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Topic: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Topic: FINAL USA RANKINGS

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Casper71
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Member Since: 12/1/2006
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FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/15/2016 3:20:36 PM

Seems about right...

Toledo-32
BG-42

NIU-56
WMU-58
CMU-68
OHIO-69
Akron-72

Buff-93
Kent-109
Balls-110
MU-112
EMU-126

Looks like a Top 2, the next 5 and the bottom 5.

L.C.
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/15/2016 6:03:24 PM

I think you are about right about the precision. In any case the interesting thing is that the best team wasn't even in the championship game.

Last Edited: 1/15/2016 6:04:30 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

OhioBobcat
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/15/2016 9:50:24 PM

L.C. wrote:

I think you are about right about the precision. In any case the interesting thing is that the best team wasn't even in the championship game.

I would say this much, the best team from the West - at the end of the season - probably wasn't in the MACC. I still think UT and WMU were both better than NIU even though they both lost to NIU. I would equate it to when OU lost to Miami a few years ago 23-20. OU was the better team, but Miami beat them that day. Play that game 5 more times and Ohio wins it each time. I still think in the end BG was the best team in the MAC, even though BG lost to UT. But keep in mind BG also beat WMU and NIU which were both teams that beat UT.

Clearly BG was and has been the best team in the East for years now. That part is easy and is a no-brainier. But in the West, NIU wasn't quite the team it was at midseason.Yes, NIU did somehow manage to beat both UT and WMU after they lost Hare and Lewis to injuries and I'm still not sure how they did it. But they eventually ran out of gas by the time they played Ohio, BG and Boise State, and they were especially outmatched vs BG and Boise. I still think UT and WMU are better than NIU. If UT and WMU played NIU five more times I'm taking them both over NIU each time. But credit NIU, they won when they played them the one time head to head and earned the West tiebraker title after tying with 3 other teams (also with CMU, who beat NIU).

L.C.
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/15/2016 10:45:20 PM

It's interesting that NIU has owned Toledo and WMU in recent years, while Toledo has owned BG.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

OhioCatFan
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/16/2016 2:56:40 PM

OhioBobcat wrote:

I know that I'm in the minority here, but I'm always very uncomfortable with statements like this, which I see all the time. I think who is the better is decided on the field. If Team A beats Team B, they are by definition the better team. I'll concede that Team A might have gotten a break if they played Team B when it was hobbled with injuries, and you might say that you think Team B would beat Team A, if they had to play them again. However, until such a rematch occurs, Team A is better than Team B by definition, in my book. Looking at it any other way, IMHO, is to degrade the importance of what happens on the field.

This whole issue was argued ad nauseum on the basketball forum after we knocked Michigan out of the NCAA tournament. Some maintained that Michigan was still the better team. I say OHIO was the better team because when push came to shove, we found a way to win, and Michigan did not. I don't care how many McDonald's All-Americans they might have. Who is best is determine not on paper, or by ESPN talking heads, but by what happens on the field or on the court.

Last Edited: 1/16/2016 2:58:20 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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OhioBobcat
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/16/2016 9:43:30 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

OhioBobcat wrote:

I see your point, and don't totally disagree with it, but how would you describe an upset then? The better team doesn't always win. Upsets happen all the time. For example, if Ohio beat Alabama this year in football 24-21 because Alabama turned the ball over 6 times and Ohio kicked a FG on the last play, does that mean Ohio is the "better team?" I would say no with 100% certainty. But I would say Ohio was the better team for "that game." Being the better team and being the better team a particular game are two very different things, but are also very common and happen often.

Last Edited: 1/16/2016 9:44:45 PM by OhioBobcat

OhioCatFan
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/16/2016 11:28:41 PM

Well, if OHIO beat Alabama as you describe, I would admit that there was some luck involved, but at the same time I would say that OHIO was the best team because they won the game. I guess it's a matter of definition, but I guess I put more weight on what happens on the field than what a team looks like on paper or in the weighty analysis that many folks give. In the early years of this 21st Century, NIU went down to Tuscaloosa and beat The Tide. In that year, I would say NIU was the better team.

My interpretation of an upset is different than yours, and most others. If Team A is a 3 TD favorite over Team B, but Team B wins the game, I say Team B is the better team and all it shows is that the odds markers didn't know what they were talking about in this particular game. Again, on the field results trumps prognostications and expert opinion and "body of work" analysis.

L.C.
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/16/2016 11:51:38 PM

A different question is who is the better team when Toledo beats BG which beats NIU which beats Toledo? You can't answer that question based on on-the-field results, so you have to use other data. In my opinion Toledo was the best.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

OhioBobcat
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/17/2016 10:44:24 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Per the NIU/Bama example, Alabama was a totally different animal in 2003 than it is now. The year NIU beat Alabama, NIU finished 10-2 and had 3 wins vs BCS schools that year (Bama, Maryland, Iowa State). Alabama finished 4-9 that season. They were 8-4 the year prior and 9-3 the year after so it's pretty safe to say they weren't very good in 2003. So yes, anyone could argue that NIU was probably the better team that year, and I would agree that they probably were. They won head to head and had a much better season. Granted, they played a much different schedule, but still. But I completely disagree that if Ohio beat Alabama this year that Ohio it would make OU the better team between the two. No way, no how. I fully admit that if that were to have happened anyone could say that Ohio would have played the better game and I would even concede they were even the better team - that day. But no way in the world would that make Ohio the better overall team.

OhioBobcat
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/17/2016 11:12:47 AM

L.C. wrote:

The BG-UT situation is totally up for debate. It's why many including the MAC wanted to see them play again in the MACC. When those two meet UT clearly plays the better game. There's something to be said for how UT always seems to bring out the worst in BG when they do. But the head scratcher is how does that same UT team that beat BG also turn around and lose to both NIU and WMU at home, whereas BG beat WMU on the road and NIU on a neutral field. It's safe to say you could make the case for either UT or BG as being the best and you wouldn't be wrong picking either one. But the thing that holds me back from saying Toledo was the best is that not only didn't UT even win its own division, but UT has a losing record (1-2) against the teams it tied with in the West. I can't state UT was the best team in the MAC when it couldn't even win it's own division and had a losing record against the ones it tied with to boot. BG not only won its division, but it beat the MAC West champ who also was the team that beat both UT and WMU. BG beat WMU and NIU, won its own division and won the MAC Championship game. UT did none of those four things, it only beat BG. And with that, BG gets my nod as the best in the MAC based on all of that.

OhioCatFan
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/17/2016 12:27:48 PM

But Toledo beat 8-5 (5-3 SEC) Arkansas, so if you are looking at "body of work" what do you conclude? I conclude that "body of work" has no place in such analysis. And, it is one of the most overworked and generally most meaningless terms in current sports phraseology. I know that no one in this thread has used this phrase, except me, but I think the underlying concept has been implied.

Last Edited: 1/17/2016 12:52:33 PM by OhioCatFan

OhioBobcat
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/17/2016 12:44:48 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

But Toledo beat 8-5 (5-3 SEC) Arkansas, so if you are looking at "body of work" what do you conclude? I conclude that "body of work" as no place in such analysis. And, it is one of the most overworked and generally most meaningless terms in current sports phraseology. I know that no one in this thread has used this phrase, except me, but I think the underlying concept has been implied.

Yes, I do count it. The MAC had 4 wins vs P5 teams this year with BG and UT each with 2. But let's forget about the entire MAC East division for a minute. Now let's ask the question: Who was the best team in the MAC West? Four teams finished tied for first place in: NIU, WMU, UT and CMU. Toledo went 1-2 vs the other three losing at home to both NIU (in a game that NIU played without Hare and Lewis in the second half where UT led) and to WMU. So was Toledo even the best team in the MAC West??? If they weren't even the best team in the West, I find it hard to even say they were the best team in the entire MAC.

OhioCatFan
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/17/2016 12:55:12 PM

OhioBobcat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

I agree with you here. It's hard to conclude that UT was the best team in the MAC based on head-to-head comparisons, but some would conclude that anyway based on who they beat out-of-conference, which I agree is essentially irrelevant to the current discussion.

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: FINAL USA RANKINGS

Posted: 1/17/2016 1:31:38 PM

I think Toledo was the best team. They lost two games by five points each. They had their worst games at the worst possible times and it cost them the division. The truly best team doesn't always win a game or a championship.

As for defining who is better only by who wins on the field, you create a circle. Toledo lost to WMU and NIU. NIU lost to CMU and BG, both teams Toledo beat. WMU lost to NIU and BG. CMU lost to WMU and Toledo. Even if you use that method, it's a wash. Four teams in the West went 6-2 and BG was 7-1 and I'd be surprised if they didn't lose twice had they played all the West teams.

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