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Topic: TOS to UCLA

Topic: TOS to UCLA

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Hawaiian Bobcat
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Member Since: 1/31/2005
Location: Wailuku, HI
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TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 3:19:44 AM

Actually could have been Groce if he decided to stay in Athens and had similar post season success as last year. I know I don't post very often on the board but I am almost a daily reader. I guess I am nervous that the grammar police will destroy my posts for poor structure. Since I just mentioned Coach Groce I think I will weigh in on the whole was Christian a good hire/did we have a good season argument.

On a side note I will refer to the Ohio Bobcats as we because I am alumni and these student athletes represent a University community in which I am a member. I think only in school athletics is the only time the word "we" can be used when discussing a team and only if the person using the word "we" was actually a student/graduate of the school they were referring too. Without the students there wouldn't be a basketball team.

Anyways the definition of success is in the eyes of the beholder obviously. In the historical context of Ohio Basketball we did have a successful season. A record of 14-2 in conference play is remarkable and something our community should hold with pride. I know some of my fellow attackers will not feel the banner in the Convo will bring too many fond memories but in 18 years an in coming freshman will look up and say "Wow we had a hell of a run from 2009-2013."

As for the people who view the season as disappointing, I can see their argument as well. We all claim we want to be the next Butler or Gonzaga. This season was a disappointment in that view. Let's look at Gonzaga first. Dan Monson took a team nobody heard of all the way to the elite 8 and I believe a point or two away from the final 4. It was an impressive performance but what really put Gonzaga on the map was the trip to the Sweet 16 the NEXT year. They were not a flash in the pan, they were a good program. The basketball team had the name recognition to start landing recruits that were superior to everyone else in the WCC and built a dynasty. Eventually Monson left for Minnesota and as history tells us now Gonzaga made the correct hire in Mark Few. So in terms of getting to the "next level" this season, I believe we squandered an opportunity. It is the same scenario with Butler. Until the Bulldogs made consecutive national championship games, they were a team known for losing to Florida on a buzzer beater. Now they are heading to the new Big East.

In my humble opinion the key to getting to the next level is making consecutive 2nd weekend runs in the tournament. If not you become a name recognized by good college basketball fans like a Valpo, Bucknell, or Tennessee Chattanooga or the answer to a trivia question.

I think Christian is a good hire for staying in the upper third of the MAC. We will continue to be in the top 4 seeds in Cleveland and always considered a good MAC team. However I believe we missed a chance for being a more national player by not playing to our potential this March. We are at least two deep tournament runs away.

Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 9:54:26 AM

Totally solid post. Keep on; don't worry about the grammar police. Many of the 'errors' which they pick on are inadvertent. (Stuff like mixing up 'their' and 'they're.') Appreciate the helpful ones and ignore the snide as they don't get it.

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OhioStunter
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 10:14:11 AM

Good post. Awesome avatar, bro!

HeHateMiami
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 10:28:00 AM

hawaiian bobcat wrote:

It was an impressive performance but what really put Gonzaga on the map was the trip to the Sweet 16 the NEXT year. They were not a flash in the pan, they were a good program. The basketball team had the name recognition to start landing recruits that were superior to everyone else in the WCC and built a dynasty. Eventually Monson left for Minnesota and as history tells us now Gonzaga made the correct hire in Mark Few. So in terms of getting to the "next level" this season, I believe we squandered an opportunity. It is the same scenario with Butler. Until the Bulldogs made consecutive national championship games, they were a team known for losing to Florida on a buzzer beater. Now they are heading to the new Big East.

In my humble opinion the key to getting to the next level is making consecutive 2nd weekend runs in the tournament. If not you become a name recognized by good college basketball fans like a Valpo, Bucknell, or Tennessee Chattanooga or the answer to a trivia question.

You're not wrong, but it comes down to money. The money you have to recruit, to schedule games, to update facilities. All of that matters. Let's take a look at how we rate vs. some of the top recent mid-major (moving to high major) programs. This is money spent on Men's Basketball in 2011.

Gonzaga - $5.3MM
VCU - $3.2MM
Butler - $3.5MM
Xavier - $1.6MM
OHIO - $2.1MM

We're certainly spending the most money on basketball in the MAC but other than Xavier (who I was surprised is spending so little, probably why they lose a coach seemingly every 3 years) we're getting far outspent by programs who many on this board hold up as a measuring stick. Being stuck in a conference with schools who aren't making as much of a commitment to athletics like Buffalo, Eastern, Ball State, and BG who are all spending under $1.5MM is also pretty rough.

The other major difference between us and the list above is that we're the only team paying to support DI football along with our basketball team. We've made the choice to do both and whether that's the right choice is a completely different thread, but that decision really puts a glass ceiling on where basketball can grow to.

Last Edited: 3/25/2013 10:28:52 AM by HeHateMiami

Mike Johnson
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 11:11:44 AM

hawaiian bobcat wrote:

Although I've nothing against this site's "grammar police" and in fact find amusing some of their grammatically correct posts, I've no intention of joining them. And I hope fervently that no BA "lurker" lets fear of grammar police "arrests" dissuade them from joining active BA'ers.

BTW, today I no doubt would flunk a grammar test. In my own writing, I frequently flout grammar rules. Examples:
* I sometimes split infinitives.
* I frequently use incomplete sentences.
* I occasionally end a sentence with a prepositon.

All such infractions are done with purpose.

Which reminds me. Back in the 70s, I spent a few years as a senior editor at a national business magazine. The late Joe Hudson was our chief copy editor and he was darned good at his job. But he and I had several run-ins over my occasionally letting grammar infractions reach his desk. Finally one day I asked Joe if he could bring himself to agree to the following: "If such an error makes reading easier for the reader, could he accept it?"

There followed a pregnant silence during which Joe pondered the question. Then he replied, "Yes, I could accept that."

During all the decades since, whenever writing anything, I've kept that in mind: If grammatical errors make reading easier for the reader, rules be damned. Which i think is a pretty good rule.

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OhioStunter
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 11:53:55 AM

Mike Johnson wrote:

hawaiian bobcat wrote:

You might even say that's an acception to the rule.

Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 12:05:22 PM

We live in Ohio. Ending sentences in unnecessary prepositions is encouraged. It is our gift to the world.

Last Edited: 3/25/2013 12:11:38 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)

giacomo
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 12:23:41 PM

Money is the key. Butler paid Brad Stevens and VCU paid Shaka Smart. Now they are in position to elevate their revenue by joining bigger conferences. We have football and that surely limits what we can do and alters our strategy.

I met Andy Geiger at a Youngstown State- Wisconsin Milwaukee game recently. He was an interm AD until recently at Milwaukee. We were talking about this kind of thing and he was looking around at the attendance at the game, which was paltry, and he shook his head and said that this is common at most Horizon league games, as it is at most MAC games(ours and Kent and Akron being the exception). It's not any better at conferences below ours. He said if you extend yourself too much with your budget trying to get to the next level, it's not economically sustainable. I think we are in that position.

Some may say we can break away and build something different, especially in basketball, because we can draw. Football has to have a home and that's the big reason we stay in the MAC and continue to do what we do, in my opinion.

emoney
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 1:20:34 PM

Good post giacomo.

Imagine how much Ohio could spend if they had no football team?

Football is a very expensive sport and one of those sports that constitutes a lot of "all or nothing" that a university does with their sporting programs. With it, all things revolve around it, and without it, money and revenue is completely different.

100%Cat
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 1:49:43 PM

Minnesota job is now available, too. Tubby got the axe today. Poor choice of words for a Minnesota basketball coach, it's the football coach that can get the axe at Minnesota. Tubby got fired, that works better.

TOS to the Golden Gophers?

JSF
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 2:29:54 PM

Mike Johnson wrote:

* I occasionally end a sentence with a prepositon.

This is officially acceptable now.

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Mike Johnson
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 3:13:47 PM

JSF wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

* I occasionally end a sentence with a prepositon.

This is officially acceptable now.

Whew what a relief!

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Casper71
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 3:20:17 PM

This whole "you can't support two major sports" is laughable to me. Uh, Ohio St, Mich, Texas...and on and on.

The difference is: MONEY. Then again, if we bought in 30k people for each and every football game and 10k for each and every basketball game, we'd probably generate sufficient resources to pay what is needed.

The question is: Will we ever do that with MAC schedules? I think, NO. So, what is the value of a MAC membership? Oh, it keeps expenses (as well as revenues) down.

Seems like this is a dog chasing his tail. We need to associate with institutions that want to do what is necessary to get 30k to football and 10k to basketball games. Anybody got a name for ONE conference that does that for BOTH sports and makes sense for us to join? I'll be honest, I don't have any right now. Does that mean it is time for 10 institutions with the same problem getting together and making something happen? I think, YES. Problem is, anybody know of 10 institutions thinking that way that want to get together with us? I'll admit it, not me (unless you canvas the MAC and see if anyone is really that committed, there may be a handful and that is a start).

OhioStunter
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 4:42:36 PM

Casper71 wrote:

I think Ohio has successfully supported two major sports. Over the past five years, there are only 29 schools that have a better combined winning percentage*. I think the real question permeating these boards recently is what is the definition of success?

*edited to include: by the way, USC, Duke, Michigan, Baylor, Kansas, Nebraska, Kentucky, UCLA, UConn, Texas A&M, Northwestern, Iowa, NC State...all rank below us on that list.

Last Edited: 3/25/2013 4:46:09 PM by OhioStunter

HeHateMiami
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/25/2013 5:12:41 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

Exactly. In some ways I'd say this basketball season was successful (though disappointing in several facets). There are others who say that this season was a massive failure and JC should have never been hired. That's what I was getting at with the revenue discussion.

Hawaiian Bobcat
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/26/2013 2:20:47 AM

I understand money is a huge issue but success equals money. Ohio Athletics is starting to get more boosters. Ohio alums hopefully are supporting our teams first instead of other universities. Our brand is starting to get recognized on a national level. Quick story, I was having a couple of beers at the Sly Mongoose in Lahaina, Hawaii. Some how a conversation turned to where I was from as my local pigin is terrible. I said Ohio and I mentioned I went to Ohio University. One of them replied, "The one's with the really cool green uniforms?" I was shocked because I usually get this response, "Oh the Poison Nuts." The accomplishments of our student athletes are being recognized nationally. I guess being patient is a real SOB.

Butler, VCU, and Gonzaga didn't start paying their coaches the big bucks until either after a decade long run of success or improbable runs to the Final 4. Money doesn't cure all the problems the right coach has to be discovered. Luck does play a major role. Everything has to work perfectly for the jump into the next level to work. Hypothetically speaking had Groce stayed and we made another run to the Sweet 16, he would have been paid the figures previously mentioned.

Things could be much worse for Bobcat Nation. We are not Miami and We are not Akron.

HeHateMiami
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/26/2013 10:51:29 AM

hawaiian bobcat wrote:

Hypothetically speaking had Groce stayed and we made another run to the Sweet 16, he would have been paid the figures previously mentioned.

Or he would have missed the NCAA's just like this year and been stuck finding a way to rebuild a program losing a once in a generation player like DJ Cooper (not to mention other solid starters).

OhioCatFan
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/26/2013 11:26:25 AM

JSF wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

* I occasionally end a sentence with a prepositon.

This is officially acceptable now.

As Winston Churchill once said, "This is something up with which I will not put." And, to polish up my grammar police credentials, for the record, HB, you are not an alumni unless you are a Siamese twin. You are an alumnus, assuming you are male. If a female, you are an alumna. This is not really a big deal to most on this board, but it is one of my pet peeves. Please keep posting!

Last Edited: 3/26/2013 11:31:01 AM by OhioCatFan

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redrustler
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/26/2013 12:25:57 PM

Good post, and one I agree with. This season was a good season. Was it better than last year? If given the choice, who here would take a better MAC record rather than two NCAA tournament wins and a sweet sixteen appearance? Anyone? Some other points raised. (1) I think it is wrong to characterize the naysayers as claiming this was a bad year. I think our arguments are characterized in such a way in order to create a strawman. We are merely arguing that last year was a better year than this year in the most important metric, and, as the original poster pointed out, an opportunity was lost this year. I was at dinner this weekend, and a tablemate asked me how Ohio did in the post-seasons tournaments, knowing I went there, wear the clothing, and was with me when I cheered loudly at our local sports bar when Ohio beat Michigan and South Florida last year, and came within a cat's whisker of bearing North Carolian. I told him. His next question was "How many players did they lose from last year?" "Um. None. They lost their coach."

(2) How would JG have done this year at O.U.? Who knows, but we do know how he did at Illinois, which was pitiful last year, with the same players JG inherited, and which won a game in a tournament in which they were never supposed to play. We do know he made the NCAA tournament twice with this O.U. team, going 3-2. So, if past performance is any indication of future perforamance, I think the odds favor JG.

(3) I share your hopes for the program going forward. I really hope JC produces results more akin to JG than TOS. But, again, if we are considering past performance, JC inherited a good Kent program, and pretty much maintained the status quo. He inherited a lackluster TCU program, and again, pretty much maintained the status quo. He really did not elevate either program beyond what he inherited. His history at Kent was to do well during the season, and then not so much in the post season. Sort of like this year. This is why I thought JC was not a good hire. I simply thought his past performance was a known commodity, and, as I recall, when Hunter was fired many people here, as did the administration, wanted a coach who could consistently take the team to the NCAA tourney (the next level, I thought), and I did not think JC fit the suit, as it were. Ironically, many of those same folks seem perfectly happy with JC. I remember some of those same folks argue that they would rather have an unproven assistant who turns out to be a great coach, and get to the tournament at the risk of losing that coach to a bigger program after a few years. I recall them arguing that they would rather have one or two really good or great years over a number of good years of doing well in the MAC, and then not much else. I am not sure what has changed between the time of TOS's hire and now.

Last Edited: 3/26/2013 12:36:54 PM by redrustler

giacomo
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RE: TOS to UCLA

Posted: 3/26/2013 1:19:15 PM

Casper, you make a good point, but what has going to Conf USA done for Marshall? To me, those schools in those conferences want to get to BCS status and are jockeying around trying to get there, with no regard to the rest of the members and who they might leave behind. It really is musical chairs. The MAC, for all its faults, is stable. There is no reason we can't stay in the MAC and elevate our programs above the mean of the conference. We could choose to spend more money without leaving.

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