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Topic: What does success look like?

Topic: What does success look like?

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Morris Mound
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Member Since: 10/27/2016
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 50

Status: Offline

What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 12:24:11 PM

Hi all, I'm an Ohio grad who has been a lurker on this board since 2008 when I first started attending our alma mater.

Just wanted to finally chime in to say thank you for all the posters who have been producing content and arguments for me to read for years! Also with our program headed to Detroit for the first time in five years,I figured it's time for me to chime in with my modest State of the Program observations.

I've really gotten a kick out of the "war" on BobcatAttack about how to measure the success or failure of the Solich regime. One of the things I love about college football is that success is so subjective. In pro sports, all teams have close to the same resources and talent pool so there is only one marker for success: win a championship. In CFB with it's hundreds of teams spread out among many divisions and conferences, the idea of success can be in the eye of the beholder. For a team like Rutgers success might mean just putting their cleats on correctly before the game. For Alabama it's championship or bust. And for a school like the Charlotte 49ers it's just about making it clear they belong in their new division.

Here on BA, posters like Monroe are singularly focused on the idea of winning a MAC Championship as the ultimate marker of success for our team. I really enjoy the role Monroe plays here on the sub. I think a MAC Championship and a MAC Championship alone as a marker for success is a little ridiculous but I respect that is how he subjectively chooses to measure success and that he's consistent with it. And every good, productive college football message board needs some unbendable zealots!

For me, however, measuring the success of the Solich regime is much more complicated. The Ohio Bobcats football team is never going to play Alabama for the National Championship, so we must come up with some more modest goals for ourselves. What follows are those goals, not in order of importance but in the order they would ideally be achieved. In other words, this list of goals is kind of like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. The stuff at the top (MAC Championship) is perhaps the most important but cannot be achieved until the ones below it are. Here are the goals/responsibilities/expectations, in order, that the Solich regime took on in 2005.

NOTES: Any stats I collect were from manually counting things on college football reference so I apologize ahead of time for any errors.

Level One: Stop Being Absolute Unwatchable Dogsh*t at Football
RESULT: Success
This was the most important level for the Solich regime to achieve. Without it, almost no other goals can be achieved. 1978-1994 on the Ohio Bobcat Football Wikipedia entry is charitably subtitled "A Struggle to Compete" Frank Solich put an end to that with only two losing seasons in 11. You may argue that this was against inferior MAC opponents but those same MAC opponents made a laughingstock of the Bobcats for nearly thirty years.

Level Two: Win Rivalry Games Consistently
RESULT: Success
9 wins against Miami in 11 years. 4 and 3 record against Marshall

Level Three: Beat a P5 Team
RESULT: Mostly success
This is technically a success but I could understand how some people might not be impressed by it. Pitt in 2005 and Illinois in 2006 gave us the impression that beating P5 teams would be a regular occurrence. Then the next one came in 2012 against a Penn State team playing under pretty rough circumstances. This year we got Kansas but they're...you know, Kansas.

Level Four: Beat a Ranked Team
RESULT: Nope

Level Five: Beat a Ranked P5 Team
RESULT Nope

Level Six: Become Ranked
RESULT: Success
This is another one people might not feel good about given that we ended the season in a nosedive but I still think it's an excellent accomplishment. Got the Cats in the hallowed pages of Sports Illustrated too.

Level Seven: Win the MAC East
RESULT: Success
Four times in eleven years. That's actually quite good, especially given the MAC East's volatile nature

Level Eight: Win a Bowl Game
RESULT Success

Level Nine: Win Bowl Games with Some Regularity
RESULT: Close, but not really.
Under Solich, the Bobcats have done a tremendous job of becoming bowl eligible. Two wins in seven appearances isn't ideal, however.

Level Ten: Win the MAC
RESULT: Nope.
This to some is the most important one and I would say that it's my important marker of success too but it's still not the be all, end all. Just because the Bobcats haven't reached this level doesn't make any and all successes before it useless.

CONCLUSION:
I have no idea. I'm happy with the Frank Solich regime because for the most part it's meant that I haven't had to worry about the team being completely hopeless and outclassed against similar MAC opponents. And occasionally I get to experience some hope against superior opponents. Ohio football likely would not have been able to say that for the thirty years up to Frank's hiring so I appreciate it. I totally understand why some posters feel differently though. If your hopes for this team begin and end with a MAC Championship, I see how it could be completely rational to get rid of Frank because at this point I'm starting to suspect he won't win one. Still, I'm happy for the progress we've made and hopefully the next regime, whenever that will take over, will be able to reach the Level Ten of a MAC Championship.

Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 12:57:49 PM

Good post...Keep posting!

The only comments I have are that 1) I hate the standard of 'well, we are no longer absolutely horrible' so we're in okay shape, and 2) going to and winning bowl games is quite diluted now that so very many teams go to bowls (hasn't the MAC had years in which six teams bowled...I don't think anyone would ever claim that there are six MAC teams which are that good).

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

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The Situation
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Member Since: 7/12/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 957

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 1:05:15 PM

This is what success looks like when the people being measured for success get to define success:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OhioBobcatTV/status/8012700026...

D.A.
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Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Georgetown, ME
Post Count: 1,189

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 2:42:17 PM

You can't go by that, as that is a bunch of unmotivated players and are not being motivated or energized by a bunch of unmotivated, non-energized, predictable coaches.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday

giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,692

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 5:11:28 PM

Our program is a success. I don't have to think too hard about it.

TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,112

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 6:55:30 PM

There was an athletics rebranding in the mid 90's with the stated goal of putting the Ohio program in a situation on par with the CUSA programs at the time; on national TV and commensurate post season opportunities in the two major sports. Its been a slow grind to get there and only 100% realized within the last few years. With the program now decently resourced and with exposure the contemporary goal is to increase revenue streams to reduce the reliance on student fee subsidies. The best way to do that is to be very good with records of 10-2 or better. If every game had not just MAC race but national implications on the line for a NYD game with telecast windows bumped up by the networks the Ohio brand has all that more value. Bigger marketing deals and better ticket sales for a program that is a persistent national threat.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

allen
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Member Since: 1/24/2006
Post Count: 4,635

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 7:50:12 PM

We have beaten 5 MAC teams with winning records in the last five years, we have become respectable, but successful is a huge stretch. We are ok, FS has done a great job this year, we have been completely decimated with injuries.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Obc2
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Member Since: 11/8/2007
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 597

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 8:45:37 PM

I'm no football expert, hoops is much more in my wheelhouse.

But, I hoped for a winning record this season and maybe a bowl game.

This season is an overwhelming success in my book.

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,385

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 8:52:50 PM

Obc2 wrote:

. . .

This season is an overwhelming success in my book.

Nice high curveball for Monroe! ;-)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 9:26:54 PM

To all of you who don't think we are successful: look in the mirror. If you think only a MAC championship is acceptable, what have you done? Are you CEO of your company? Salesperson of the year? Is your company the best in your respective market? You get the idea. If you're not, then get off your soapbox and enjoy the season.

Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 10:23:48 PM

Situation, D.A.--Here we have an excellent, balanced lead post. Yet you follow with the absolutist stuff, with inability to reasonably view the whole picture.

Giacomo--Sorry, but is saying, essentially, that only those who are marvelously successful at the top level can comment a sensible approach, a basis for any kind of discussion? Don't those types themselves appreciate solid insight no matter who it comes from?

CA Bobcat
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Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: San Ramon, CA
Post Count: 149

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/27/2016 11:34:58 PM

Morris Mound...now that is a very objective, well thought out, well constructed assessment of our football program. I hope you post at least 8,000 more times because that's what this board needs. I may not even agree with all of it but how you articulate your perspective is a nice change. Like you, I lurked on this board for a very, very long time until it was necessary to interject.

L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,470

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 1:05:11 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Situation, D.A.--Here we have an excellent, balanced lead post. Yet you follow with the absolutist stuff, with inability to reasonably view the whole picture....

Perhaps you can explain, Monroe. How is posting a picture of players celebrating "absolutionist"?

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 2:21:59 AM

Figure it out.

Start with this: the initial post set standards that contain certain characteristics.

The Situation
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Member Since: 7/12/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 957

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 8:40:19 AM

L.C. wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Situation, D.A.--Here we have an excellent, balanced lead post. Yet you follow with the absolutist stuff, with inability to reasonably view the whole picture....

Perhaps you can explain, Monroe. How is posting a picture of players celebrating "absolutionist"?

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Figure it out.

Start with this: the initial post set standards that contain certain characteristics.

From the initial post:

Morris Mound wrote:

Here on BA, posters like Monroe are singularly focused on the idea of winning a MAC Championship as the ultimate marker of success for our team.

I think I figured it out...

Monroe is an absolutist desperately crying out for help to loosen up.

giacomo
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Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,692

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 2:01:24 PM

Monroe, not everyone can be CEO or top salesperson or win the MACC. It doesn't mean they are any less successful. Being in the hunt is probably better than winning it all. We are having a great year and have a chance to win on Friday. It's a good thing. Sports is not reality.

L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,470

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 2:38:37 PM

giacomo wrote:

If you're in it, you have a chance to win it.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 2:44:32 PM

Can we get back to MM's original post?

He (she?) stated 10 criteria that I think are fair, that I believe all sides can agree are reasonable considerations. (Even if my criteria would be weighted differently.)

(So, no, a team being joyous over a victory or achievement is not really in here...I know that video was not this, but a team that was, say 0-10 and had just won a game would be that joyous. So, team joy is not a fitting standard....I get it; a team would be overjoyed upon winning a MACC--but it would be the MACC, not the team's joy, that would be relevant.)

LuckySparrow
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Location: Illinois
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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 3:06:30 PM

Luckily the 2016 team has put themselves in a situation where they can achieve the next level of success. Without a MAC title or Bowl win, it's hard to really difficult for me to consider this season a success.

Bottom line, we're one of the top 5-6 MAC teams on a fairly consistent basis. (NIU, Toledo, BG, CMU, WMU, and OHIO). I want to be top 2 consistently, sort of like Toledo has been for the past five years.

I'd also like to add NFL talent to the OP's levels. We've churned out a few solid pros.

What a day at the Convo.....Wow!

Morris Mound
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Member Since: 10/27/2016
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 50

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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 4:16:38 PM

My exhaustive, well-thought out original post has now devolved into the same old pointless flamewar about MAC Championships...and I couldn't be happier. haha This is how the Internet should always operate!

Monroe, I'm a dude, though I appreciate your leaving the option open I could be a woman. I wonder what the gender breakdown of BA is like.

Morris Mound
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Member Since: 10/27/2016
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 50

Status: Offline

RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 4:21:15 PM

Lucky Sparrow - Good thinking on the NFL prospects. I can't believe I overlooked it as I tend to think one of the best signs of a healthy program is producing NFL talent. Miami has been terrible for years now and I think most college football casual fans who have barely any idea who is in the MAC would assume Miami is a stronger program than Ohio because they produced Ben Roethlisberger.

I realize now that would seem to be an argument against NFL prospects being a marker of a healthy program but it's still the perception. And perhaps moreso than in any other sport, perception matters in college football.

Ultimately, I would like to top 2 or 3 in the MAC every year. Measuring success for me is more of a feeling. I want to feel like we have a legitimate chance to win every MAC game we play.

Cbus Convo
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Location: Upper Arlington, OH
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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 4:49:38 PM

I'm always a fan of the measurables, and the lead post had as many as I could come up, probably more. A more subjective plank in the "measure of success" platform would be; How many MAC programs would change places with us? Similar schools, geographic proximity, not too out of whack on the funding side (of course, there are outliers), similar academic interests. I'd bet almost every other MAC school would take what we have over what they're currently producing. Western would argue that they wouldn't, but that's this year talking. They were 1-11 a few short years ago and MAC history shows us their short term future bodes more strongly for a return to those days than to maintain where they currently sit (assuming Fleck abandons the boat, that is).

bshot44
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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 5:40:35 PM

Cbus Convo wrote:

I would use the same analogy for BG. They've recently been the class of the MAC East and had a really bad year. But they have out-classed Ohio by leaps and bounds the previous four years.

Toledo probably wouldn't trade us either. They've been on the doorstep of national relevance for years...just haven't got over the hump in the West vs. NIU or WMU.

And I'm guessing NIU is pretty happy with themselves. They also had a bad year and struggled the back half of last year....but their program is on pretty solid ground I'd say.

The only programs who are unquestionably behind Ohio are Akron, Kent, UB, Miami, EMU and Ball State I'd say.

That keeps Ohio in the top half....which is nice. But I agree with a lot of others on this thread that say I'd like to be a dominant Top 2 in this league year-after-year. We can't say that.

We're top half....and every few years contend for a top 2-3 spot.

I expected more with the longest tenured coaching staff in the MAC by a lot.

I've said it a thousand times...we're peaking in 2011-2012....but since have taken a step back. The back half of last year and this year have showed flashes of improvement...but we are still a long way from being the dominant program in this league.

We might find that out the hard way on Friday......but that's why they play the games.

OhioStunter
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Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 6:29:11 PM

Over the past 11 years heading into this season:

Ohio
-1 head coach
-80 wins
-7 bowl appearances
-2 losing seasons
-0 MACC

Toledo
-3 head coaches
-79 wins
-6 bowl appearances
-4 losing seasons
-0 MACC

WMU
-2 head coaches
-68 wins
-5 bowl appearances
-4 losing seasons
-0 MACC

BGSU
-3 head coaches
-74 wins
-6 bowl appearances
-3 losing seasons
-2 MACC

CMU
-3 head coaches
-77 wins
-7 bowl appearances
-2 losing seasons
-3 MACC

Akron
-3 head coaches
-45 wins
-2 bowl appearances
-8 losing seasons
-1 MACC

Buffalo
-4 head coaches
-48 wins
-2 bowl appearances
-9 losing seasons (bowl or bust?)
-1 MACC

Miami
-4 head coaches
-41 wins (Solich has nearly double that)
-1 bowl appearance
-9 losing seasons
-1 MACC

Bcat2
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RE: What does success look like?

Posted: 11/28/2016 6:32:02 PM

bshot44 wrote:

Cbus Convo wrote:

B44. He wants the "dominant program in this league." Nothing short of the "dominant program in this league," is success. Well, by wins since 2006 Ohio is the second following NIU. Fourth appearance in the MACC in 12 seasons, not too shabby, again second to NIU over that period. Eighth year bowl eligible, no big deal, well, where are NIU & BG bowling this year?

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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