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Topic: In defense of Saul Phillips

Topic: In defense of Saul Phillips

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 10:21:56 AM

Some on this board have been questioning Saul's coaching ability based on the current swoon the basketball ball Bobcats are in. I realize that things look like a total mess right now, and like the rest of you I'm frustrated and upset that the season has been such a downer. However, I don't really think the problem is one of coaching ability. I think it may be a poor mesh between the coach and the players that he inherited. I had an interesting conversation with Brandon Hunter at a recent home game, and I thought his take on Saul was quite interesting. He told me that he thought Saul was going to be an excellent coach for OHIO and that the program would get much better under his leadership. He then called Saul a "player's coach." This was coming from one of our all-time great players and one who has a basketball IQ many, many times greater than mine. At this point, I'm just going to consider this the proverbial rebuilding season and look for incremental improvement as the season progress. Hopefully, this improvement will be seen in the team, if not at least in the individual players, particularly the newcomers.

When Saul came here he indicated on numerous occasions that he was here for the long-haul. I think he's making decisions now not based so much on winning the next game but on building a foundation for the future. I'm not saying that he's not trying to win every game and is not coaching to the top of his ability in terms of game-day situations. It just appears to me that offense and defense he is trying to run are geared for the future. I also get the impression from some of his post-game comments that the team is often not executing in games what they are learning in practice. There appear to be too many "individualists" on this team who are having trouble getting the whole team concept.

I see a rough parallel here with football. Frank put in a new defensive scheme last fall. It will probably pay dividends down the road, but may have cost us a game or two this year because of lack of execution during the learning phase. I predict next year will be a banner year in both hoops and the oblong-ball sport.

One other nugget from my conversation with Hunter: he seemed to imply that he was getting reconnected with the program -- and was planning on attending additional games this year -- in part because of the way Saul had reached out to him.

Go OHIO!

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 10:26:26 AM

Saw Brandon at both the UNCW and Toledo games.

Keep in mind Saul is still a young coach, probably still learning. He's probably facing serious adversity for the first time as well. I expect this lesson will also pay dividends in the future.

ou79
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 10:51:06 AM

What?!?!? People are upset with Saul? Hey, he is still in the 1st year of his tenure, not year 10 like another of OUr programs where that staff apparently gets a pass.

OUVan
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 11:44:57 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Some on this board have been questioning Saul's coaching ability based on the current swoon the basketball ball Bobcats are in.

I don't question his ability although I do wonder about some of his decisions in light of the swoon. When we had our entire front line in foul trouble against Toledo I wondered why not give some of the bench guys minutes? When you have players who keep making the same mistakes over and over and over why keep going to them? I'm not at practices and I'm not in the locker room so I don't have the best insight into his decisions but I do wonder at times. But I am still on the Saul bandwagon and am excited about next year and beyond.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 11:46:57 AM

ou79 wrote:

What?!?!? People are upset with Saul? Hey, he is still in the 1st year of his tenure, not year 10 like another of OUr programs where that staff apparently gets a pass.

Thanks for that keen insight, Monroe.

perimeterpost
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 1:49:42 PM

You can be a fan of Saul's, believe he is a good coach, believe he will do well in the long run at Ohio, and still criticize him for this season's results.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.

OU_Country
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 2:04:07 PM

OUVan wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Some on this board have been questioning Saul's coaching ability based on the current swoon the basketball ball Bobcats are in.

After a response borna gave to me regarding my "why not play zone" and other thoughts in another thread, it kind of made me want to go see practice. It might put a whole lot of this into perspective. Agreed that this is the time to stay on the wagon, no question. Fifteen games, and just a couple of his own guys on the roster isn't nearly enough of a sample size to evaluate a coach and his staff.

BobcatSports
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 4:50:24 PM

Don't think it's a Saul problem, thinks it's more a lack of talent problem. Even considering "his" guys(the eligible ones) they are essentially undrafted free agents. By the time Saul got the hire the Draft was well over and the free agent pool was pretty well picked over. That's not a slam of either Ryan or Mike, cause I think Ryan will be special and Laster has shown spurts as well. They both have been forced into the fray a little earlier than Saul would probably have liked.

I think Saul cautioned early on that this year would be challenging while still trying to deal with the euphoria of his hiring and his upbeat nature. He also repeatedly said he's here for the long haul. I think one has to give him a fair chance to build the foundation back under this thing. It's probably going to take a couple of years not weeks.

colobobcat66
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 5:52:29 PM

ou79 wrote:

What?!?!? People are upset with Saul? Hey, he is still in the 1st year of his tenure, not year 10 like another of OUr programs where that staff apparently gets a pass.

And how many games has the football staff won versus their losses. Yes, I'll give them a pass.

bornacatfan
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/19/2015 9:20:47 PM

OU_Country wrote:

Glad to see here and in the other thread that you read. I spend time pondering and researching before responding so that makes me happy that the OP takes the time to read and ponder equally. Saw in the other thread that you enjoyed the zone video.

Groce was really good about letting guys in to watch practice. I do not know Saul's take on that but I will ask tomorrow night if I get a chance. I think most coaches I follow closely have an open door practice to boosters and University folk that show interest. Hope I can get you an answer and a contact.

On the subject of Saul. I do not think he needs as much defense as *WE* need assurance. I am happy in the direction we are going. Thought of this board when I read this on another board recently. I liked it enough to

[i]I cant for the life of me understand why so many fans have difficulty believing in the staff. If you were at the **** game, it was full of everything thing you want in a fan experience (except a win of course) but that said, I am really really excited about my son playing for this staff. ***** Basketball is in a good place, yeah it would be great to be undefeated right now......wait for it, wait for it!!!!!! The game last night was a good one!! We just lost.....no biggie! The arrow is pointing in the right direction!!!! [i]

while I do not think a fan attending a game in the Convo can feel the same vibe presently I think I feel the same way about OHIO direction as this parent of a future commit does about ***

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Ohio69
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/20/2015 9:25:16 AM

I expected a .500 team this year. Winless in the MAC would be a bigger surprise if I didn't watch the games. We really needed those JUCO guys to come. Nehemias Morillo (9 pts, 5.7 rbs per game for South Florida) and Wiggington (8 pts and 4 rbds for Buffalo) are certainly more ready than Taylor and Laster. And likely a bit quicker. And, who knows, Crute could've been the dead eye 3 point shooter we just don't have.

At this point, I'm just going to root for the team. Especially Ndour, who deserves way better. His OHIO experience isn't ending up that good at all. I hope he has some monster games in the Convo and gets a lot of love. (At least Stevie Taylor had the Sweet 16.)

I don't expect miracles next year either. Simmons and Kaminsky sound great. But, we need a lot more, especially with Ndour departing. Likely at least 2 years before we have a deep, talented team again.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

FearLeon
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/20/2015 10:08:11 AM

Ohio69 wrote:

+1 Spot on. I think we are at least 2 years away as well.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

OU_Country
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/20/2015 10:42:30 AM

Ohio69 wrote:

It's been debated on here again and again regarding the "absence" of Morillo and Wiggington. I'll take 4 years of Ryan Taylor over 2 years of those guys, particularly Wigginton. Laster may or may not be a different story, but so far, I like what he's doing. I would have enjoyed seeing Crute here, but it seems he wasn't coming regardless of who the coach was.

Expecting miracles next year isn't what anyone should expect. From the little that I'm seeing & hearing, I do expect that Simmons will be much better than Bean, and at least somewhat better than Stevie. The guys that will really be crucial to next year will be Dartis & Block, and how they contribute in year one. I think Dartis is going to be a heck of a get for Ohio in the long run. Ryan Taylor, Simmons, Kaminski, Campbell, Laster and Setty are known commodities that will have an extra year in the system.

My curiosity is to see what Doug Taylor, Dozier, Wadley, and Harley are able to give next season. Bottom line, for next year and the future beyond that, we'll be fine because we'll have 8 guys on the roster that are recruited by this staff and not prior staffs. That alone will make a difference.

100%Cat
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/20/2015 2:54:37 PM

I think I was among the guilty in underestimating what this team lost to graduation last spring. Kellogg, Smith, Wilkins, and Johnson were smart, veteran, high character guys we could lean on to play smart and hit the big shots the team needed. I mistakenly assumed that Stevie, Bean, and N'Dour would naturally fill those roles, and I don't feel like all of them have done that. I hate to give up on this team, and I won't stop going to games, but this is looking like a lost season. Hopefully they can get the ship righted, but right now, it sounds like the fat lady is warming up the vocal chords.

davepi2
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 6:58:26 AM

100%Cat wrote:

I think if not Wagner then certainly Dandy Don has been warmed up for at least a couple games now.

OUVan
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 8:45:33 AM

OU_Country wrote:

I think Dartis is going to be a heck of a get for Ohio in the long run.

For those of you haven't wandered over to the recruiting board lately, Dartis just went 20 for 21 from the line and scored 36 against the #10 team in the state of Ohio. Think about that. Our starting PG has been to the line 26 times all season. I think you'll see our basketball IQ skyrocket over the next couple of seasons as Saul brings in his type of player.

OUBobcat13
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 9:01:15 AM

Mark Turgeon was 9-19 in his first season at Wichita State.

Gregg Marshall was 11-20 in his first season at Wichita State.

OhioCatFan
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 1:08:19 PM

Jim Snyder was 6-14 his first year at OHIO.

Andrew Ruck
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 1:27:43 PM

I'm not worried about Saul, but the obvious response to anyone pointing out weak first seasons for excellent coaches is their predecessor was fired for poor performance. In Saul's case, the predecessor was hired away by a larger program, a testament to the condition of the program in which Saul took over.

I'd be curious if we could find examples of such a significant decline in the 1st year after a coach is poached. O'Shea to Groce I suppose is one example, though it doesn't feel like it since he went to Bryant.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

Jeff McKinney
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 1:49:06 PM

Andrew, IMO you're overestimating the condition of the program when JC left. The program was dependent on all the new recruits coming in, which doesn't usually happen. Saul came in late in the game as far as making up for the recruiting losses. The program was not left with the cupboard full for Saul by any means.

While there are flaws in drawing direct comparisons, just for fun here are other first year coaching records:

Dean Smith, UNC 8-9
Coach K, Army 11-14, Duke second season 10-17, third season 11-17
Rick Majerus, Ball State 14-14
John Groce, Ohio 15-17
Lefty Driesell, Davidson 9-14, Maryland 13-13

OUVan
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 2:01:05 PM

Andrew Ruck wrote:

Marshall followed Turgeon who had just been hired by Texas A&M. I think a good example is that of Billy Hahn following Danny Nee. That team returned some talent from a good team the year before but lost Paul Baron and Robert Tatum. Baron and Tatum took a lot of leadership with them (and ball movement).

Edit: Not trying to say that Saul is Billy Hahn just that both teams lost a lot of their leadership. Also included Roger Smith as being lost from that team but he returned the next year.

Last Edited: 1/21/2015 2:04:54 PM by OUVan

SBH
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 3:44:56 PM

Billy Hahn also lost Dave Jamerson that first year due to an ACL during a summer tour.

perimeterpost
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 4:36:36 PM

its not unreasonable to expect a program that has averaged 26-10 for the last 3 seasons to perform better than 5-10, even with a new coach.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.

Andrew Ruck
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 5:00:34 PM

I think my message was misunderstood. My point was the long list of weak first seasons of coaches would be expected, because generally coaches are taking over programs that were bad enough to fire the existing coach. I won't debate the issues of the roster that JC left us, and the quality of seniors we lost the past 2 seasons...Just saying it is not the same situation as most of those first years.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

JSF
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RE: In defense of Saul Phillips

Posted: 1/21/2015 6:26:30 PM

perimeterpost wrote:

its not unreasonable to expect a program that has averaged 26-10 for the last 3 seasons to perform better than 5-10, even with a new coach.

In a vacuum, perhaps not. But we're not in one.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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