be making money off this move is going to be the attorneys.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 1:19:12 PM 
BobcatsWin wrote:
I'm lost at who these athletes would be employees of?  Yes, the NCAA makes a lot of revenue, but for the most part the institutions (aka, their future employers) do not.  Alabama was the top revenue earner in 2008 (the most recent year I could easily find on ESPN).  They made $123.8 M.  They were also the top spender and had expenses of $123.4 M.  There doesn't seem to be much room in the budget for paying any new "employees".


That's why I think universities would drop the unionized program. Of course, a consequence of that would be the reduced funding of non-revenue sports, if those could even continue to exist.





 
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 1:22:15 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
OhioStunter wrote:
Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote no on unionization --> everything remains the same

Appeal rejected --> NW players hold vote to unionize --> players vote yes on unionization --> NW likely drops football

Appeal overturns ruling --> everything remains the same


You forgot to add some steps there: --> players file complaint with NLRB --> players get temporary restraining order barring NW from dropping football; OR --> B1G threatens to drop NW --> NW reinstates football

As I understand the NLRB ruling (and ALL that I know of it I heard about on the radio), only scholarship athletes would be eligible to vote on OR join the union, as non-scholarship athletes are more akin to volunteers than employees. So the other alternative for Northwestern would be to stop offering scholarships to to football players should they decide to unionize. NOTE: I'm not saying that they discontinue existing/already offered scholarships (I think that would be illegal), but there would be no barrier to them getting rid of their football "employees" by attrition and replacing them with "volunteers", other than the effect that this would have on their on-the-field product. When pay to players was discussed some months ago (maybe a year+) Delany specifically mentioned dropping athletic scholarships as one possibility.

 
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BobcatsWin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 1:25:19 PM 
I agree, if this goes full circle, I think we see the formalized structure of what currently exists anyway.  The BCS schools become "union shops", stay in the NCAA and pay players.  The current mid majors and BCS schools like (ironically) Northwestern that can't afford to pay players get all the cast offs from BCS schools, form a new NCAA that makes no money and continue to operate as they always have, essentially making the MAC and schools like Ohio officially second tier...although a much more moral and pure second tier.
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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 2:46:07 PM 
It's my understanding that this ruling only applies to private universities. 

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 2:48:19 PM 
BobcatsWin wrote:
I agree, if this goes full circle, I think we see the formalized structure of what currently exists anyway.  The BCS schools become "union shops", stay in the NCAA and pay players.  The current mid majors and BCS schools like (ironically) Northwestern that can't afford to pay players get all the cast offs from BCS schools, form a new NCAA that makes no money and continue to operate as they always have, essentially making the MAC and schools like Ohio officially second tier...although a much more moral and pure second tier.


The problem is that many of the schools that you refer to are in southern states that do not allow public employees to unionize.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 3:12:50 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
BobcatsWin wrote:
I agree, if this goes full circle, I think we see the formalized structure of what currently exists anyway.  The BCS schools become "union shops", stay in the NCAA and pay players.  The current mid majors and BCS schools like (ironically) Northwestern that can't afford to pay players get all the cast offs from BCS schools, form a new NCAA that makes no money and continue to operate as they always have, essentially making the MAC and schools like Ohio officially second tier...although a much more moral and pure second tier.


The problem is that many of the schools that you refer to are in southern states that do not allow public employees to unionize.


If the B1G figures out a way to pay players, the SEC will too, union or not. There is no way the South will cede a recruiting advantage to the Mid-West.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 4:01:01 PM 
I tend to think that the public-private question is a distraction, as is the differences of laws allowing unionization in one state from another. You can't have a system that works one way for private schools and another way for public, nor one that works in the north only or in the south only. In the end whatever the system evolves into will be the same for everyone.

I think that some of the possible outcomes have been discussed above. One is that the big BCS football powers spin off their football programs and form sort on an NFL farm league, using the same facilities, hiring the same coaches, etc, probably even carrying the same team names. That will solve a lot of problems, and leave the players to unionize, if they want, and take on the owners of the new teams. This is kind of the direction those AQ schools want to go, anyway - they want to be free at last from the NCAA requirements, so something of this nature wouldn't surprise me at all.

With or without the above happening,  mf hits on another possible/probable outcome. It quite possibly could spell the end to athletic scholarships as we know them, not just for football, but for all sports. A university can't afford to have "employees" in any sport, not just football, because that opens up some major cans of worms. Thus, if this ruling holds up, I think that it is inevitable that all athletic scholarships will quickly cease to exist.

I can imagine a new system evolving from what we have. With all athletic scholarships eliminated, and only need-based scholarships available, the AQ teams would be in a situation of more, not less, power. Right now they can recruit 85 players, after which the non-AQ teams have an advantage as a player must choose between walking on at AQ-school, or taking a scholarship to non-AQ school. With no athletic scholarships at any school, there is no reason not to go to AQ-school.

One final comment - we have to realize that there is big money at stake, and there are creative people around. Some novel solutions could pop up. For example, suppose that somehow a new fund were created, say, the "Evil Empire Athletic Fund", and it awards scholarship to needy students who happen to play football, and just coincidentally play for OSU? Since the Evil Empire Fund was independent of the University, the players would not be being "paid" by the University. Since the Fund was charitable in nature, and since the players were doing no work for the fund, they wouldn't be employees of the fund, either....

The box of surprises has just barely been opened. There is much more to come, and we can just watch to see what happens.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Lande71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 5:25:38 PM 
LC - When you say "these teams may carry the same names" - are you saying that The Ohio State University football team could carry the name of -The Cleveland Browns "B team"?  It might solve this Ohio name problem!
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court rules NCAA Football players CAN unionize
   Posted: 3/27/2014 5:38:04 PM 
No, though that could happen. I was thinking that a team might be called "Ohio State", and play in "Ohio Stadium", wearing scarlet, etc, but not be a part of the Ohio State University, but rather pay OSU rent to license the name, use the stadium and other facilities, etc.

Seriously, though, at this point, no one knows how it will all shake out.

Last Edited: 3/27/2014 5:44:30 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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