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Topic:  Never seen before in a football game (by me)

Topic:  Never seen before in a football game (by me)
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/19/2015 7:16:50 PM 
Watching Newark HS get shut out last night by Pickerington North I saw the Wildcats attempt zero punts. Instead, Newark would bring their place kicker and holder out on fourth downs, the majority of which were within Newark's own 30-yard line. Had no idea this was allowed. Can anyone please explain (be nice BillytheCat - I readily admit my lack on knowledge on this rule).

Last Edited: 9/19/2015 7:20:44 PM by bobcatsquared
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PhiTau74
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/19/2015 7:28:25 PM 
It would be considered a field goal attempt so the other team can return it.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/19/2015 8:27:41 PM 
Yes, but doesn't the defense take over from the original line of scrimmage after a missed FG? That's what I thought. Instead, Pick North took over where the ball went out of bounds or where it stopped rolling or where it's returner was tackled.

Again, something new for me.

Last Edited: 9/19/2015 8:27:59 PM by bobcatsquared
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bn9
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/19/2015 8:49:45 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Yes, but doesn't the defense take over from the original line of scrimmage after a missed FG? That's what I thought. Instead, Pick North took over where the ball went out of bounds or where it stopped rolling or where it's returner was tackled.

Again, something new for me.


Newark did that against Zanesville also. It is the weirdest thing I have seen in football.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/19/2015 10:26:46 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Yes, but doesn't the defense take over from the original line of scrimmage after a missed FG? That's what I thought. Instead, Pick North took over where the ball went out of bounds or where it stopped rolling or where it's returner was tackled.

Again, something new for me.

Hmm, that was the old rule, but it was changed perhaps 20 years ago in college. Maybe it hasn't been changed in Ohio at the High School level?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/20/2015 2:10:26 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Watching Newark HS get shut out last night by Pickerington North I saw the Wildcats attempt zero punts. Instead, Newark would bring their place kicker and holder out on fourth downs, the majority of which were within Newark's own 30-yard line. Had no idea this was allowed. Can anyone please explain (be nice BillytheCat - I readily admit my lack on knowledge on this rule).


Bobcatsquared, I'll be easy;-), and it's a good question and a unique strategy that actually given the rules difference in High School, College and the NFL is not a bad strategy.

1. A place kick by an average HS player can go longer than a punt. (think distance difference on average HS Kick-off v Average punt)

2. Regardless of the LOS in HS, any kick that reaches the goal line (at any LOS) is a touchback, even if it has NO chance of going through the uprights. (means NO return allowed, as the goaline is dead on all kicks) so starting position is guaranteed the -20 with NO chance of return), and hey, you may get lucky.

3. Any kick that fails to reach the goal line is treated like a punt, and must be covered by the return team or face the opportunity to be downed short of the goal line. And if the kick goes "real wide left/right" the kick is downed there and possession changes The advantage here is that most all teams do not practice "returning FG's". So, in essence, there is no rule where you receive the ball at the previous spot or from the spot of the kick (NFL and college rules), but rather where the ball becomes dead.

On a side note, some solid upgrades to White Field this season, now here is to Newark turning the football program around.

Last Edited: 9/20/2015 2:27:07 AM by BillyTheCat
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davepi2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/20/2015 7:32:27 AM 
I remember reading a article in Sports Illustrated back in the late 60's that told that Hillsdale College would do the same thing when Jan Stenerud played there as he could kick the ball higher and farther then anyone who punted on the team.
'
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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/20/2015 8:24:08 AM 
Would appear to be a great return opportunity.

On extra points and field goals the team kicking lines up to not have the kick blocked--no worry about running down the field to cover.

Would seem that the return team could hem them at the line better and thus give the returner a 15 yard head of steam without worrying about a fair catch.
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bn9
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/23/2015 3:40:23 PM 
MonroeClassmate wrote:
Would appear to be a great return opportunity.

On extra points and field goals the team kicking lines up to not have the kick blocked--no worry about running down the field to cover.

Would seem that the return team could hem them at the line better and thus give the returner a 15 yard head of steam without worrying about a fair catch.


If I remember correctly, they kicked the ball out of bounds every time.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/23/2015 4:44:49 PM 
Had a talk in my school building this week with a Granville assistant coach. He said it is up to the discretion of the umpiring crew, and should be decided before the game. Either play it like it's a punt, or like it is a missed field goal and the defense gets the ball at the original line of scrimmage. Again, something new for me.
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Scott Woods
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 8:33:02 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Had a talk in my school building this week with a Granville assistant coach. He said it is up to the discretion of the umpiring crew, and should be decided before the game. Either play it like it's a punt, or like it is a missed field goal and the defense gets the ball at the original line of scrimmage. Again, something new for me.


If true, that's nuts. Why would a rule like this be up to the discretion of the umpiring crew? Can't change the rules from game to game.

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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 11:25:20 AM 
There's a lot of weird rules that few people know about, but hopefully officials do. Any type of "scrimmage kick" is treated the same, so teams can punt or try field goals and the result is the same. The kicked ball may be returned by the receiving team as long as it doesn't go out of bounds or cross the goal line. (So yes, on actual field goal tries, the opponent can return the ball if it doesn't cross the goal line, and if they don't return it, the ball will be downed where ever it stops. The ball does not go to the line of scrimmage like in college.). It just doesn't seem very logical to try a "field goal" as a punt attempt because it doesn't set you up to stop a return at all, so I'm not sure why this team thought it benefited by doing this.

A couple of other interesting rules:
- After a made field goal or touchdown, the opponent has the option of which team kicks off. Obviously, they are going to pick to receive the ball, but they don't have to.
- After any fair catch, the receiving team has the option of a free kick field goal try. The opponent cannot try to block it.
- This rule was done in about 10 years ago, but teams used to be able to throw a second (or third) forward pass on a play, as long as they were behind the line of scrimmage on all passes.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 11:35:33 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Had a talk in my school building this week with a Granville assistant coach. He said it is up to the discretion of the umpiring crew, and should be decided before the game. Either play it like it's a punt, or like it is a missed field goal and the defense gets the ball at the original line of scrimmage. Again, something new for me.


That is NOT even remotely true!

A field goal is a scrimmage kick, a punt is a scrimmage kick, the only difference is the use of the holder and the ability to score points. All other rules and regulations apply. All scrimmage kicks are treated the exact same once the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.

This is an exert from a 2012 case book, this rule has not changed. And the rules from which this comes are notated at the bottom of the case study. In edition if K covering the kick downs the ball, or commits first touching, that is treated exactly as a punt, meaning that "if the ball was downed" R would take possession at the spot of the dead ball. If first touching then R would have the choice to take the ball at the spot of first touching or the result of the play when the ball became downed.

KICKS INTO R’S END ZONE – TOUCHBACK
*6.3.1 SITUATION A: A scrimmage kick by K1 comes to rest on R’s 6-yard line.
R1 attempts to recover and advance, but muffs the ball so that it rolls into the end
zone where: (a) R2 downs the ball; or (b) R3 recovers and advances out of the
end zone; or (c) K2 recovers and downs the ball in the end zone. RULING: The
ball became dead as soon as it broke the plane of R’s goal line. It is a touchback
in (a), (b) and (c). The kick had not ended because muffing does not constitute
possession, therefore, it is a kick into R’s end zone which is an automatic touchback.
The covering official should sound the whistle immediately when the ball
becomes dead as a result of breaking the goal-line plane. Force is not a factor on
kicks going into R’s end zone. R will put the ball in play, first and 10, from their
20-yard line. (2-24-2; 8-5-3a)
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 11:36:39 AM 
Scott Woods wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
Had a talk in my school building this week with a Granville assistant coach. He said it is up to the discretion of the umpiring crew, and should be decided before the game. Either play it like it's a punt, or like it is a missed field goal and the defense gets the ball at the original line of scrimmage. Again, something new for me.


If true, that's nuts. Why would a rule like this be up to the discretion of the umpiring crew? Can't change the rules from game to game.


Correct, you cannot change the rules, and you cannot decide which rules your crew believes are important enough to enforce.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 11:40:09 AM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
There's a lot of weird rules that few people know about, but hopefully officials do. Any type of "scrimmage kick" is treated the same, so teams can punt or try field goals and the result is the same. The kicked ball may be returned by the receiving team as long as it doesn't go out of bounds or cross the goal line. (So yes, on actual field goal tries, the opponent can return the ball if it doesn't cross the goal line, and if they don't return it, the ball will be downed where ever it stops. The ball does not go to the line of scrimmage like in college.). It just doesn't seem very logical to try a "field goal" as a punt attempt because it doesn't set you up to stop a return at all, so I'm not sure why this team thought it benefited by doing this.

A couple of other interesting rules:
- After a made field goal or touchdown, the opponent has the option of which team kicks off. Obviously, they are going to pick to receive the ball, but they don't have to.
- After any fair catch, the receiving team has the option of a free kick field goal try. The opponent cannot try to block it.
- This rule was done in about 10 years ago, but teams used to be able to throw a second (or third) forward pass on a play, as long as they were behind the line of scrimmage on all passes.


Spot on with the rule of the scrimmage kick.

With the free kick off a fair catch (or awarded fair catch), you line up with a tee, no holder, just like a Kick-off, and the RT team lines up at the restraining line 10 yards from the spot of the ball. If the ball goes through the up rights its 3 points.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 11:43:02 AM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

- After a made field goal or touchdown, the opponent has the option of which team kicks off. Obviously, they are going to pick to receive the ball, but they don't have to.


I actually saw this option taken once years ago in a game I was watching on black and white TV. I cannot remember the exact circumstances, but the team scored upon opted to kickoff rather than receive the other team's kickoff. I think the team that had been scored upon was ahead by several TDs at that point. The decision might have been due to weather conditions and the chances of fumbling a fair catch try.

Last Edited: 9/24/2015 11:47:22 AM by OhioCatFan

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OUcats82
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 2:24:08 PM 
I bet a lot of people were refreshed on how some of these rules work after the Iron Bowl a few years ago.

Are there any other games anyone on here is familiar with that ended on a "kick-six?"

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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 2:54:36 PM 

OUcats82 wrote:
I bet a lot of people were refreshed on how some of these rules work after the Iron Bowl a few years ago.

Are there any other games anyone on here is familiar with that ended on a "kick-six?" 

According to the AJC, 4 times in FBS in the last 40 years. But the other 3 weren't game-enders.

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/college/how-rare-missed-field-goal-returned-touchdown/nb8mB/

  1. 1966 - California defensive back Don Guest returned a missed field 100 yards, statistically - according to Pac-12 records - in the third quarter against Washington State in Spokane.
  2. 1968 - Clemson's Richie Luzzi did the same against Georgia at Sanford Stadium. In the second quarter, Luzzi was eight yards deep in the end zone when he caught Georgia's 47-yard missed field goal attempt and ran it back for a score. It remains the longest play in Clemson history. 
  3. 2013 - LSU wide receiver Odell Beckham returned a 59-yard missed field goal against UAB in the third quarter.
  4. 2013 - Auburn/Alabama

Beckham's return

 

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 2:58:40 PM 
I thought it sounded strange, but it was coming from a high school coach. I asked him a second and third time, but he stood by his first explanation.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 3:03:14 PM 
Did I see a block in he back on about the 45 yard line? The runner was already ahead of the potential tackler, but . . .

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 3:09:05 PM 
But if you are back to return it and get tackled at the 4 is it a safety?
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 3:15:53 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


With the free kick off a fair catch (or awarded fair catch), you line up with a tee, no holder, just like a Kick-off, and the RT team lines up at the restraining line 10 yards from the spot of the ball. If the ball goes through the up rights its 3 points.



IMO, the best obscure rule in football. I was screaming at my TV at the end of Super Bowl XLVII, but alas, Jim Harbaugh did not hear me. For those that don't remember, Baltimore was up 5 on San Fransisco with about 15 seconds left. They had to punt from their own endzone. Baltimore's punter (wisely) ran around and burned about 10 seconds off the clock but took an intentional safety. Lead is now 3, and the 49ers gets the ball.

San Fran had David Akers as their kicker, who, while not the most accurate in history, had a hell of a leg. Had the returner taken a fair catch, Akers would have had a shot at about a 65 yard FG. Not great odds, but better than trying to return the kickoff for a touchdown.

Last Edited: 9/24/2015 3:16:18 PM by C Money
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 9:10:23 PM 
Ted Thompson wrote:
OUcats82 wrote:
I bet a lot of people were refreshed on how some of these rules work after the Iron Bowl a few years ago.

Are there any other games anyone on here is familiar with that ended on a "kick-six?"

According to the AJC, 4 times in FBS in the last 40 years. But the other 3 weren't game-enders.
http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/college/how-rare-missed-fi... / 1966 - California defensive back Don Guest returned a missed field 100 yards, statistically - according to Pac-12 records - in the third quarter against Washington State in Spokane. 1968 - Clemson's Richie Luzzi did the same against Georgia at Sanford Stadium. In the second quarter, Luzzi was eight yards deep in the end zone when he caught Georgia's 47-yard missed field goal attempt and ran it back for a score. It remains the longest play in Clemson history. 2013 - LSU wide receiver Odell Beckham returned a 59-yard missed field goal against UAB in the third quarter. 2013 - Auburn/Alabama
Beckham's return



It basically only makes sense in college to try to return a missed field goal at the end of a half because in college, the ball comes back to the line of scrimmage, so the odds aren't very good that you'll return it beyond there. But in high school, it always makes sense to return a missed field goal if you can.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 10:15:07 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
I thought it sounded strange, but it was coming from a high school coach. I asked him a second and third time, but he stood by his first explanation.


By rule, the last person you ever want to ask about a High School rule is a high school coach. 1. They are not coaches by profession, 2. They watch too much Saturday or Sunday football. 3. There are over 200 rules differences from Sunday and Friday.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Never seen before in a football game (by me)
   Posted: 9/24/2015 10:20:51 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Did I see a block in he back on about the 45 yard line? The runner was already ahead of the potential tackler, but . . .




That block did not effect the play, so that will not be called 99.9% of the time in the college game. If its not impact full on the play,it's not being called, and that block was 5-10 yards behind.
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