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Topic:  Perspective

Topic:  Perspective
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 10:02:53 AM 
Ran down to Kroger about 6 yesterday and was checking out next to two of our current players. I said to them "I hope you guys stay. I sure enjoyed watching you play." They were very polite and thanked me and then when they finished checking out, made the effort to say have a "good day."

On the short drive home I began to reflect on our short conversation and their life as I interpret it to be. They're basically on the clock 24/7 beholding to a coach who may or may not be the same guy who sat in their living room pitching himself and his program. I'm not sure I could have operated in an environment where I was at the beck and call of someone year round. Sure the NCAA places limits on contact hours and the like but everyone knows there are creative ways around that not to mention "open gyms" and "expectations" that actually are requirements.

My point is quite simple. These are 18 to 22 year old kids performing on a vast stage 30+ times a year and playing a game that they loved at one time and may still love where those in attendance have 1) unrealistic expectations, 2) sometimes measure their own self worth/manlyhood based on the outcome of a game (the picture of the tosu fan crying when his team lost), and 3) spend way more time on something that in the whole scheme of things is nothing more than a diversion of entertainment. And all the while, this happens under the pretense of being at an institution to get a college degree. The kids on Palmer Street last weekend and those of us who attended Spring Fest and frequently the various uptown establishments sure live(d) in a parallel universe.
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bobcatsquared
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Post Count: 5,212

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 10:12:52 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
2) sometimes measure their own self worth/manlyhood based on the outcome of a game (the picture of the tosu fan crying when his team lost),


Alan makes good points and his remark about the crying o$u fan gave me a good laugh and got me thinking, "which crying o$u fan?" Do you mean Buck-I-guy or the Neutron Man?

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio/2014/08/39051/the-cry...

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 10:38:39 AM 
Let me come at this from a slightly different perspective.

As I've posted,I played D1 soccer at O.U.and wrestled D1 at FDU.
Both as walk-ons.

Then again,at the time,O.U. had 1 soccer scholarship,so we were all walk-ons.

That meant we were subject to the same time constraints as any other D1 sport.
But no financial compensation,except meal money for road games.

At O.U. we had some type of off season formal/informal practice,in the Winter and Spring.
We weren't on campus during the Summer.
But you were told,both verbally and by letter,that you were expected to show up
to Fall Camp,"in shape".
That meant running all summer,because the first day of Fall Camp we did a timed run on the Golf Course.

At F.D.U. you were expected to participate in a Spring Sport.
Summers were off campus.
But that meant running and lifting to be ready for practice in the fall.
You'd also try to fit in a camp or two to help with your technique.

We would have given anything to get a scholarship of any kind.

We participated for the love of the sport.

We knew the time commitment going in.

That limited us primarily to practice,class and studying.
Especially for people like me that were engineering majors.

Saturday and Sunday morning practice kind of limited partying uptown on weekends.
(Fests weren't really a "thing" when I was there.)

At O.U. you were not allowed to be in a fraternity.
The coaches rightly felt that you couldn't devote adequate time to both.
FDU didn't really have much Greek Life.

Funny,never felt anything but pride in being able to participate in sports at the college level.
And to represent my University.
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giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,688

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 12:08:26 PM 
That was your experience, as was mine, except I did have a scholarship. Times have changed. My coach made the equivalent of about 150k in today's dollars. I won't belabor the point I've made many times on this subject. The players should at the very least be free agents.
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 12:26:21 PM 
giacomo wrote:
That was your experience, as was mine, except I did have a scholarship. Times have changed. My coach made the equivalent of about 150k in today's dollars. I won't belabor the point I've made many times on this subject. The players should at the very least be free agents.


As I've posted,I'd like to see something along the line of a "Restricted Free Agent".

If your coach leaves or something along those lines you're free to go.

What I'm concerned about is if an athlete can transfer,without any restriction,P5 schools are going to start using smaller schools as a quasi farm system.

Get a scholarship to a school like O.U.
Attend for a year or two to improve your playing skils.

Then move up.



Last Edited: 4/5/2019 12:27:34 PM by rpbobcat
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OU_Country
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Member Since: 12/6/2005
Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 1:07:06 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:

As I've posted,I'd like to see something along the line of a "Restricted Free Agent".

If your coach leaves or something along those lines you're free to go.

What I'm concerned about is if an athlete can transfer,without any restriction,P5 schools are going to start using smaller schools as a quasi farm system.

Get a scholarship to a school like O.U.
Attend for a year or two to improve your playing skils.

Then move up.



I'm 100% on board with this idea. Otherwise, I think a sit out year is fine, and fair - including grad transfers. A player is still on scholarship, and has a full year to improve his or her game and academic standing.


That thought aside - good dose of perspective and reality Alan.

Last Edited: 4/5/2019 1:10:09 PM by OU_Country
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cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,888

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 2:21:41 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Ran down to Kroger about 6 yesterday and was checking out next to two of our current players. I said to them "I hope you guys stay. I sure enjoyed watching you play." They were very polite and thanked me and then when they finished checking out, made the effort to say have a "good day."


Thanks for sharing - according to your post - they did not respond to your statement. Not reading anything into it - probably get asked multiple times a day.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,074

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 2:34:37 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Ran down to Kroger about 6 yesterday and was checking out next to two of our current players. I said to them "I hope you guys stay. I sure enjoyed watching you play." They were very polite and thanked me and then when they finished checking out, made the effort to say have a "good day."


Thanks for sharing - according to your post - they did not respond to your statement. Not reading anything into it - probably get asked multiple times a day.


My bad. They did say "we're staying. We like it here." The point of my post wasn't about whether they are staying or not but about living in that world and the expectations that go with it which in my opinion, need to be greatly reduced.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 2:46:27 PM 
OK, I'll ask. Who were the two players?
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,074

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 3:06:28 PM 
SBH wrote:
OK, I'll ask. Who were the two players?


Since our conversation wasn't "on the record," I can't say. Again though this wasn't about who is staying or leaving but the unrealistic world that we ask these kids to live in. My daughter played four years of D 3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 3:12:07 PM 
Which media organization are you reporting for? :)
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,169

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 5:27:58 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.


Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.

Last Edited: 4/5/2019 5:28:21 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 8:06:54 PM 
Alan, when coaches make millions there is the incentive to keep doing so. Everyone down the pecking order is dreaming of the big pay day. That’s why the kids have so much pressure on them. If they were paid like a professor it would be much different.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,074

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 8:17:10 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Alan, when coaches make millions there is the incentive to keep doing so. Everyone down the pecking order is dreaming of the big pay day. That’s why the kids have so much pressure on them. If they were paid like a professor it would be much different.


G your posts have become like a 1968 Deep Purple album that continues to skip on Hush. I tend to look at things that can change. The demands on student time seems to be the easiest. Heck, use a time clock if you must but let the kids be kids because they are doing what kids do - they are playing a game.

Someone said something to me in the last day or two that state legistlatures had a chance years ago to set a salary limit at colleges and universities where no state employee could make more than the governor. That ship has probably sailed but it's not a bad idea.

Please don't take my first sentence personally.

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Obc2
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Member Since: 11/8/2007
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 596

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 8:17:31 PM 
my hunch is players didn't feel animosity towards Saul for his paycheck, especially if their experience with him was like a recent post on this board.

under his predecessor? yeah, i could imagine so.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 8:38:33 PM 
Obc2 wrote:
my hunch is players didn't feel animosity towards Saul for his paycheck, especially if their experience with him was like a recent post on this board.

under his predecessor? yeah, i could imagine so.


And what post was that? My interpreation of Carter's comments were that he didn't get much coaching.
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/5/2019 10:11:51 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
. . .Someone said something to me in the last day or two that state legistlatures had a chance years ago to set a salary limit at colleges and universities where no state employee could make more than the governor. That ship has probably sailed but it's not a bad idea. . . .


I think you'd find broad support for this idea in Ohio, except for certain quarters in Cowtown. They have tremendous pull with the General Assembly. However, I think if it was put on the ballot as an initiative it might pass, with a good, well-financed advertising program right up to election day. I'd certainly make a contribution to the cause. This, of course, would apply only to state schools, but I'm not worried about Muskingum, Marietta or even Case Western Reserve paying a coach that much! ;-)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/6/2019 4:13:43 PM 
I'm not the only one saying this. From this week's Kiplinger Letter:

COLLEGE SPORTS
Colleges will have to give top athletes more than scholarships fairly soon. Either Congress will make them, or the National Collegiate Athletic Assn., which governs college sports, will beat lawmakers to the punch and take action. Many lawmakers think schools benefit much more than their student athletes.

Colleges made $14 billion from sports in 2017...more than any pro league except the NFL. In 41 states, the highest-paid public workers are college coaches.

One bill would let players receive compensation for the use of their names or images in commercial products. Another would help them get health insurance and summer jobs. Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT) says players are being short-changed on their education by a college sports machine...schools, coaches, sports firms... that doesn't leave time for academics while it makes big bucks off its athletes.
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/6/2019 5:07:48 PM 
I think there needs to be a Division where schools admit athletics are a business. You have to follow all labor and antitrust law. You would have to pay the player what he is worth on the market. The other Divisions would have to be school and student first. If you violate the rules of amateurism and the academic codes of your institution you'd get the book thrown at you to the point where those guilty would never see their school competitive again.

I think that paying a $2000 stipend or something just further blurs the line between school and business and will just lead to more problems in the end. If you say what you are then I can hold you to that standard. If you try to say you're an business when it is convenient and an institution dedicated to higher learning when it is not then I can't.

Last Edited: 4/6/2019 9:59:33 PM by Victory
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/6/2019 9:56:29 PM 
Bills were introduced in Congress circa 1900 to abolish football, because it was too dangerous. Introducing bills in Congress does not really mean much.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/6/2019 10:05:57 PM 

Why College Athletes Will Never Be Paid


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/7/2019 12:31:55 PM 
Good article and all true. However, I’m not certain how a non profit organization pays any employee 10M and complies with that status. I’m going to do a little checking on the subject.
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/7/2019 1:16:22 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Good article and all true. However, I’m not certain how a non profit organization pays any employee 10M and complies with that status. I’m going to do a little checking on the subject.


Because you claim non-profit when it works for you and, "Hey, it is just business" when it doesn't. THIS is what has to stop. Pick one and then be held to it.
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Jeff McKinney
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Member Since: 11/12/2004
Post Count: 6,102

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  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/7/2019 1:42:58 PM 
Victory wrote:
I think there needs to be a Division where schools admit athletics are a business. You have to follow all labor and antitrust law. You would have to pay the player what he is worth on the market. The other Divisions would have to be school and student first. If you violate the rules of amateurism and the academic codes of your institution you'd get the book thrown at you to the point where those guilty would never see their school competitive again.

I think that paying a $2000 stipend or something just further blurs the line between school and business and will just lead to more problems in the end. If you say what you are then I can hold you to that standard. If you try to say you're an business when it is convenient and an institution dedicated to higher learning when it is not then I can't.



Some good thoughts there.

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Jeff McKinney
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Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Perspective
   Posted: 4/7/2019 1:45:42 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.


Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.


I think you may be missing Alan's point, OCF. I think he meant that the Div I model demands too much of an athlete's time year round, but that the Div III model allowed his daughter to have more of a well rounded college experience.
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