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Ohio Basketball

Topic: Xavier's troubles

Topic: Xavier's troubles

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OU_Country
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Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/23/2012 9:29:29 AM

As a fan of Cincinnati teams, I read the Enquirer often. Today Daugherty posed a good point in his column. It led me to wonder what Bobcat fans think about these issues, and whether or not we'd sacrifice having good citizens for being a great basketball or football program. Currently, I think we generally do have kids that are good citizens, but it's something to ponder.

Doc: "It’s not coincidence that Xavier’s rise to national hoop prominence has included a jump in its knucklehead factor. These aren’t merit-badge people you’re signing. If you want to run with the big dogs, expect big-dog problems."

news.cincinnati.com/article/20120822/COL03/308220063/Doc-Dez-Wells-Xavier-s-cost-doing-business

GoCats105
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/23/2012 1:22:49 PM

I read this article this morning and it's probably the most insightful thing I've seen written from the Enquirer about Xavier in a long time.

What I always find amazing, and to be honest quite humorous, is that delusional Xavier fans have absolutely no idea what the players are like off the court. They put these kids up on a pedestal, whereas if another kid does the same thing at a different school (namely Dayton or UC), they scoff at them and say "oh we'd never let a kid like that into Xavier." It may have been true 10 years, or maybe even 4-5 years ago, but not anymore. You wanna make that jump to the next level? These are the things you're gonna have to deal with every season.

I saw, heard and learned things while I was interning and finishing my grad degree at the school that would make most of their fans cringe.

Last Edited: 8/23/2012 1:23:58 PM by GoCats105

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/24/2012 12:40:38 PM

It seems that the assumption here is that there is a direct relationship between ability on the basketball court and the knucklehead factor.

Is that true???

There are some programs at all levels out there who seem to refute this. However, it's easier for the Dukes of the world to sign guys who have it all...good academics, basketball ability and character. As you move down the food chain, however, these "have it all" guys generally have all been recruited and so schools end up being tempted to shortchange character considerations in order to get guys who can compete.

Bobcatbob
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/24/2012 1:56:08 PM

The short answer to the question posed is: No.

No amount of basketball success is worth seeing Ohio players brawling on the court and then thumping their chests in the media room afterwards.

OUVan
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/24/2012 2:40:31 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

It seems that the assumption here is that there is a direct relationship between ability on the basketball court and the knucklehead factor.

Is that true???

There isn't much of a correllation (although one could argue that being treated as the chosen one might lead to knucklehead behavior) but the more talent a knucklehead has the more likely he is to end up on a good team.

GoCats105
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/24/2012 4:33:54 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

It seems that the assumption here is that there is a direct relationship between ability on the basketball court and the knucklehead factor.

Is that true???

When I was researching for my graduate thesis, I came across some articles and studies regarding this very topic. I dont remember if there was a direct correlation, but the argument could have been made. They took arrest records and NCAA violations into account with top recruits signing at certain schools.

It could be an interesting study done for a Doctoral student however.

OU_Country
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/27/2012 9:11:51 AM

Bobcatbob wrote:

The short answer to the question posed is: No.

No amount of basketball success is worth seeing Ohio players brawling on the court and then thumping their chests in the media room afterwards.

I wasn't just limiting my thoughts to on-court brawling or media exposure like Xavier got. (as a side note - blame the basketball staff for the kids even being in the post game conference that day) I just thought it was interesting because OUr program these past two years seemed to turn the corner to a high level with regards to having players who were good players, citizens, and students. At the beginning of John's tenure, we did have a few "knuckleheads" in my opinion. Personally, I've enjoyed it even that much more that the knucklehead factor has been very low during these last couple years while the play on the court has improved. On the other hand, it's not realistic to expect that a team full of 18-22 year olds isn't going to have a couple guys make some mistakes over time.

GoCats105
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 7:42:04 AM

Apparently some new things have come to light in Wells' favor and maybe Xavier pulled the trigger too quickly.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120828/SPT0102/308270038/Deters-No-charges-against-Wells

Word on the street is no evidence was ever found that he actually did commit the crime, it was more of a he said/she said thing and the Xavier Conduct board more or less weighed on the side of caution, rather than let the legal system play itself out.

I'm gonna try to do some more digging on this. There's got to me more behind this story than what people have seen or heard around town.

Ohio69
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 9:23:32 AM

It is a real shame how judiciary boards function.

Now this kid has to sit out a year? Good grief. Some day some athlete is just going to sue everyone over this dumb stuff.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

GoCats105
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 9:33:02 AM

Ohio69 wrote:

It is a real shame how judiciary boards function.

Now this kid has to sit out a year? Good grief. Some day some athlete is just going to sue everyone over this dumb stuff.

You're not far off from this situation. People are speculating that might be a possibility. His reputation, no matter how good it was before the incident, is even worse off now no matter if he did or didnt do it.

bornacatfan
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 9:52:20 AM

Really?

I can't imagine a school that would take the word of an accuser without giving credence to what may actually have happened and expeliing a player based on ....like...........sayyyyyyyy.........the accusations of 3 white girls and a black player brandishing a toy gun if in fact it was actually done the way it was told after 4 hours of deliberation.

Not like many jilted girls or women desiring attention or money in the history of mankind have made accusations that stretched the truth or were patently false.

I do not disagree that many of these players are not in the way of their own success and do not understand the implications of putting yourself in a situation where there is enough ambiguity to cause a problem....let alone withstanding the shadow of the athletes that are actually doing stupid/illegal/immoral and unethical things but to call out X seems to fly in the face of the glass house we have built.

Last Edited: 8/29/2012 9:52:54 AM by bornacatfan

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

GoCats105
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 10:41:27 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

I don't disagree with you at all, in fact I would argue that they were both right and wrong in this situation. Wells should have never put himself in the situation, but the people at Xavier could have done him some justice finding out all of the facts first.

Xavier likes its high and mighty reputation they've built as being the "good school", as opposed to the other school down Victory Parkway a couple of miles. I'm not saying that's how people should view them, nor do I, but they see themselves that way and will do anything to protect that image.

Of course people make false accusations all the time. That's why I mentioned earlier I'd like to get more juice behind this, because I have to imagine that there is something else lingering that would lead to the people at Xavier to not suspend him right away, but totally kick him out of school.

People on the radio and newspaper will see what's right in front of them and make an opinion of the matter, I'm wanting to know more facts and see what actually happened.

bornacatfan
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 10:49:36 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

People on the radio and newspaper will see what's right in front of them and make an opinion of the matter, I'm wanting to know more facts and see what actually happened.

I love it ......someone that actually takes the time to evaluate and not base an opinion on a quote or a sound bite. Ohio edjumication serves you well.

OU_Country
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 12:20:55 PM

GoCats105 wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

I agree with your point - there has to be something more to this expulsion than has been released so far. Otherwise, I can't understand why the decision was made prior to a legal proceeding. Suspension until more is known seems like it would have been a better course of action. As an anti-Xavier guy, I can't help but chuckle a little at how terribly they've handled this, as well as the post "brawl" issues. They've certainly put a couple black eyes on a previously good reputation.

HeHateMiami
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/29/2012 3:51:15 PM

OU_Country wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

[QUOTE=bornacatfan] but to call out X seems to fly in the face of the glass house we have built.

I don't know that I agree. A popular local radiohost (think your level-headed commonman fan type, not one of the screamers and shouters who sometimes host sports call-in programs) had the Hamilton County Prosecutor, Joe Deters, on his show the other day to talk about this, and the prosecutor absolutely took Xavier to task.

Deters had taken this case to the grand jury, who declined to charge Wells. Deters is now saying, based on the facts of the case that he agrees with the grand jury's decision not to charge Wells. Again, keep in mind he's a prosecutor, not a defense attorney. Here's a link to the radio host's site where he talks about the interview.

http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lancesBlog.html?article=103...

Some choice quotes from Deters...

--On X's decision to kick Wells out of school "The level of proof they (XU) had should never have gotten to point his reputation is ruined"

-- More on X's decision "What Xavier does is fundamentally unfair"

-- On the initial complaint "It wasn't even close to what was said happened"

GoCats105
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 8/30/2012 8:05:24 AM

HeHateMiami wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

[QUOTE=bornacatfan] but to call out X seems to fly in the face of the glass house we have built.

-- More on X's decision "What Xavier does is fundamentally unfair"

-- On the initial complaint "It wasn't even close to what was said happened"

Which is why I said they should have found out the facts first. They based their decision off of very questionable information and probably (I dont know this for sure) the fact that he's been in trouble before. They were being cautious and it came back to bite them in the ass. However, Wells should have never been in the situation to begin with, whatever the situation happened to be. Cunningham was on 700 WLW yesterday talking about this throughout the day and he was on Deters and McCallister's side obviously. He, bare in mind, is a Xavier graduate and fan.

It just makes me wonder: are people truly upset at Xavier for what they did to Dez Wells? Or are they just upset that their best player won't be on the roster next season? Something to think about...

Last Edited: 8/30/2012 8:06:11 AM by GoCats105

bornacatfan
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 9/4/2012 12:11:49 AM

more Bad apples to make a good team rhetoric

OUVan
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RE: Xavier's troubles

Posted: 9/4/2012 8:38:19 PM

Wells ends up at Maryland.

Not sure if he'll apply for a waiver to avoid sitting out.

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