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Topic:  Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?

Topic:  Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 7:42:15 PM 
OK, guys and gals, and especially, Alan, was that FG that was called "no good" actually good? From one camera angle it looked just outside, from another -- probably better -- angle it looked good. Which was it? Were the officials correct or not?


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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 7:54:01 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OK, guys and gals, and especially, Alan, was that FG that was called "no good" actually good? From one camera angle it looked just outside, from another -- probably better -- angle it looked good. Which was it? Were the officials correct or not?


Did not see it. However, is there a better angle than the official under the post? Just saying, I know that is annoying. Sorry.


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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 7:55:22 PM 
Watching live and on the first replay, to me it look a trifle wide. From the second replay angle, it looked good.


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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 7:55:43 PM 
Only one opinion counts...no good.
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MedinaCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 10:22:16 PM 
I was perplexed when the TV crew stated something along the lines of "any ball inside or outside the goalpost is reviewable, but one above is not." Did I hear that wrong? The kick appeared to be directly above the upright to me.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 10:43:43 PM 
If the entire ball was not inside the upright as it crossed the vertical plane of the crossbar, it's no good (from http://www.mycommunitynow.com/sports/rules-of-officiating... ):

Here are five of the biggest things fans may not realize:

1 The kick is no good if it's directly over the upright. If any part of the football is "outside the inside of the upright extended," the kick is no good. Rule 8-4-1c states: The kicked ball shall pass between the vertical uprights or the inside of the uprights extended and above the crossbar of the opponent's goal. Case Book play 8.4.1 Situation A provides the following: The field goal attempt: (a) goes directly over an upright; or (b) is clearly over the cross bar between the uprights. In (a) and (b), the ball is blown back by the wind so that it drops into B's end zone. RULING: In (a), it is an unsuccessful attempt because the ball did not penetrate the plane of the goal between the inside of the uprights extended. It is a legal goal in (b) and it doesn't matter if the ball comes back above or below the crossbar.

(Also, here: http://wilson.engr.wisc.edu/rsfc/intro/johnson.shtml )

Question: When the offensive team attempts a field goal, sometimes the ball will travel high above the field goal posts, especially when done at a close range. If the ball appears too travel just above the left or right post of the field goal post or even higher, at what point is the goal good?

Answer: NFHS & NCAA: The ENTIRE ball must pass to the inside of the INSIDE edge of the upright extended indefinately above the upright.
NFL: The ENTIRE ball must pass to the inside of the OUTSIDE edge of the upright extended indefinately above the upright.

BOTH: Since the upright is 3-4 inches in diameter and the football is more than 4 inches in diameter in any direction, a ball that passes EXACTLY over an upright will be no good under all 3 codes because part of the ball will be breaking the aforementioned plane.

Last Edited: 12/26/2015 10:54:07 PM by Pataskala


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 11:07:18 PM 
Pataskala, thanks for the excellent summation of the rules. The second camera angle, not the first, referred to above showed the ball clearly inside the inside of the upright bar and over the horizontal bar, and therefore according to the rules you posted good. However, the first showed it right over the upright, and therefore, no good. I have no idea which is correct, and to me this is another example of how angles can be very deceptive. The second one was actually right under the goal post looking up and would seem to be the best angle, but was it better than the angle that the officials had, I'm really not sure. I was just curious what others thought.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 11:08:16 PM 
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 11:32:06 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


The announcers stated a couple of times that it is not reviewable if it is above the tops of the goal posts


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 11:34:16 PM 
bornacatfan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


The announcers stated a couple of times that it is not reviewable if it is above the tops of the goal posts



Do you know this for a fact? Announcers say many things, sometimes they actually know what they are talking about.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 11:39:50 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
bornacatfan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


The announcers stated a couple of times that it is not reviewable if it is above the tops of the goal posts



Do you know this for a fact? Announcers say many things, sometimes they actually know what they are talking about.



Nope. You asked a question, I gave you the answer that was provided on the telly a few times. I have to assume from that little stripes huddle on the side line they thought the same thing as the kicker was questioning them.


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/26/2015 11:52:45 PM 
bornacatfan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
bornacatfan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


The announcers stated a couple of times that it is not reviewable if it is above the tops of the goal posts



Do you know this for a fact? Announcers say many things, sometimes they actually know what they are talking about.



Nope. You asked a question, I gave you the answer that was provided on the telly a few times. I have to assume from that little stripes huddle on the side line they thought the same thing as the kicker was questioning them.



Sorry, I didn't mean to be combative. But, I find it curious that while from the first camera angle it looked to be not only above the upright but no good based on the rules as Pataskla stated them, from the second angle it look like the ball was a little lower and inside the upright. So, it would seem to me that they could review where the heck the ball actually was. I'm not arguing that the call was wrong. I'm just curious about the process.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 12:05:14 AM 
The only explanation I've seen is that, by rule, since the ball went over the top of the upright it isn't reviewable. If it's above the top of the upright, the angles aren't trustworthy unless you have a camera looking straight up the upright (such as on a ref's cap). This is different from Toledo's situation at Syracuse a few years ago when the ball went the below the top of the uprights, was reviewed and the call was still botched.

Last Edited: 12/27/2015 12:06:01 AM by Pataskala


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 12:25:44 AM 
Pataskala wrote:
The only explanation I've seen is that, by rule, since the ball went over the top of the upright it isn't reviewable. If it's above the top of the upright, the angles aren't trustworthy unless you have a camera looking straight up the upright (such as on a ref's cap). This is different from Toledo's situation at Syracuse a few years ago when the ball went the below the top of the uprights, was reviewed and the call was still botched.


Thanks, Pataskala, this makes sense, but what confuses me is that I thought that on the second camera angle the ball looked a little lower and I wasn't sure it was as high as it looked on the first one. I guess the bottom line is that on these types of plays camera angles can be very deceptive, even when the camera is right back of the end zone. Maybe we need laser beams on the top of the goal posts to extend the effective height on plays like this. I just want them to get it right. Yes, that Toledo-Syracuse botch was clearly the worst call of that season and the reigning worst call until the now-infamous four-yard line safety.


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Only one OHIO
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 1:13:18 AM 
The second view they showed in which the ball looked lower was a worse angle than the original one IMHO. I think the ball a outside the upright.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 9:05:02 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


Balls above the uprights are not reviewable, as there is No camera angle that would be in perfect view of the ball in relation to the uprights extended.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 9:07:19 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
bornacatfan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
bornacatfan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Related question: why was there no attempt to review this close call?


The announcers stated a couple of times that it is not reviewable if it is above the tops of the goal posts



Do you know this for a fact? Announcers say many things, sometimes they actually know what they are talking about.



Nope. You asked a question, I gave you the answer that was provided on the telly a few times. I have to assume from that little stripes huddle on the side line they thought the same thing as the kicker was questioning them.



Sorry, I didn't mean to be combative. But, I find it curious that while from the first camera angle it looked to be not only above the upright but no good based on the rules as Pataskla stated them, from the second angle it look like the ball was a little lower and inside the upright. So, it would seem to me that they could review where the heck the ball actually was. I'm not arguing that the call was wrong. I'm just curious about the process.



The KEY word here is "ANGLE", angles can do many things to perception
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Sean Gallagher
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 10:07:08 AM 
I thought the kick was good, but I thought the "no good" call on the kick made up for a terrible "no call" on the prior play involving intentional grounding by the Indiana QB. Had they got that right the yardage and loss of down would have made the kick even more problematic.

This call reminded me (in the reverse) of the AFC championship game in January 1987 ('86 NFL season) where Denver kicker Rich Karlis was credited with making the game winning FG on OT against the Browns. I was there and to this day I still feel the kick was no good. But with it being a judgment call and the misleading angles we sometimes see on TV, who knows if that Indiana kick was good? I did feel bad for the kicker who was kind of left to himself on the field wondering "what happened."
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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 10:33:57 AM 

The angle that people are using from the middle of the goalposts is terrible. Anything will look good from that angle. Below is a better picture from behind the goalposts and shows the ball as it is coming down. You can see that it is "touching" the goalposts. Given the angle of the kick, it was probably even further outside of the goalposts when it crossed over top of them.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 10:53:00 AM 
Ted, this angle thing is very confusing. The angle you said is terrible, the announcers said, or implied, was the better angle. Again, I'm not saying that the FG attempt was good, just that there seem to be all kinds of differing opinions on what angles are best to ascertain these things.


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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 10:59:02 AM 
based on how the kicker lit into his holder following the earlier miss, I didn't feel a great deal of sympathy for him after the final call.
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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 11:04:18 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Ted, this angle thing is very confusing. The angle you said is terrible, the announcers said, or implied, was the better angle. Again, I'm not saying that the FG attempt was good, just that there seem to be all kinds of differing opinions on what angles are best to ascertain these things.


No it's really not. The referee stands under the upright (best angle) not in the middle of the uprights (not a good angle).


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 11:06:07 AM 
I'm talking about camera angles not referee angles. Yes, I agree the referees should, indeed, have the best angle, assuming their eyesight is good. ;-)


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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 11:12:54 AM 
I'm not sure how you can look at the picture I posted and still have doubt. Unless you just don't want to believe it. Even if you move the point of view to the left, the ball would still be "touching" the goalpost. Given the angle of the kick, the ball would have been even further outside. I guess we'll all just have to agree this is A-Rod's fault.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Indiana FG against Duke...was it good?
   Posted: 12/27/2015 11:20:27 AM 
I'm not disagreeing with anything. I said earlier that I wasn't contesting the ruling that the attempt was no good. The officials had the best view. However, I'm continually surprised at the different conclusions one can draw from vastly different angles. I'm not sure any of the angles of camera shots that I've seen would be definitive, though yours is probably the best.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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