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Topic: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Topic: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

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Bobcat Love
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the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/27/2011 11:24:36 PM

Fact. I was at the Louisville game.

Fact. This is probably going to offend some people, but I don't care. I don't do moral victories like 90% of you. I'm guessing the Team and Staff have similar feelings to some of the stuff you will read below.

Fact. I thought it was disgraceful that we lost the game. There was absolutely no excuse. #7 in the nation be damned, we were BY FAR the better team. It wasn't close.

Fact. I told many people to take the Bobcats on the Money Line well in advance of the game. Ohio +16.5 was one of the rare freebies that Vegas will give you.

Fact. The refs were not a factor. Our skill level led to a lot of whistles. We got caught out of position upteen number of times. Plus you know you aren't going to get 50/50 calls going into the game. Just expect it and don't let the refs affect the outcome. Seeing all the complaining about the Refs on the board, that's not in our constitution.

Fact. The YUM! Center is the least imposing/intimidating arena of any "Blue Blood" NCAA Program I can imagine. Louisville is not a good ballclub with a hurt Siva, Marra, and Blackshear. That's not even a Top 25 ballclub. I'm sorry, it's just not. Pitino knows it and implied as much in the post game. Nothing in the pre-game about Pervis, DaJuan Wheat, Labradford Smith, Junior Bridgeman, Wes Unseld, etc etc. Just Pitino talking garbage. And NO MENTION of Karen Cunagin Syphers, which was unfortunate.

Fact. John Groce got flat out-coached by Rick Pitino. The Zone, then pulling off the zone late, was played perfectly. Meanwhile we have 6 guys coming out of a huddle. (I'm physically scratching my head right now). In fairness, this team is so much better organized then the TOS squads who looked like a Single A baseball team. We actually look like we belong in these games, however, we (and Groce specifically) still have a long way to go.

Fact. DJ Cooper (while I am still his biggest fan) is still taking god awful shots, and getting no flak from the bench. He's not commanding the offense as he has over the past 2 years, and just continues to pull bad shot after bad shot. I'll take the good with the bad, but someone has got to tell him we don't need him to score 20+ to win. In fact, it's probably 6+ with 8-10 assists and we'll be vicious. Why does nobody see this? The shooting % bears it out. Having Walt and Taylor on the roster should give Groce the freedom to eliminate some of the rope Cooper's had in years past. There were 5 or 6 times I would have yanked Cooper out, sat him a minute, and then re-inserted him. Just to send the damn message that these terrible 3's don't do anybody any good.

Fact. Jon Smith is in my doghouse. He brings VERY little to the table. On offense he is a liability. On defense he is neutrality at best. Look at that god awful stat sheet from the Louisville game. Worse, Groce decides to trade him and TJ for Offense/Defense during the last 2 minutes, and Yep, he gets beat bad for the last dagger 3 to lose it. The Louisville fans around us were breathing sighs of relief each time he checked in. Something has to improve here.

Fact. We have no idea how to hedge a screen. The refs could have called 9 fouls on us for contact during our hedges. Instead they called 2.

Fact. I've never seen a team be so fundamentally unsound about sticking a body on people when a shot goes up. My god we gave up the same number of Offensive Rebounds as we did Defensive. The kid from Senegal who just learned to play basketball had 16 rebounds. Jimmy Dolan outcoached Groce in the game from my standpoint. Baltic, Smith, and Keely were all guilty at times. Just standing around then trying to get the handle on the loose ball as they recovered.

Fact. Bright spots were Keely, Hall, and Goard. Keely was the only one not intimidated by the environment and who showed some toughness. Hall played great. Smooth and with confidence. Hit some big 3's. I would NEVER play Jon Smith over TJ Hall after that game. I'm not sure I'd play Smith over Kenny Belton, and he doesn't even play. If you watch Goard's first series, it boggles my mind why he never saw more minutes. Watch the tape. It doesn't lie. Goard would be working ahead of Jon Smith in practice YESTERDAY.

Fact. Baltic is a different guy away from the Convo. He looked like a deer in headlights at times. No clue what he would have done if he hadn't picked up the early 2 fouls, but he can't let himself become a non-issue like that.

Fact: I have no problem with the way Offutt and Taylor played. Walt didn't seem overly intimidated, and once Taylor got over a few Freshman hiccups, he was fine. Both are solid. See my point about yanking Cooper at times. Those guys give you that luxury, yet Groce continues to be stubborn about pulling Cooper. Walt and Stevie are both running circles around Nick Kellogg during games. If Nick is going to simply be a spot up shooter without any other, visible identity - we have a problem.

Fact. This is not nearly as harsh as I should be. I've eased up after letting things settle the past 48 hours. I had steam coming out of my ears on 71-N while I headed back to C-bus. This wasn't the 57 point thrashing to Kansas, and in some ways - it was worse. At some point, we have to stake our claim to what's ours, and make no mistake - the Louisville game was ours. Credit to Groce and the Staff, We are a MUCH MUCH MUCH deeper roster this year then in years past. That said, you have to capitalize on the resources at your disposal. We should have won that game. Without question. As a fan, I'm completely deflated.

Fact. You can play like that against Buffalo or NIU and recover. You cannot do it against a real basketball team with a real coach from a real conference.

Opinion. We lose to Marshall on Wed. They're twice the team that Louisville is (in the incarnation in which we saw them Saturday), and I saw nothing that leads me to believe we can get things fixed for a tough road test. However, if we want to toughen up, grab rebounds, get physical, and take high % shots - I'll happily be proved wrong.

Last Edited: 11/27/2011 11:25:38 PM by Bobcat Love

Chicken George
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/27/2011 11:47:23 PM

Few points I agree with include:

*Agreed--Jon Smith has shown me nothing as well. Problem is, I'm not sure the better option is ready. Goard will be a better option, but he appears at least a season away. In relation to toughness, TJ is soft as well. He plays with as little, or less, muscle than Jon Smith. Belton is a mystery right now. But I agree, Where's the Beef?

*Agreed--while I really like Kellog, he's a 90% a spot up shooter. Offutt and Stevie multi-dimensional.

*Agreed--Baltic can be dynamic verus MAC + lower quality teams. Disappears in these big games.

*Agreed--DJ does not create enough offense for others. Love to see him drive and distribute a ton more than what he does.

*Agreed--hearing Louisville, Big East, Pitino and Big East, #7 ranking, had me thinking no way. In hindsight, my biased opinion is that we probably were the better team. We simply were not used to this stage, the bright lights/big stage and the experience at how to close out these types of games.

bobcat695
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/27/2011 11:56:28 PM

So, should I cancel my trip to Huntington Wednesday night?

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

perimeterpost
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 12:01:46 AM

Fact. Stating an opinion emphatically and prefacing it with the word fact makes it a fact. Fact.
Fact. I'm super awesome and chicks dig me. Fact.
Fact. Emperical diatribes stating opinions as facts are always more convincing when said in the 3rd person. Fact
Fact. I too wished we had won but will be cheering on the Bobcats as they hand Marshall their first loss of the season. The Bobcats will win. Fact.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.

oubobcatjohn
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 12:05:34 AM

This game was a lot like last year where we just couldn't finish off a team in the last two minutes. Crowd at the end had a lot to do with it. Looked like an NBA game where the home crowd sits on their butts until the final two minutes and the home teams steps ups as the crowd energizes a struggling home team. This team needs to handle those situations better as the games at Kent St, Akron, BGSU, Miami and Buffalo will have crowds making noise at the end. We gotta get those rebounds period. Can't give up 20 offensive rebounds. That killed us last year. It gotta be a team effort on the boards with our size. Offutt and Cooper's rebounding from guards spots should help, but the bigs gonna have to dominate the boards.

Last Edited: 11/28/2011 12:08:07 AM by oubobcatjohn

bornacatfan
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 12:10:20 AM

Chicken George wrote:

We simply were not used to this stage, the bright lights/big stage and the experience at how to close out these types of games.

Please do not propogate this line of thinking.

All of these players have played on just as big a stage before coming to Ohio. There is not one of them who thinks they are from SEO and have not seen the big City before. Oddly enough Walt is the one who has had the least success at the AAU and HS basketball levels. Without going into the individual resumes and going through the experiences these guys bring to the table game by game I can tell you the YUM center (which should be striped and renamed THE BUCKET) does not intimidate themand the nae Louisville , Kyle Kuric or Pitino does not intimidate them and Van Treese is actually a joke to those who have beat him in AAU and HS ball.

Rico was a KY MVP as was his Louisville counterpart. DJ was the Sun Times player of the yar and won a State Championship in IL. Beleive me when I say these guys can go up and down every roster they play and recall a time when they trounced somebody on any particular roster. Maybe you or the fanbase is fearful or is not used to the bright lights but the recruits coming to OHio under Groce are unimpressed.

I will give you the inexperience as a team at finishing as I am pretty sure that is a current weakness that has more to do with heart , cameraderie and character than it does with anything else

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Chicken George
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 12:27:32 AM

I'll agree that maybe it's simply the team hasn't formed the chemstry or experience of doing this together. At the same time, this is somewhat of a predictable script we saw at Louisville. You see it in the NBA (if pro ball translates) literally every night where the veteran/championship club fiddles around for 3.5 quarters then pulls it out down the stretch with a 10-0 run.

Then it's really evident during the 1st Round of the NCAA Tournament when CBS/ESPN bounces around from game-to-game where the little guy has the big guy on the ropes. Then the big guy puts their foot on the throats of the little guy and the little guy melts under the pressure of those last few minute possessions. I'd say 8 out of 10 times or more the big school comes back and wins after being on the ropes all game long.

All these NBA guys are former high school/college stars and all the little guys in the NCAA Tournament are their own leagues stars who pulled these games out all season long---but if you turn on the TV each week you see the big guys pulling games out the last couple minutes on the big stage every week of the season. I think you just get used to finishing under the bright lights.

You saw that at Louisville. Crowd sits on their hands the entire game, then the last couple minutes everyone wakes up and suddenly the pressure cooker really heats up. Hated to see it, but I don't think it's a script you haven't seen on tv 100x in the past when the "upset alert" note comes on the screen and you quickly turn the channel to see the finish. Sometimes it happens, usually it doesn't.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 2:32:26 AM

Fact: the love knows it all. Ask him.
Fact: Despite it being four games into the new season, a roster without a senior, should whip everyone. Even if we were only so-so at the end of last year.

Yes. We could have..should have, given the late lead..won. And there are ways in which we can improve.

But, the fact is that anyone who'd leave that game entirely dissatisfied is twisted.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

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Casper71
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 9:46:52 AM

I do believe Love has a point here and I thought listening to our broadcasters (who I do like) they were trying to talk up the "good effore"/moral victory/be proud thing. The object is to WIN these kinds of games. And, we coulda, shoulda this one. The object is not to get moral victories and feel good about our effort when we did not close the deal.

bornacatfan
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 10:00:55 AM

CG,

while I respect your opinion, there are a number of mitigating circumstances that exist. YOu are using anecdotal numbers that are not supported by anything. I always hate discussions with that going on as it presents readers with an inaccurate view of what ACTUALLY exists.

If indeed BIG schools (like maybe Duke with an enrollment of 6504 undergrads) do prevail there are many reasons.

-they have better players
      That may come from
          -better conditioning and strength coaches and facilities
         -better nutrition coming from training tables and nutritionists on staff
          -better individual instruction and skill building (see several posts on regression/failure to progress)
           -better and more accessible practice facilities which an athlete is free to use when he wants.
           -better coaching.
All of this assumes these kids saw each other in AAU/Hs ball and were of similar skillsets and size.... the progression of an athlete once he matriculates is based on a combination of any or all of the above.

-they have a homecourt advantage...I e slept in their own bed, had no bus trip, know the court and are familiar with the layout and locker rooms/bench area, crowd friendly and yes ....know that they are going to get calls going their way.

those are just a couple of ideas....and I know Duke is a BIG school in dollars spent as opposed to size'''''
just messing with you there.

The fact is that those athletes are better prepared from the day they step on campus. In the basketball arms race we are gettig closer and the addition of a strength coach who is very good has paid off, COach Groce;s presence is paying off. Adding a practice gym that has a gun, accessibility and a weight area , a way for athletes to get accountability and guidance in their nutrition choices on a daily basis and a few other tweaks that get OUr kids closer to theirs and I think you would see those numbers you are supplying get better.

giacomo
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 10:01:01 AM

There comes a point in the game, during the last several possessions, where you have to make some plays and not turn the ball over. We did the opposite. We played a great game up to that point. We have an experienced point guard in Cooper that should take over the game in that situation. I have to believe he will get it done more times than not in the future.

OUVan
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 10:41:42 AM

Fact - Opinions are not facts
Fact - The loss was frustrating as hell.
Fact - It was a good sign that we played a very good team toe-to-toe
Fact - A loss sucks but that doesn't mean everything sucks.
Fact - With the game on the line we (Walter Offutt) made a tremendous defensive stop.
Fact - The refs were a factor no matter how much you state that they weren't.
Fact - If the refs hadn't called two phantom calls on Ivo he may have been a large factor in the game.
Fact - There is no such thing as a moral victory
Fact - There is such a thing as confidence building loss.

Ozcat
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 10:56:10 AM

Fact. My favorite part of the year is basketball season, when you know Monroe and perimeter will post some sort of slandering reply to Love's (typically) well thought out and accurate portrayal of what he saw.

I checked my phone as soon as I got home from the Schott and saw we had a 6 point lead. I immediately found the game on espn3 and watched us flounder away the lead. It's completely my fault, although, my guess is that Groce didn't draw up the Keely dribble off foot play either. And that blocking call at the end was garbage. That guy plowed his shoulder right into Offutt.

I've said it before, but it's worth stating again: Winning against Louisville, and these other teams early in the season, would be nice. But the only thing that matters is 3-4 games up in Cleveland in early March.

Last Edited: 11/28/2011 11:03:16 AM by Ozcat

Bobcat Love
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 11:41:55 AM

Let me say this in the positive....

I think we have the roster to compete with 98.5% of the teams in Division 1 right now. That's a credit to the staff for putting this team together. We are deeper then I've ever seen us, where we have 10 guys that I would feel comfortable trusting in certain situations. We're young, it's early in the season, and we're going to get a lot better. If Ohio basketball was a stock, I'm buying heavy on margin.

That said, we could have made a lot of people take notice by closing Louisville out. Rephrase. We SHOULD have made a lot of people take notice by closing Louisville out. I've just seen this happen too many times in my Ohio career to let it go with nary a peep.

HeHateMiami
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 11:51:33 AM

I agree with a large portion of what The Love posts on this board, but I refuse to go "fire and brimstone" about Friday's loss. It was incredibly frustrating to miss an opportunity like that, but ultimately that's what I've got to chalk it up to... a missed opportunity. Hopefully, being up on the road against Louisville, and ultimately not being able to hold on will be a lesson that this team can draw on down the line this season. But I'll admit that's a straw that we have to try to grasp at, when we talk about a sport that's ultimately judged by W's and L's, when we come up with an L.

What's more frustrating to me than missing the opportunity (IE: beating Louisville) is that we don't have a lot of other major opportunities like that this season. We've got some OK games against some OK mid-majors on the schedule, but no other premier Louisville-type opponents, which makes taking an L in a game that we really could have (and probably should have) won that much more frustrating. I'd imagine that's one of the things that really had smoke coming out of the Love's ears on his drive back up I-71 the other night. Knowing what this team has coming back next year, I've got to hope they schedule accordingly. Schedule the mid-majors that we should be competing with, but let's find a couple of more opportunities for statement games like this because really, we should win a couple of them.

PS: Gotta agree with The Love that anyone who expects to go into a premier team's gym and get a bunch of 50/50 calls from the refs, isn't being realistic. To win that game we needed to beat Louisville without letting the refs be a factor.

Ozcat
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 12:10:19 PM

HeHateMiami wrote:

Love has touched on this numerous times in the past, but he's absolutely right. I bought an 8 game package for OSU this season. I'll probably only make it down to Athens one or two times. Why?

1) I love great basketball. I'll watch games all year long, and can never get enough. I love Ohio and really enjoy Ohio State, and they both appear to have loads of talent on their rosters, albeit at different levels.

2) I live in Columbus, so a 10 minute drive to the Schott is easier than 90 minutes.

3) I'll get to Athens for Miami. Other than that, what do I get? Marietta, Lamar, and Kennesaw State? Pathetic. On the flip-side, for $200, I get to watch OSU entertain Florida, Duke, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin and then 3 lesser names.

Until OU gets some better programs into the Convo, we'll never take that 'next step' and we'll never get the large, passionate fan base that you see other mid-majors cultivating. Virginia in the Convo was great. So was Temple. I want more.

I'd also love to see the athletic department really promote the MAC tourney to students. It's a blast up there, and other than us die-hards, nobody really knows it.

bobcatsquared
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 1:00:49 PM

Ozcat wrote:

HeHateMiami wrote:

Love has touched on this numerous times in the past, but he's absolutely right. I bought an 8 game package for OSU this season. I'll probably only make it down to Athens one or two times. Why?

Bobcat fan? Definitely.
Die-hard Bobcat fan? Based on "one or two" games in Athens this winter? Hhhmmm.

HeHateMiami
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 1:21:59 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Ozcat wrote:

I'd also love to see the athletic department really promote the MAC tourney to students. It's a blast up there, and other than us die-hards, nobody really knows it.

Bobcat fan? Definitely.
Die-hard Bobcat fan? Based on "one or two" games in Athens this winter? Hhhmmm.

Ah yes, here's where we decide who's the better fan based on who goes to more road games, home games, watches more games on TV, makes the biggest donation, etc...

I'd argue that everyone who spends time posting on this board shares a unique quality that probably classifies them as something of a die-hard. Not sure why there's barely a thread on this board that can go 3 messages without posters criticizing each other on here these days.

FearLeon
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 1:48:41 PM

Fact: Many good facts have been pointed out in this thread.

Fact: I'm on board with Blove. We are way past the moral victory stage. We are less than 2 years removed from almost making the Sweet 16. Let's not forget this.

Fact: It's a bummer that we don't get another shot a top 25 team in non-con. Please Coach Groce...schedule up next year.

Fact: I rarely get the chance to see OHIO play basketball games. Threads like this one keep me well informed and I feel like I have a good idea of what each player can do without watching them play a single minute.

Fact: Wednesday is going to be a difficult test.

Fact: The MAC is stepping up this year.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Big Willy
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 2:58:33 PM

Question - Did anybody read that whole thing???

JAF
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 3:42:14 PM

FACT: I loves me some LOVE straight talk.

OPINION: I think what LOVE does is 85% truth and 15% showmanship and it works...look at the stats.

FACT: The negative nancies on this board shouldn't affect the LOVE's posting style (I'm looking at you Slavin and Perimeter)...in the words of Larry Hunter, the LOVE needs to keep chopping wood.

RSBobcat
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 7:15:09 PM

HeHateMiami wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Ozcat wrote:

I'd also love to see the athletic department really promote the MAC tourney to students. It's a blast up there, and other than us die-hards, nobody really knows it.

Bobcat fan? Definitely.
Die-hard Bobcat fan? Based on "one or two" games in Athens this winter? Hhhmmm.

"Better" fan? How about "more valuable to team success" fan, as in 1. At the game and an actual present "6th man", and, 2. Supporting the program with tickets/Bobcat Club, etc., with actual cash laid on the table.

I bet the number of "fans" drivng 60-120 minutes at the Schott is AT LEAST 2,000 per game. We are part of the formula, when it comes to the "chicken & egg" discussion per attendance, schedules, etc. - can't have one w/o the other.......

RS Bobcat

RSBobcat
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 7:42:35 PM

I agree with a lot of Love's "opinions" (how can you disagree with a "fact")?

After the whole treatise, I think this near the end succinctly sums up what we need to do better moving forward - "...toughen up, grab rebounds, get physical, and take high % shots...". No individual will over the balance of the season become a better shooter, get faster, or bigger, but all can improve to play smarter, and tougher.

Last Edited: 11/28/2011 9:01:37 PM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

Doc Bobcat
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 9:37:06 PM

Fact. DJ Cooper (while I am still his biggest fan) is still taking god awful shots, and getting no flak from the bench. He's not commanding the offense as he has over the past 2 years, and just continues to pull bad shot after bad shot. I'll take the good with the bad, but someone has got to tell him we don't need him to score 20+ to win. In fact, it's probably 6+ with 8-10 assists and we'll be vicious. Why does nobody see this? The shooting % bears it out. Having Walt and Taylor on the roster should give Groce the freedom to eliminate some of the rope Cooper's had in years past. There were 5 or 6 times I would have yanked Cooper out, sat him a minute, and then re-inserted him. Just to send the damn message that these terrible 3's don't do anybody any good.

I'd play Taylor more.

MonroeClassmate
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RE: the LOVE brings fire and brimstone....

Posted: 11/28/2011 9:59:34 PM

Fact--seeing Kent and Akron at the Convo is every bit as fun and exciting as watching O$U battle Michigan and Michigan State at the Shott. Buffalo gets the blood and elbows pumping too.

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