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Topic:  Another group Investigated

Topic:  Another group Investigated
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  Another group Investigated
   Posted: 12/1/2021 8:21:04 AM 
The Singing Men of Ohio are the latest.

Last Edited: 12/1/2021 9:57:48 AM by BillyTheCat

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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/1/2021 8:28:09 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
The Singing Men of Ohio are the latest.


Say it Ain't So!
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/1/2021 9:28:13 AM 
Total exaggeration. They were told to suspend all activities until complaints about misconduct (filed by one or more members) are investigated.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/1/2021 10:34:31 AM 
Heard about this last night.

The articles in the Athens News and The Post, really don't give any information about why the Cease and Desist Order was issued, other the a vague reference to
a violation to the Student Code of Conduct and endangering the health and safety of its members.

This sounds eerily familiar to what the Office of Community Standards . . . did to the 110.

In the case of 110, the "investigation" could politely be called a "kangaroo court".

Someone makes any kind of accusation and, seemingly before any investigation to see if its even credible, issue a Cease and Desist.

With the 110, months of investigation, which included accepting triple hearsay, came up with nothing.
Unless, "muddying" a band jacket, that you own, is "something".

Of course that didn't stop the Office of Community Standards . . . from timing their order to ruin Homecoming for band members and the people who look forward
to seeming them.
The 110 also had cancel things like their banquet.

Have to check to see what the SMO's calendar looks like.
Nothing like ruining the group's holiday.

The 110's investigation showed how much power the Office of Community . . . has been given.

If the investigation of the SMO produces the same results as the one into the 110,heads need to roll.










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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/2/2021 9:48:11 PM 
Investigations are only warranted when people are guilty. Nobody talks about this.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 10:30:18 AM 
JSF wrote:
Investigations are only warranted when people are guilty. Nobody talks about this.


The issue isn't the investigations, its O.U.'s heavy handed approach to them.

Putting it in the general context of a criminal case:

You get arrested for allegedly committing a crime.

You get freed on bail, excluding specific violent offenses, like murder.

You go back to living your life, while the crime is investigated.

You either get indicted or the charges are dropped.

If the charges stand, you go to trial or plea bargin.

Get found guilty, penalties get implemented ,or you appeal.

With O.U., someone makes an accusation, they access penalties in the form
of a Cease and Desist, before they even investigate.

The organization is under that order, until the investigation is completed,
or they retain legal counsel to fight it.

If the investigation comes up empty, oh well, O.U. did a lot of damage, with no
liability.






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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 11:17:09 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:

The issue isn't the investigations, its O.U.'s heavy handed approach to them.

Putting it in the general context of a criminal case:

You get arrested for allegedly committing a crime.

You get freed on bail, excluding specific violent offenses, like murder.

You go back to living your life, while the crime is investigated.

You either get indicted or the charges are dropped.

If the charges stand, you go to trial or plea bargin.

Get found guilty, penalties get implemented ,or you appeal.

With O.U., someone makes an accusation, they access penalties in the form
of a Cease and Desist, before they even investigate.

The organization is under that order, until the investigation is completed,
or they retain legal counsel to fight it.

If the investigation comes up empty, oh well, O.U. did a lot of damage, with no
liability.


I wish I still had such a rosy view of the fairness of the US legal system. You might want to look up how many people in the United States spend substantial time in prison without having been found guilty of a crime, the personal financial ramifications of that, and the longterm impact that has on access to basic liberties like housing and employment.

The idea that "You get back to living your life while the crime is investigated" is overly simplistic. In those case, all manner of restriction are placed on what people who have been charged with a crime can and cannot do. If you're charged with a DUI, your license is administratively suspended effective immediately. If you're charged with a financial crime, your licensure is suspended. If a teacher's accused of abusing a student, they don't just go back to the classroom the next day.

By and large, the US justice system functions exactly like the scenario that has you up and arms with the Ohio Boys Who Sing (or whatever). It's a system that functions with pleas and accepting fines, independent of guilt, and the repercussions are felt in very direct ways that may not include jail time. I don't think the US Justice system warrants being held up as an example that should be strived towards.




Last Edited: 12/3/2021 11:22:19 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 2:38:42 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I don't think the US Justice system warrants being held up as an example that should be strived towards.



So, what country's Justice System do you think the U.S. should strive towards ?

Your post reminds of the quote often attributed Winston's Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others."


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 4:47:15 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:


So, what country's Justice System do you think the U.S. should strive towards ?

Your post reminds of the quote often attributed Winston's Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others."



Not sure if you're familiar with the World Justice Project, but it's a measure of judicial systems globally taking a variety of factors into account. Primarily, it measures how well justice systems globally manage to maintain their independence from the legislature, avoid corruption, are transparent, offer fundamental rights (like the absence of discrimination), and consider both civil and criminal justice. There's a bunch of other stuff too. Here's a link to the 2021 report: https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/docum... .

The US ranks 27th. Minorities are overwhelmingly more likely to be incarcerated, which is an area where the US takes a huge hit in the ratings. We are also quite susceptible to corruption -- the prevalence of for profit prisons, and the incentives they create for states factor in heavily here. We also see many examples nationally over legislative overreach. For instance, in Shreveport, LA it's illegal to wear baggy pants and 726(!) people were arrested for that.
There are laws making it illegal to give food to the homeless in certain locales. Broadly speaking, legislatures are guilty of using criminal statutes to attempt to solve social issues. That's not the sign of a healthy justice system.

We imprison more people than anybody in the world. Amongst industrialized nations, we imprison people at the highest rate. Violent crime rates have declined decade over decade, and America is as safe as it's ever been.

And those who serve prison sentences have abnormally high rates of recidivism, largely because of poor policy. We make it legal for employers, housing, etc to refuse those with criminal records. Socially, we've effectively decided prison should serve as a lifelong punishment, and treat it as a way to punish, not rehabilitate.

Also damning for the US -- which I alluded to above -- is that a very small percentage of crimes are adjudicated using the constitutionally prescribed method involving a jury trial. 95% of all convictions today come from pleas, not trials. That's exacerbated by the fact that many, many jurisdictions have passed legislation around mandatory minimums, which incentivizes those accused to plea down even when innocent.

Additionally, there's basically no accountability built into the system for the police or prosecutors, two key cogs in enforcing laws. There should be accountabilty and oversight in place for anybody wielding that much power, and by and large there's not.

I could go on. I don't think your Churchill quote applies particularly well here. Nor does any sense of American exceptionalism.

Last Edited: 12/3/2021 6:30:06 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 8:56:52 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


So, what country's Justice System do you think the U.S. should strive towards ?

Your post reminds of the quote often attributed Winston's Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others."



Not sure if you're familiar with the World Justice Project, but it's a measure of judicial systems globally taking a variety of factors into account. Primarily, it measures how well justice systems globally manage to maintain their independence from the legislature, avoid corruption, are transparent, offer fundamental rights (like the absence of discrimination), and consider both civil and criminal justice. There's a bunch of other stuff too. Here's a link to the 2021 report: https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/docum... .

The US ranks 27th. Minorities are overwhelmingly more likely to be incarcerated, which is an area where the US takes a huge hit in the ratings. We are also quite susceptible to corruption -- the prevalence of for profit prisons, and the incentives they create for states factor in heavily here. We also see many examples nationally over legislative overreach. For instance, in Shreveport, LA it's illegal to wear baggy pants and 726(!) people were arrested for that.
There are laws making it illegal to give food to the homeless in certain locales. Broadly speaking, legislatures are guilty of using criminal statutes to attempt to solve social issues. That's not the sign of a healthy justice system.

We imprison more people than anybody in the world. Amongst industrialized nations, we imprison people at the highest rate. Violent crime rates have declined decade over decade, and America is as safe as it's ever been.

And those who serve prison sentences have abnormally high rates of recidivism, largely because of poor policy. We make it legal for employers, housing, etc to refuse those with criminal records. Socially, we've effectively decided prison should serve as a lifelong punishment, and treat it as a way to punish, not rehabilitate.

Also damning for the US -- which I alluded to above -- is that a very small percentage of crimes are adjudicated using the constitutionally prescribed method involving a jury trial. 95% of all convictions today come from pleas, not trials. That's exacerbated by the fact that many, many jurisdictions have passed legislation around mandatory minimums, which incentivizes those accused to plea down even when innocent.

Additionally, there's basically no accountability built into the system for the police or prosecutors, two key cogs in enforcing laws. There should be accountabilty and oversight in place for anybody wielding that much power, and by and large there's not.

I could go on. I don't think your Churchill quote applies particularly well here. Nor does any sense of American exceptionalism.


This a very detailed post.

But,unless I missed it,I can't seem to find anywhere where you say what other country's justice system the US should be striving to emulate ?


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CatsUp
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Member Since: 4/15/2019
Post Count: 476

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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 9:07:22 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


So, what country's Justice System do you think the U.S. should strive towards ?

Your post reminds of the quote often attributed Winston's Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others."



Not sure if you're familiar with the World Justice Project, but it's a measure of judicial systems globally taking a variety of factors into account. Primarily, it measures how well justice systems globally manage to maintain their independence from the legislature, avoid corruption, are transparent, offer fundamental rights (like the absence of discrimination), and consider both civil and criminal justice. There's a bunch of other stuff too. Here's a link to the 2021 report: https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/docum... .

The US ranks 27th. Minorities are overwhelmingly more likely to be incarcerated, which is an area where the US takes a huge hit in the ratings. We are also quite susceptible to corruption -- the prevalence of for profit prisons, and the incentives they create for states factor in heavily here. We also see many examples nationally over legislative overreach. For instance, in Shreveport, LA it's illegal to wear baggy pants and 726(!) people were arrested for that.
There are laws making it illegal to give food to the homeless in certain locales. Broadly speaking, legislatures are guilty of using criminal statutes to attempt to solve social issues. That's not the sign of a healthy justice system.

We imprison more people than anybody in the world. Amongst industrialized nations, we imprison people at the highest rate. Violent crime rates have declined decade over decade, and America is as safe as it's ever been.

And those who serve prison sentences have abnormally high rates of recidivism, largely because of poor policy. We make it legal for employers, housing, etc to refuse those with criminal records. Socially, we've effectively decided prison should serve as a lifelong punishment, and treat it as a way to punish, not rehabilitate.

Also damning for the US -- which I alluded to above -- is that a very small percentage of crimes are adjudicated using the constitutionally prescribed method involving a jury trial. 95% of all convictions today come from pleas, not trials. That's exacerbated by the fact that many, many jurisdictions have passed legislation around mandatory minimums, which incentivizes those accused to plea down even when innocent.

Additionally, there's basically no accountability built into the system for the police or prosecutors, two key cogs in enforcing laws. There should be accountabilty and oversight in place for anybody wielding that much power, and by and large there's not.

I could go on. I don't think your Churchill quote applies particularly well here. Nor does any sense of American exceptionalism.


This a very detailed post.

But,unless I missed it,I can't seem to find anywhere where you say what other country's justice system the US should be striving to emulate ?




Just want to make sure I understand. Are you saying the “master questioner”, who is so idolized by a poster or two on this board, was just “exposed”?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/3/2021 11:27:24 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:


This a very detailed post.

But,unless I missed it,I can't seem to find anywhere where you say what other country's justice system the US should be striving to emulate ?




I think Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia have pretty good things going, justice system-wise.

I thought the point was clear that the US falls short of several of the countries -- listed in the link I shared -- who rank well ahead of the US. You know, based on the criteria I shared, and then linked to for further detail.



Last Edited: 12/3/2021 11:31:55 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 10:26:56 AM 
So here's an update. The cease and desist order has bee lifted. Where I have a problem with this whole thing is that without a report of what supposedly happened (names redacted of course) and what was discovered, the general public is left to speculate and the reputation of the organization, its members and leadership is soiled.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 10:38:54 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


This a very detailed post.

But,unless I missed it,I can't seem to find anywhere where you say what other country's justice system the US should be striving to emulate ?




I think Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia have pretty good things going, justice system-wise.

I thought the point was clear that the US falls short of several of the countries -- listed in the link I shared -- who rank well ahead of the US. You know, based on the criteria I shared, and then linked to for further detail.





But he was asking you to pick a specific country that you personally, based on whatever criteria you choose, think we should emulate and that has a better justice system than ours. Since the agency list you seem to like has several ranked above us that choice should be easy for you.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 10:58:33 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:


But he was asking you to pick a specific country that you personally, based on whatever criteria you choose, think we should emulate and that has a better justice system than ours. Since the agency list you seem to like has several ranked above us that choice should be easy for you.


He actually asked a question and then provided his own answer in the form of the Winston Churchill quote. So I addressed the answer he provided, and explained why it was, you know, dumb. And in the process provided a ranking that included criteria and thought. I didn't realize it was supposed to be a one word answer. Sorry about that!

But yeah, it seems like you ask are really excited to put your octogenarian heads together and see if they add up to anything worthwhile, so feel free to knock yourselves out making the case why the Justice Project's rankings are wrong and America is the best at everything all the time no matter what.

Denmark ranked first this year. That seems worth emulating. Excited to watch you all arbitrarily die on this particular hill.

Last Edited: 12/4/2021 11:00:07 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 12:41:51 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


This a very detailed post.

But,unless I missed it,I can't seem to find anywhere where you say what other country's justice system the US should be striving to emulate ?




I think Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia have pretty good things going, justice system-wise.





Unless of course, you are a female or homosexual.


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 1:50:20 PM 
The Optimist wrote:


Unless of course, you are a female or homosexual.



Yeah, I was hoping the sarcasm would come through there.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 3:12:24 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . .and America is the best at everything all the time no matter what.


Who said that?



"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 4:34:06 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . .and America is the best at everything all the time no matter what.


Who said that?




Oh man, how do I explain this without confusing you.

Sometimes you're going to run into people in the world who use hyperbole to make a point. I know it's hard to understand, and that reading is hard enough when you don't have to parse words for meaning that might exist beyond the literal interpretation of the words themselves, but it does come to from time to time. This is also true with metaphors, idioms and the like. You'll run into those. For instance, earlier in the thread, rpbobcat said that if the investigation of the Singing Boys doesn't turn up anything, "heads must roll". He doesn't been literally. It's an expression, used for effect. Similarly, there were no actual kangaroos involved in investigating the Marching 110. Kangaroo Court is just an excursion. Hope that helps clear things up for you.

I can answer questions all day long, man.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/4/2021 10:38:07 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . .and America is the best at everything all the time no matter what.


Who said that?




Oh man, how do I explain this without confusing you.

Sometimes you're going to run into people in the world who use hyperbole to make a point. I know it's hard to understand, and that reading is hard enough when you don't have to parse words for meaning that might exist beyond the literal interpretation of the words themselves, but it does come to from time to time. This is also true with metaphors, idioms and the like. You'll run into those. For instance, earlier in the thread, rpbobcat said that if the investigation of the Singing Boys doesn't turn up anything, "heads must roll". He doesn't been literally. It's an expression, used for effect. Similarly, there were no actual kangaroos involved in investigating the Marching 110. Kangaroo Court is just an excursion. Hope that helps clear things up for you.

I can answer questions all day long, man.


All I can say is that when questioned your fall back position is to double down on arrogance.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/5/2021 5:49:00 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:


Unless of course, you are a female or homosexual.



Yeah, I was hoping the sarcasm would come through there.


Cease and desist


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/5/2021 1:07:20 PM 
OhioCatFan/ wrote:


All I can say is that when questioned your fall back position is to double down on arrogance.


When you ask real questions, engage on substance, and show any interest in an actual discussion, I'll happily drop the condescension. You and I have had plenty of discussions that illustrate that.

But that's not what's happening here, as you're well aware. You're not asking these questions in good faith, and you're not engaging in the substance of the points I've made. So I'll drop the condescension when you act in a way that doesn't warrant the disdain.
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Cellis033
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/5/2021 10:24:00 PM 
Just a thing I have heard through being a student about the SM - I know they threw wild parties so I wouldn't be surprised if it's hazing or alcohol related.


Chase
OU Engineering Technology and Management '23
Bringing the noise!

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/6/2021 6:55:22 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
So here's an update. The cease and desist order has bee lifted. Where I have a problem with this whole thing is that without a report of what supposedly happened (names redacted of course) and what was discovered, the general public is left to speculate and the reputation of the organization, its members and leadership is soiled.


Alan, did O.U. issue a press release or something ?
Even though its Finals Week, I would have expected something from The Post.

I agree with you 100% about O.U.'s handling of the situation.

O.U. issues a Cease and Desist Order, shutting an organization down, then
just lifts it, with no explanation.
This leaves the whole issue open to speculation.




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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another group disbanded
   Posted: 12/6/2021 11:20:57 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
So here's an update. The cease and desist order has bee lifted. Where I have a problem with this whole thing is that without a report of what supposedly happened (names redacted of course) and what was discovered, the general public is left to speculate and the reputation of the organization, its members and leadership is soiled.


Alan, did O.U. issue a press release or something ?
Even though its Finals Week, I would have expected something from The Post.

I agree with you 100% about O.U.'s handling of the situation.

O.U. issues a Cease and Desist Order, shutting an organization down, then
just lifts it, with no explanation.
This leaves the whole issue open to speculation.






+1 and +1
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