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Topic: When to draw the line?

Topic: When to draw the line?

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Bobcat Love
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
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When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 1:55:54 PM

I'm not there yet, but we are coming very close to the point in negotiations where it may be time to walk away from the table. Always the strongest bargaining chip in these kinds of situations. Seeing as I'm not sure we're even at the table, this may not make much sense, but Groce is still under contract to us, and could be violating several clauses under the termination section of the agreement.

By no means am I saying to Fire Groce or Terminate his deal, but at some point - a reprimand may need to be issued to end this Illinois flirtation, as I think it's doing a bit of damage to our reputation as an athletic department.

While JG is very important to the University and should be compensated for the job he did these past few weeks in the MAC and NCAA Tournament - I think it's important to keep things in perspective when it comes to OU's leverage position:

- We have a complete roster coming back with the addition of some key pieces.
- We have a competent, strong Assistant Coach who is a graduate of the University who could steer us through a Coaching change.
- There are a LOT of good, solid, reputable candidates who would take this job for a lot less then the rumored $500k we want to heap on Groce.
- Fundraising efforts have been geared to facilities and scholarships, and that, more than personnel is deemed a priority for long term success.

Again, it's Day 4 of this saga, and I think at some point OU is doing itself a disservice by playing this game with Groce, the media, the students, the donors, the alumni, and the rest of the administration. We're not at that point yet, but I think we're closer then most of you think.

Here are the reasons for termination in the Groce contract:

- Serious personal or professional misconduct - Heck no.
- Intentional failure to perform material duties of the position or supervise subordinates - Not intentional. No.
- Insubordination in connection with material duties of the position - That would be up to Schaus.
- Prolonged absence from the University - Depends on the flight tracker situation and what Schaus thinks is prolonged.
- NCAA Violation - God I hope not.
- MAC Violation - Do we even have a rulebook in this grease fire of a league?
- University Violation - Union is one way. We're good.

Again, I'm not saying terminate Groce. Exactly the opposite. He deserves a nice extension and raise, but I don't think we should pander to him for days and weeks while this all plays out. Ohio is better than that and needs to have some dignity and respect for itself. I'm just trying to force a swift end to the situation so all parties can move on with their objectives.

LOVE

athena
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 1:56:55 PM

Ryan, we need thread merge capabilities.

Mike Coleman
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 1:58:35 PM

+1 athena. I thought this was about drawing the line on new threads about the coaching search.

bobcat695
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 2:12:59 PM

He has worked every single day for 6+ months and produced tremendous results. He is allowed to take a few days off, no matter what he is doing with it. Just because we are not privy to any communications between Groce and Rod or Jim doesn't mean there is none.

How many of us have been offered jobs that included "money too good to pass up"? Also, most people entertain those offers to at least see what the other guy is offering. It is very flattering to have someone begging you to come work for them. The major difference here is that it is incredibly public that he is interviewing.

I have interviewed people to join my firm and they did not want to meet at my office because they thought someone might see their car parked in the lot. Most of us have the luxury of privacy and anonymity, even if we are just kicking the tires.

I think Illinois will have a stricter timeline than Ohio does. They will either hire Groce quickly or move on to their umpteenth candidate that is next in line. Plus, if Boals is on our short list, don't we have to wait until Saturday or Monday to even interview him? You cannot push someone when you have no leverage.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 2:13:58 PM

Not letting our coaches negotiate with other schools is a really great way to make sure nobody wants to coach here.

This is a circus because Illinois and their board of directors has made it a circus. It in no way reflects poorly on Ohio University.

Bobcat Love
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 2:17:34 PM

Guys, I said clearly, it's up to Schaus to define things to Groce.

695, you've worked 6 months straight, doesn't mean you can just jet off for a few days without telling your Boss. (Ok, I know you're the boss, but you get my drift).

He is a direct report to Schaus, so if his actions are ok by Schaus, they are ok by the letter of the contract.

This goofy public announcement about cobbling shekels together to keep JG does make us look bad. Real bad.

If this whole circus keeps going, who knows what will happen next to embarrass the University further? Maybe one of these ridiculous Groce-a-thon ideas from the other threads.

I'm just saying, it needs to come to a head soon for everyone's sake.

Andrew Ruck
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 2:17:41 PM

Damnit Love, do you just not know where the Reply button is? Now we're never gonna hit the 100 page mark.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

colobobcat66
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 2:59:35 PM

Another post to just stir the pot. Who unleashed this guy? Just crazy.

cincybobcat99
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 3:05:25 PM

I know of $200,000 worth of reasons why we shouldn't terminate his contract. The buyout may be "small", but it will come in handy in looking for the next coach.

Capital Cat
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 3:12:10 PM

I don't think any of us know what's really going on in the athletic department. I do agree, this does need to end soon. Make a counter offer to Groce (if needed) and that's it. He takes it, GREAT, if not, at least we took a shot. In other years we would have just rolled over and went down with out a fight.

The Optimist
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 3:21:43 PM

It will be hilarious to watch the meltdown in Illinois if Groce walks... Their timetable right now has to be this week to hire a coach with the media firestorm that has developed.

I've seen crazier things happen.

JSF
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 3:37:25 PM

This is all assuming that John isn't doing his job because he's been in Champaign or on the phone with Mike Thomas constantly. I don't think these are correct assumptions.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

Casper71
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:14:58 PM

If his termination clause is really only $200k then I say the next time we negotiate for a coach the termination payout should be closer to $1mil. People leave Ohio to go to bigger places with lots more money. So, let them pay up. Ohio usually let's people finish a contract no matter how bad so the payout is rarely the University to the coach.

Ted Thompson
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:24:00 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Good luck trying to saddle an up-and-coming coach with a $1M buyout. Especially when you're paying him $250K.

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JSF
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:24:27 PM

Ask Kent State how a large buyout is working out.

BobcatSports
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:39:45 PM

Isn't it protocol for the inquiring/hiring entity (Illinois) to seek permission from the current employer (OHIO) prior to speaking with the sought after already employed (Groce)? Not sure what line there is for us to draw? I would assume that the OHIO power base,McDavis/Schaus, would be or have put together a package to entice Groce to stay. I have NO idea what that package is but I would assume it would be much less financially than what Illinois is offering, just based on the financial where-withall of both institutions.

That said IF Groce was granted permission to speak/pursue the Illinois opportunity, what choice do we really have but to offer Groce our best package and then wait to see what avenue he chooses to go down. Also could there be other suitors that have not been made public that are seeking Groce's services that may be entering into his thought process?

Groce knows what he has at OHIO. I'm not at all surprised that it would be taking him a few days to mull over what other opportunities have been laid at his doorstep and would rather he "sleep" on them for a few days in lieu of making a rash decision and jumping at the first opportunity, even if it is for crazy money.

I've never felt Groce came to OHIO looking for the first train out of Athens as O'Shea seemed to. Remember the "TOS to threads" have rivaled the "That's life on the road in the MAC" ones which were 'OL Tim's signature calling cards. TOS should have/could have had "Coach for Hire" tattooed on his forehead during his stint here.

I think Groce has been presented with an opportunity that he clearly just a recently as a few scant weeks ago, never dreamed would be placed before him at this stage of his career. I don't begrudge the guy one bit if he is taking his time and trying to weigh the situation/opportunity thru. That said I hope the OHIO braintrust has given Groce it's best package and then let's the cards fall as they may.

Casper71
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:45:07 PM

If Kent had a large buyout, they are/may be/ will be laughing all the way to the bank. Besides, the hiring school pprobably pays the payout and I am sure if Illinois wants Groce they would pay the $1mil. It's peanuts to them but quite a bit to us!

anorris
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:48:55 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Uhm. You know Kent State is locked in a legal battle with Geno Ford over their buyout clause, and are probably shelling out quite a lot in legal fees at the moment, yes?

Casper71
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 4:58:13 PM

So what? They get the money and they laugh all the way to the bank. I know the jury is still out. All I am saying is there are probably higher payouts than $200k out there. That's chump change in this day and age of intercollegiate athletics. Hell, Ohio could probably find $200k to buy out some D2 coach...

OUVan
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 5:04:12 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Or they don't get the money and no coach worth a damn will interview with them after they fire Senderoff in a year or two.

JSF
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 5:19:18 PM

Casper71 wrote:

So what? They get the money and they laugh all the way to the bank.

They're not going to get the money. And they'll have considerable legal fees.

Bobcat2005
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 5:32:53 PM

Maybe he is recruiting Illinois players.

Alan Swank
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 8:11:14 PM

bobcat695 wrote:

This pretty well sums it up. I'd add only one thing. When people interview they're either running from something or to something. In this case, it's clearly the latter. From a purely selfish stand point, I hope JG finds that Illinois is like a very lucrative sales territory that I turned down years ago - much bigger money but with a price to pay.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Mike Coleman
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 8:24:13 PM

I don't think you can underestimate the fact that Champaign-Urbana is about 100 minutes from Danville either.

OhioCatFan
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RE: When to draw the line?

Posted: 3/28/2012 8:42:12 PM

JSF wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

So what? They get the money and they laugh all the way to the bank.

They're not going to get the money. And they'll have considerable legal fees.

How do you know this, JSF? Can you give us the legal analysis that leads this conclusion?

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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