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Topic:  Frank sort of called out Albin

Topic:  Frank sort of called out Albin
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 12:05:25 PM 
In post game interview, Frank immediately pointed to "coaching mistakes" as a reason for the loss. He cited the option play call on fourth down in the first half. (I hope he remembers that we tried it again on third and short...and failed.) I've now heard him make pretty pointed criticisms of the offensive play calling on at least three occasions this year.

The problem with our offensive coordinator could be seen throughout the first half yesterday. We knew their QB could light us up, so it made sense for us to maximize possession time with long drives. Three first-half drives began with some promise as we picked up 8-10 yards on short passes and converted both through passes and short runs. On all three of those drives he abandoned what was working in order to try ill-advised long strikes into the end zone. First one was intercepted. Second one should have been, but left us with a second and 10 (we did not convert). Third attempt ended up with Windham getting sacked and fumbling the ball. Aldin has ADHD or something - he can't stick with what works and play to our strengths.
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BryanHall
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 3:17:08 PM 
SBH wrote:
In post game interview, Frank immediately pointed to "coaching mistakes" as a reason for the loss. He cited the option play call on fourth down in the first half. (I hope he remembers that we tried it again on third and short...and failed.) I've now heard him make pretty pointed criticisms of the offensive play calling on at least three occasions this year.

The problem with our offensive coordinator could be seen throughout the first half yesterday. We knew their QB could light us up, so it made sense for us to maximize possession time with long drives. Three first-half drives began with some promise as we picked up 8-10 yards on short passes and converted both through passes and short runs. On all three of those drives he abandoned what was working in order to try ill-advised long strikes into the end zone. First one was intercepted. Second one should have been, but left us with a second and 10 (we did not convert). Third attempt ended up with Windham getting sacked and fumbling the ball. Aldin has ADHD or something - he can't stick with what works and play to our strengths.



I hope Albin doesn't fired. It would cut down on disgruntled posts in this forum and prevent the crappy ESPN announcers we get every game from pointing out that the our head coach, defensive coordinator and offensive coordinator have been together since the Truman administration.
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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 3:58:51 PM 
FS should call out FS. Watching Bengals and pats and Brady is both under center and in shotgun. To think we can't line up under center and get half a yard is ridiculous. Maybe FS needs to develop some sort yardage situations in his offensive schemes OR TELL Albin to.

Why not go back to the schemes that won us 9 games a couple of times and got us to a MACC game. I just really hate what we do on both sides of the ball. Sometimes, change is not good.

Last Edited: 10/16/2016 4:03:49 PM by Casper71
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Cats-22
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 4:47:06 PM 
Casper71 wrote:
FS should call out FS. Watching Bengals and pats and Brady is both under center and in shotgun. To think we can't line up under center and get half a yard is ridiculous. Maybe FS needs to develop some sort yardage situations in his offensive schemes OR TELL Albin to.

Why not go back to the schemes that won us 9 games a couple of times and got us to a MACC game. I just really hate what we do on both sides of the ball. Sometimes, change is not good.


FS's did seem to direct some criticism at the whole staff including himself.
Quote:

“I didn’t feel like we did a great coaching job,” Ohio head coach Frank Solich bluntly said afterward.
“When you’re not consistent on both sides of the ball, generally you have a tough time.”

http://www.athensmessenger.com/sports/ohiouniversity/ohio...

I'm not in love with the offensive scheme all the time either. Not sure about mixing in some under-center. Not against it but I think it is hard at the college level, especially for a first-year starter, to master both. Tom Brady is a 14-year NFL veteran and one of the best QBs of all time, so kind of a different case.

Last Edited: 10/16/2016 4:47:44 PM by Cats-22
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 8:56:05 PM 
I like funny: It's difficult to master direct, handoff snap from center. I laugh.


Y'know what would be awesome? If Solich solich'd in New York or Green Bay or Ohio State or Alabama or USC or Michigan or Miami etc, etc, etc. If so, what's gone on here for four years now would have gone on for about 3.5 years less.

Then again, if you tolerate it, don't be surprised if it happens.




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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 8:56:33 PM 
Uh,that is just what I saw today. I've seen colleges do both. In fact, didn't osu do it (last year at least)? I can't be convinced adding 2-3-4-5 plays under center is that difficult. Especially if it ends up being a handoff to an RB in a two back set.
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Cats-22
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 9:34:37 PM 
The snap has to be executed quickly and perfectly, 70 times a game. Dropping back from center is totally different from shotgun, in terms of what QB is seeing, doing, has to think about. The hand-off to the RB is different when you're dropping back versus handing forward. And it's not like stuff doesn't go wrong in QB-center or QB-RB exchanges all the time in football. Turnovers, busted plays result from that part of the game all the time. So having well-practiced second-nature motions is important.

I also don't think you can have such a limited package, 2-5 plays and all hand-offs, from the under-center game either. If you're going to run from under center you have to have enough installed so the defense has multiple things to worry about.

Although, I would agree that having one special play, a QB sneak from under center (even if the D knows it's coming) would probably be good. Every team should probably run that from under center especially now since they changed the rule and other offensive guys are allowed to push the ball carrier.

Last Edited: 10/16/2016 9:40:12 PM by Cats-22
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 10:11:31 PM 
Cats-22 wrote:
The snap has to be executed quickly and perfectly, 70 times a game. Dropping back from center is totally different from shotgun, in terms of what QB is seeing, doing, has to think about. The hand-off to the RB is different when you're dropping back versus handing forward. And it's not like stuff doesn't go wrong in QB-center or QB-RB exchanges all the time in football. Turnovers, busted plays result from that part of the game all the time. So having well-practiced second-nature motions is important.

I also don't think you can have such a limited package, 2-5 plays and all hand-offs, from the under-center game either. If you're going to run from under center you have to have enough installed so the defense has multiple things to worry about.

Although, I would agree that having one special play, a QB sneak from under center (even if the D knows it's coming) would probably be good. Every team should probably run that from under center especially now since they changed the rule and other offensive guys are allowed to push the ball carrier.


Our HS team, a very good one, played a combination of a spread wing-T and single wing. That meant that on some plays our center made a direct snap to the QB immediately behind his butt. On other plays he had to snap the ball 7 yards into the hands of a running back. He didn't make a bad snap of either kind the entire season - and was named honorable mention All-Ohio. Now, are we supposed to believe that an FBS center can't master both the direct snap and the longer snap to a pistol QB?

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 11:00:05 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
I like funny: It's difficult to master direct, handoff snap from center. I laugh.


Y'know what would be awesome? If Solich solich'd in New York or Green Bay or Ohio State or Alabama or USC or Michigan or Miami etc, etc, etc. If so, what's gone on here for four years now would have gone on for about 3.5 years less.

Then again, if you tolerate it, don't be surprised if it happens.




pm me.




Do you realize that there are significant differences between footwork and reads from under center and shotgun? To dismiss the experience factor is silly.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/16/2016 11:04:28 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
Cats-22 wrote:
The snap has to be executed quickly and perfectly, 70 times a game. Dropping back from center is totally different from shotgun, in terms of what QB is seeing, doing, has to think about. The hand-off to the RB is different when you're dropping back versus handing forward. And it's not like stuff doesn't go wrong in QB-center or QB-RB exchanges all the time in football. Turnovers, busted plays result from that part of the game all the time. So having well-practiced second-nature motions is important.

I also don't think you can have such a limited package, 2-5 plays and all hand-offs, from the under-center game either. If you're going to run from under center you have to have enough installed so the defense has multiple things to worry about.

Although, I would agree that having one special play, a QB sneak from under center (even if the D knows it's coming) would probably be good. Every team should probably run that from under center especially now since they changed the rule and other offensive guys are allowed to push the ball carrier.


Our HS team, a very good one, played a combination of a spread wing-T and single wing. That meant that on some plays our center made a direct snap to the QB immediately behind his butt. On other plays he had to snap the ball 7 yards into the hands of a running back. He didn't make a bad snap of either kind the entire season - and was named honorable mention All-Ohio. Now, are we supposed to believe that an FBS center can't master both the direct snap and the longer snap to a pistol QB?


It's not about the center, it's about the footwork, the reads and the mesh. And the single wing and wing T have tons of similarities, which makes it easy. Primary similarity is they are both dominate run formations.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 10:45:57 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
Cats-22 wrote:
The snap has to be executed quickly and perfectly, 70 times a game. Dropping back from center is totally different from shotgun, in terms of what QB is seeing, doing, has to think about. The hand-off to the RB is different when you're dropping back versus handing forward. And it's not like stuff doesn't go wrong in QB-center or QB-RB exchanges all the time in football. Turnovers, busted plays result from that part of the game all the time. So having well-practiced second-nature motions is important.

I also don't think you can have such a limited package, 2-5 plays and all hand-offs, from the under-center game either. If you're going to run from under center you have to have enough installed so the defense has multiple things to worry about.

Although, I would agree that having one special play, a QB sneak from under center (even if the D knows it's coming) would probably be good. Every team should probably run that from under center especially now since they changed the rule and other offensive guys are allowed to push the ball carrier.


Our HS team, a very good one, played a combination of a spread wing-T and single wing. That meant that on some plays our center made a direct snap to the QB immediately behind his butt. On other plays he had to snap the ball 7 yards into the hands of a running back. He didn't make a bad snap of either kind the entire season - and was named honorable mention All-Ohio. Now, are we supposed to believe that an FBS center can't master both the direct snap and the longer snap to a pistol QB?


It's not about the center, it's about the footwork, the reads and the mesh. And the single wing and wing T have tons of similarities, which makes it easy. Primary similarity is they are both dominate run formations.


Not always. When we went to the spread wing-T, we split receivers wide both sides. Opponents knew what to expect and it wasn't running. Our QB - a tough guy who blocked when running the single wing - threw a dozen TD passes from the wing-T. And, again, our center mastered both the direct snap to QB on his butt and the 7-yarders. Footwork? It doesn't start before the snap - or when it does we see yellow flags.

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OUcats82
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 11:02:13 AM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
Cats-22 wrote:
The snap has to be executed quickly and perfectly, 70 times a game. Dropping back from center is totally different from shotgun, in terms of what QB is seeing, doing, has to think about. The hand-off to the RB is different when you're dropping back versus handing forward. And it's not like stuff doesn't go wrong in QB-center or QB-RB exchanges all the time in football. Turnovers, busted plays result from that part of the game all the time. So having well-practiced second-nature motions is important.

I also don't think you can have such a limited package, 2-5 plays and all hand-offs, from the under-center game either. If you're going to run from under center you have to have enough installed so the defense has multiple things to worry about.

Although, I would agree that having one special play, a QB sneak from under center (even if the D knows it's coming) would probably be good. Every team should probably run that from under center especially now since they changed the rule and other offensive guys are allowed to push the ball carrier.


Our HS team, a very good one, played a combination of a spread wing-T and single wing. That meant that on some plays our center made a direct snap to the QB immediately behind his butt. On other plays he had to snap the ball 7 yards into the hands of a running back. He didn't make a bad snap of either kind the entire season - and was named honorable mention All-Ohio. Now, are we supposed to believe that an FBS center can't master both the direct snap and the longer snap to a pistol QB?


It's not about the center, it's about the footwork, the reads and the mesh. And the single wing and wing T have tons of similarities, which makes it easy. Primary similarity is they are both dominate run formations.


Not always. When we went to the spread wing-T, we split receivers wide both sides. Opponents knew what to expect and it wasn't running. Our QB - a tough guy who blocked when running the single wing - threw a dozen TD passes from the wing-T. And, again, our center mastered both the direct snap to QB on his butt and the 7-yarders. Footwork? It doesn't start before the snap - or when it does we see yellow flags.



I watched most of the Clemson-NC State game and this was a problem for the Tigers on multiple occasions and almost cost them a win one could argue. To their credit, they did line up under center in a jumbo/goal line beef package in OT to pick up a first down on 4th and short. But earlier in the game they had the ball inside the five with goal to go a few times and got stuffed at the LOS after lining up in the gun. One was especially meaningful because it was a 4th/goal stop for NC State and kept Clemson going up two scores.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrnPgtPslKo

If teams can practice things like hail marys or onside kicks-things that are sparsely used, getting into a set to pick up one yard should be manageable even if a big deviation from the base offense. A fumble is the worst thing that can happen I think and if it is 4th down, you are giving the ball back anyways. I don't know-I will never coach football on a high level but it just doesn't strike me as impossible or difficult as it is made out to be by a group of players who have been playing the game since at least junior high in most cases.

Ohio-The State University
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 11:07:09 AM 
OUcats82 wrote:
If teams can practice things like hail marys or onside kicks...



Speaking of onside kicks...I thought ours was one of the dumber I have seen. EMU had no one more than 15 yards deep. We had 2 kickers on the field. If you want to run a (poorly executed) fake, fine, but READ WHAT THE OTHER TEAM IS SHOWING, BOOT THE DAMN BALL DEEP, AND SEND YOUR GUNNERS AFTER IT.

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TheRealMikeDrake
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 11:56:16 AM 
C Money wrote:

Speaking of onside kicks...I thought ours was one of the dumber I have seen. EMU had no one more than 15 yards deep. We had 2 kickers on the field. If you want to run a (poorly executed) fake, fine, but READ WHAT THE OTHER TEAM IS SHOWING, BOOT THE DAMN BALL DEEP, AND SEND YOUR GUNNERS AFTER IT.


This. The first onside kick EMU had a guy deep, but pulled him up for the second onside kick after the timeout. Of course, we were offsides anyways so I suppose I just would have been more frustrated had we kicked it deep and recovered.
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Cats-22
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 12:01:20 PM 
The footwork in question is by the QB after the snap. I do think for just the QB sneak, that's not an issue though.

Especially for QB sneak and maybe for other plays, it's not impossible to run some plays from under center. The only question is how much is the benefit versus what it costs you in practice reps for the rest of your offense.

IMO this offense probably has bigger fish to fry than adding lots of plays from under center. I do think adding just the QB sneak could be good though. I might be wrong, of course.
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OUcats82
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 1:24:09 PM 
Cats-22 wrote:
The footwork in question is by the QB after the snap. I do think for just the QB sneak, that's not an issue though.

Especially for QB sneak and maybe for other plays, it's not impossible to run some plays from under center. The only question is how much is the benefit versus what it costs you in practice reps for the rest of your offense.

IMO this offense probably has bigger fish to fry than adding lots of plays from under center. I do think adding just the QB sneak could be good though. I might be wrong, of course.


Having a QB keeper under center is all I am asking for. It's no big surprise the majority of the time to the opponent what is going to happen when you trot a jumbo package onto the field short of maybe going to the left or right of the center. It's muscle and beef on muscle and beef and who gets a better push.

Ohio-The State University
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 3:02:14 PM 
OUcats82 wrote:
Cats-22 wrote:
The footwork in question is by the QB after the snap. I do think for just the QB sneak, that's not an issue though.

Especially for QB sneak and maybe for other plays, it's not impossible to run some plays from under center. The only question is how much is the benefit versus what it costs you in practice reps for the rest of your offense.

IMO this offense probably has bigger fish to fry than adding lots of plays from under center. I do think adding just the QB sneak could be good though. I might be wrong, of course.


Having a QB keeper under center is all I am asking for. It's no big surprise the majority of the time to the opponent what is going to happen when you trot a jumbo package onto the field short of maybe going to the left or right of the center. It's muscle and beef on muscle and beef and who gets a better push.


+1. I'm not a football genius, but I can't see why having 5 plays for short yardage under center would be that hard. Sneak, tailback run left/right, fullback handoff, and a play action play of some kind. We're only looking talking 2 yards to go or less.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 3:02:34 PM 
Great point about not kicking deeper on an onside kick when they only had one guy deep.


Seriously? This is football folks. To put in a few plays with our qb taking a direct handoff snap is not a project that will cost billions of dollars, years to develop, and cost many lives.

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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 3:13:18 PM 
No, you guys are silly! It ain't rocket science or brain surgery. You just put in a FEW basic plays with simple reads to get 1 yard. You don't have two complete offensive packages.
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Cats-22
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/17/2016 8:44:26 PM 
I would vote for only going under center for a QB sneak for < 1 yard situations. You might technically call that two plays because the QB can read left or right of center. Super easy, no drop-back or hand-offs.

Do we need 1-2 other options to keep the D honest? I don't know. I'm thinking not. Any case if the debate is between 2 plays vs. 5 plays we're not really that far apart.
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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/19/2016 7:52:21 PM 
C Money wrote:
OUcats82 wrote:
If teams can practice things like hail marys or onside kicks...



Speaking of onside kicks...I thought ours was one of the dumber I have seen. EMU had no one more than 15 yards deep. We had 2 kickers on the field. If you want to run a (poorly executed) fake, fine, but READ WHAT THE OTHER TEAM IS SHOWING, BOOT THE DAMN BALL DEEP, AND SEND YOUR GUNNERS AFTER IT.



I was screaming about this from the stands. The likelihood that we actually recover the onside kick is slim, so at least give them bad field position. In fact, sending your gunners on a free-for-all after a lob probably gives you a better chance of recovering than the standard onside kick.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank sort of called out Albin
   Posted: 10/19/2016 9:03:28 PM 
shabamon wrote:
C Money wrote:
OUcats82 wrote:
If teams can practice things like hail marys or onside kicks...



Speaking of onside kicks...I thought ours was one of the dumber I have seen. EMU had no one more than 15 yards deep. We had 2 kickers on the field. If you want to run a (poorly executed) fake, fine, but READ WHAT THE OTHER TEAM IS SHOWING, BOOT THE DAMN BALL DEEP, AND SEND YOUR GUNNERS AFTER IT.



I was screaming about this from the stands. The likelihood that we actually recover the onside kick is slim, so at least give them bad field position. In fact, sending your gunners on a free-for-all after a lob probably gives you a better chance of recovering than the standard onside kick.


Grobe liked pooch kicks that did on occasion create panic among returners.

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