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Topic:  Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more

Topic:  Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
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RPO R6V
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  Message Not Read  Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 11:59:42 AM 
http://www.cleveland.com/expo/erry-2018/04/75b2bda3ed/mon...
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 12:14:05 PM 
WOW! That's a lot of money being spent in Southeastern Ohio.

"No. 5 - Ohio University

Total expenses: $32,621,410

Ticket revenue: $1,181,793

Contributions: $2,084,887

Subsidy from student fees or other non-athletic school sources: $20,090,007. This subsidy, which accounts for 62 percent of athletic expenses, amounts to $736 a year per student on campus."
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 12:33:57 PM 
Maddog13 wrote:
WOW! That's a lot of money being spent in Southeastern Ohio.

"No. 5 - Ohio University

Total expenses: $32,621,410

Ticket revenue: $1,181,793

Contributions: $2,084,887

Subsidy from student fees or other non-athletic school sources: $20,090,007. This subsidy, which accounts for 62 percent of athletic expenses, amounts to $736 a year per student on campus."



Do the math on our "ticket revenue" and see what we made per game. That is a tad troubling. Especially that our ticket revenue is only $213K larger than Akron's ticket revenue.

Last Edited: 4/11/2018 12:42:58 PM by BillyTheCat
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 12:50:23 PM 
These numbers don't add up. Taking Ohio as an example, they spend $32,621,410 on sports. This money comes from:
Fees: $20,090,007
Tickets: $1,181,793
Contributions: $2,084,887

That leaves $9,264,723 unaccounted for. Where does this money come from? Some ot it is presumably from money games. Another part is probably TV revenue. Perhaps another source is concession revenue? Still I can't believe those three account to >$9 million.

Listing the ten schools based on fee/student, it is:
Wright State $611
Kent $701
Ohio $736
Cleveland St $796
UC $870
YSU $991
BGSU $1011
Toledo $1167
Akron $1269
Miami $1332




“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 3:03:37 PM 
L.C. wrote:
These numbers don't add up. Taking Ohio as an example, they spend $32,621,410 on sports. This money comes from:
Fees: $20,090,007
Tickets: $1,181,793
Contributions: $2,084,887

That leaves $9,264,723 unaccounted for. Where does this money come from? Some ot it is presumably from money games. Another part is probably TV revenue. Perhaps another source is concession revenue? Still I can't believe those three account to >$9 million.



The other $9.2 million probably comes from Parking Services, in the form of waived/cancelled/potential fees for all those cars parking in university lots on Fall Saturdays.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 3:07:57 PM 
Ah, yes, Cleveland.com's annual "No other state school but OSU should have an intercollegiate athletics program" story. Tiresome.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 4:46:16 PM 
There's a lot of good data here. Haven't looked closely into all of it, but I noted that Ohio's student subsidies DROPPED from the previous year to the latest year of reporting. And Ohio spends less than any other team in the MAC (except Kent St.) on average student fees toward athletics.


I know there is a lot of factors that drive higher expenses for athletics, but the top really has to be coaching salaries. Given the high (and I mean high) college coaching salaries at big schools, the smaller schools are trying to stay on pace, but there's no way. These big schools/coaches are really skewing the playing field with salaries.

EDIT: Fellas, I'm not gonna lie. When you look at numbers like this, it doesn't bode well for mid-major sports. Ohio does a really nice job keeping costs in check, but it still can be tough to defend. As economic situations tighten, it becomes more difficult to justify spending this much on athletics without a great return. Not factored into any of this are the economic impacts of local games, which I'm sure are harder to justify given attendance issues.

Last Edited: 4/11/2018 4:54:13 PM by OhioStunter
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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 5:37:18 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
There's a lot of good data here. Haven't looked closely into all of it, but I noted that Ohio's student subsidies DROPPED from the previous year to the latest year of reporting. And Ohio spends less than any other team in the MAC (except Kent St.) on average student fees toward athletics.


I know there is a lot of factors that drive higher expenses for athletics, but the top really has to be coaching salaries. Given the high (and I mean high) college coaching salaries at big schools, the smaller schools are trying to stay on pace, but there's no way. These big schools/coaches are really skewing the playing field with salaries.

EDIT: Fellas, I'm not gonna lie. When you look at numbers like this, it doesn't bode well for mid-major sports. Ohio does a really nice job keeping costs in check, but it still can be tough to defend. As economic situations tighten, it becomes more difficult to justify spending this much on athletics without a great return. Not factored into any of this are the economic impacts of local games, which I'm sure are harder to justify given attendance issues.


Per the current OHIO Admissions prospective student brochure: Estimated Total Annual Expense per student per year- $24,508

*That includes tuition, room and meal plan, but excludes any books/supplies/transportation/all other elective related costs.

Student Fee Directed to ICA- $736, precisely 3% of cost of attendance

Of the $736, the most significant line item cost in that fee is tuition, room and board for scholarship athletes, all of which are revenue streams to the University.

I never lose sleep over this expense, as I likely paid as much if not more as a percentage to subsidize ICA in my era due to more sports/student athletes in the '80's and the very limited offsetting revenues compared to the modern era

By extension, nor do I find this onerous, especially when most here complain about the increasing ticket cost and related seat licenses for paying customers.

If you find it onerous, then either put up, shut up or lobby the Trustees to get OHIO to drop ICA.

And here is a good challenge match to all you Bobcat fans: if you value OHIO Athletics as much as or more than you did when you were a student, then why don't you try to spend at least $736 per year on supporting the programs, if not more.

Students don't have a choice in paying this fee aside from attending a college that doesn't have a larger fee/subsidy, which as you can see is not easy, so shouldn't you choose to selectively spend at least as much as they do?

Last Edited: 4/11/2018 6:01:26 PM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/11/2018 7:55:17 PM 
Edit: I think what you are saying is that OU makes a profit on tuition, room and board, so the cost of that to scholarship athletes is not a true cost. That's a valid point. However, a counterpoint could be that those 346 scholarship athletes could be 346 full-revenue students. I'm not making that case, I'm just looking at both sides here and how the numbers would look to bean counters.

Last Edited: 4/11/2018 8:00:11 PM by OhioStunter
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 9:28:04 AM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Edit: I think what you are saying is that OU makes a profit on tuition, room and board, so the cost of that to scholarship athletes is not a true cost. That's a valid point. However, a counterpoint could be that those 346 scholarship athletes could be 346 full-revenue students. I'm not making that case, I'm just looking at both sides here and how the numbers would look to bean counters.


This is the right answer. And at the same time that subsidy money could be put into money for student and/or faculty recruitment. What would move Ohio forward as a university better? 18M a year hoping for the magical Flutie Effect to grace our campus for two or three years or 18M a year into scholarships and endowed faculty chairs?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 9:29:33 AM 
SBH wrote:
Ah, yes, Cleveland.com's annual "No other state school but OSU should have an intercollegiate athletics program" story. Tiresome.








No, it's Cleveland.com's annual "Why are state universities pumping nearly $200M a year of taxpayer and student money into keeping money losing athletic departments afloat" story. Relevant.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 11:39:24 AM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Edit: I think what you are saying is that OU makes a profit on tuition, room and board, so the cost of that to scholarship athletes is not a true cost. That's a valid point. However, a counterpoint could be that those 346 scholarship athletes could be 346 full-revenue students. I'm not making that case, I'm just looking at both sides here and how the numbers would look to bean counters.

The counterpoint really isn't completely valid, though. What percentage of Ohio's students are full-pay? Many of them would be on financial aid, too. In any case, I removed the scholarships from the fees, and the fee portion/student excluding the scholarships looks like:
Wright State $401
Ohio $443
Kent $445
YSU $546
UC $567
Cleveland St $568
BGSU $587
Toledo $680
Miami $723
Akron $896

As I look at the data, it raises lots of questions. First, what portion of the atheletic department budget is for the actual teams, and what portion goes to things that can be used by all students? For example, the IPF is a split use facility. Is only the portion of the IPF budget that is related to it's use by teams included in the Athletic department budget?

Next, let's look at a couple sub-lists. First, Ticket revenue:
UC $7,420,821
Toledo $1,973,602
BGSU $1,941,787
Ohio $1,181,793
Miami $1,143,399
Akron $968,083
Kent $915,201
YSU $504,442
Wright St $320,198
Cleveland St $114,648

It's obvious why UC is at the top, and Wright State and Cleveland State are at the bottom, with YSU next. Among the MAC teams, why are Toldedo and BGSU so much higher than the others? Other than those two, Ohio is doing pretty well, but can Ohio learn something from BG and Toledo? Considering that Ohio leads the conference in attendance, why is the dollar revenue down so close to everyone else?

Next, let's look at the piece of the pie not listed, and call it "revenue from other sources". Those sources could be concessions, licensing revenue, TV revenue, bowls, parking revenue, etc.

UC $24,766,867
Ohio $9,264,723
Kent $8,541,390
Miami $7,678,821
Toledo $7,155,507
Akron $6,317,226
BGSU $3,737,017
YSU $3,578,715
Wright St $3,389,106
Cleveland St $1,286,800

Here Ohio is king of the MAC, and at the other extreme, BG is doing horribly here.

OUPride wrote:
... And at the same time that subsidy money could be put into money for student and/or faculty recruitment. What would move Ohio forward as a university better? ...

I think this is the right question. I wish Americans didn't put so much emphasis on sports, but they do. In today's environment, I think that it is probably unfortunately true that the emphasis on Sports would move Ohio forward as a University better. For example, consider the endowment growth at Ohio. It seems indisputable that the growth was much higher in the last decade than previously.

For another data point, here's an exercise someone could undertake, if they have time. Take the US News ranking of colleges, and sort them based on the level of support they have for sports. What is the average ranking of the 65 P5 teams? What is the average ranking of the G5 teams? What is the average ranking of FCS teams? What is the average ranking of teams that have Division I basketball, but not football? What is the average ranking of teams that are not Division I in either sport? I think I can guess that there are some super-elite schools without Division 1 sports that do fine (Ivy league, MIT, U. Chicago, Claremont, etc), but that on the whole P5 schools rank higher than G5 schools, who rank higher than FCS schools, who rank higher than Division 2 schools.

Last Edited: 4/12/2018 10:01:43 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 10:00:44 PM 
OUPride wrote:
SBH wrote:
Ah, yes, Cleveland.com's annual "No other state school but OSU should have an intercollegiate athletics program" story. Tiresome.


No, it's Cleveland.com's annual "Why are state universities pumping nearly $200M a year of taxpayer and student money into keeping money losing athletic departments afloat" story. Relevant.


One thing that makes the situation different in Ohio than a lot of the other states is that you've got huge population bases in SW Ohio and NE Ohio which are going to pull for their universities to continue at the Division 1 level. I believe in Virginia they tried with some success pushing a bill limiting student fees through the legislature. With 2 ACC schools dominant in state appropriations and the biggest population center in the state with only one Division 1 school in George Mason it isn't possible to gang up on the P5. OSU receives a proportionate share of money from the state while the most because its the biggest enrollment school. VT/UVA pick up a 3 to 1 funding ratio compared to the other state universities.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 10:10:16 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Maddog13 wrote:
WOW! That's a lot of money being spent in Southeastern Ohio.

"No. 5 - Ohio University

Total expenses: $32,621,410

Ticket revenue: $1,181,793

Contributions: $2,084,887

Subsidy from student fees or other non-athletic school sources: $20,090,007. This subsidy, which accounts for 62 percent of athletic expenses, amounts to $736 a year per student on campus."



Do the math on our "ticket revenue" and see what we made per game. That is a tad troubling. Especially that our ticket revenue is only $213K larger than Akron's ticket revenue.


We don't have an answer for it either. Season ticket sales and prices have probably peaked. All we can do is take that 40ppg offense and steamroll the competition. Put our hope on the best team in the country.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 10:23:37 PM 
According to these figures we have 27,296 students on campus. Where did that number come from?
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/12/2018 11:15:36 PM 
L.C. wrote:

I think this is the right question. I wish Americans didn't put so much emphasis on sports, but they do. In today's environment, I think that it is probably unfortunately true that the emphasis on Sports would move Ohio forward as a University better. For example, consider the endowment growth at Ohio. It seems indisputable that the growth was much higher in the last decade than previously.

For another data point, here's an exercise someone could undertake, if they have time. Take the US News ranking of colleges, and sort them based on the level of support they have for sports. What is the average ranking of the 65 P5 teams? What is the average ranking of the G5 teams? What is the average ranking of FCS teams? What is the average ranking of teams that have Division I basketball, but not football? What is the average ranking of teams that are not Division I in either sport? I think I can guess that there are some super-elite schools without Division 1 sports that do fine (Ivy league, MIT, U. Chicago, Claremont, etc), but that on the whole P5 schools rank higher than G5 schools, who rank higher than FCS schools, who rank higher than Division 2 schools.


The endowment growth happened to be timing of a few large gifts to the university that occurred during the last campaign. Growth from sports correlation is tied to having a big national player. UC has had its fair share in basketball over the years and a lot of Top 25 rankings. Michael Vick at Virginia Tech and Randy Moss at Marshall. Ohio can have guys drafted in the 3rd, 2nd or 1st round even but it won't be notable unless the guy was talked about on ESPN all week.

Last Edited: 4/12/2018 11:36:13 PM by TWT

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/13/2018 9:52:48 AM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
OSU receives a proportionate share of money from the state while the most because its the biggest enrollment school. VT/UVA pick up a 3 to 1 funding ratio compared to the other state universities.


Actually, that's no longer true. With the USO reforms under Strickland/Fingerhut, there are now three state revenue streams for public universities. The instructional subsidy stays the same, as it has since the sixties, and is equal for all universities. The biennial capital appropriations bill is usually fairly equitable. OSU gets the most, but not out of line with their student population and overall budget compared to other universities. What's new is the performance based funding. This primarily is based on retention and graduation rates. Right now, only OSU and Miami are benefiting from this.

The unintended consequences of this is that you have schools like Wright and Akron trying to become more selective to get a dip at this money when they should remain open admission commuter schools serving their region. That's why I've always favored dividing the system up into two or three tiers that each have separate funding allocations and systems. They way that the UC campuses in California are funded under a completely separate model than the CSU campuses. The notion that Ohio State and Shawnee State are funded under the same model is some backwards ass #$%@
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/13/2018 10:58:08 AM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Maddog13 wrote:
WOW! That's a lot of money being spent in Southeastern Ohio.

"No. 5 - Ohio University

Total expenses: $32,621,410

Ticket revenue: $1,181,793

Contributions: $2,084,887

Subsidy from student fees or other non-athletic school sources: $20,090,007. This subsidy, which accounts for 62 percent of athletic expenses, amounts to $736 a year per student on campus."



Do the math on our "ticket revenue" and see what we made per game. That is a tad troubling. Especially that our ticket revenue is only $213K larger than Akron's ticket revenue.


We don't have an answer for it either. Season ticket sales and prices have probably peaked. All we can do is take that 40ppg offense and steamroll the competition. Put our hope on the best team in the country.


Best team in the "country"? Are you feeling o.k.?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/13/2018 5:20:27 PM 
L.C. wrote:


For another data point, here's an exercise someone could undertake, if they have time. Take the US News ranking of colleges, and sort them based on the level of support they have for sports. What is the average ranking of the 65 P5 teams? What is the average ranking of the G5 teams? What is the average ranking of FCS teams? What is the average ranking of teams that have Division I basketball, but not football? What is the average ranking of teams that are not Division I in either sport? I think I can guess that there are some super-elite schools without Division 1 sports that do fine (Ivy league, MIT, U. Chicago, Claremont, etc), but that on the whole P5 schools rank higher than G5 schools, who rank higher than FCS schools, who rank higher than Division 2 schools.


I'd argue that you're putting the cart before the horse. When the P5 conferences were formed, they were formed among schools that were the flagships, land-grants and AAU type schools. Those schools were destined to be among the top publics 50 or 60 years down the road when college ranking came into vogue. OSU was AAU in 1916. It wasn't a real national power in football until the 30s. I don't think you can separate the two and find a causality occurring.
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/14/2018 8:57:39 AM 
OUPride wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
OSU receives a proportionate share of money from the state while the most because its the biggest enrollment school. VT/UVA pick up a 3 to 1 funding ratio compared to the other state universities.


Actually, that's no longer true. With the USO reforms under Strickland/Fingerhut, there are now three state revenue streams for public universities. The instructional subsidy stays the same, as it has since the sixties, and is equal for all universities. The biennial capital appropriations bill is usually fairly equitable. OSU gets the most, but not out of line with their student population and overall budget compared to other universities. What's new is the performance based funding. This primarily is based on retention and graduation rates. Right now, only OSU and Miami are benefiting from this.


That change in funding formula was made right after OSU had firmly established itself as a competitive admissions school. They wouldn't have allowed it in the 80's I'm sure.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/14/2018 9:00:16 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Maddog13 wrote:
WOW! That's a lot of money being spent in Southeastern Ohio.

"No. 5 - Ohio University

Total expenses: $32,621,410

Ticket revenue: $1,181,793

Contributions: $2,084,887

Subsidy from student fees or other non-athletic school sources: $20,090,007. This subsidy, which accounts for 62 percent of athletic expenses, amounts to $736 a year per student on campus."



Do the math on our "ticket revenue" and see what we made per game. That is a tad troubling. Especially that our ticket revenue is only $213K larger than Akron's ticket revenue.


We don't have an answer for it either. Season ticket sales and prices have probably peaked. All we can do is take that 40ppg offense and steamroll the competition. Put our hope on the best team in the country.


Best team in the "country"? Are you feeling o.k.?


Yes. Did Boise State ever have the nations best recruiting class? That didn't stop them from ranking in the Top 3 on both sides of the ball at their peak. There is a point where you have take a second team all conference QB and 40ppg and just roll with it.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/14/2018 9:27:57 AM 
OUPride wrote:
L.C. wrote:


For another data point, here's an exercise someone could undertake, if they have time. Take the US News ranking of colleges, and sort them based on the level of support they have for sports. What is the average ranking of the 65 P5 teams? What is the average ranking of the G5 teams? What is the average ranking of FCS teams? What is the average ranking of teams that have Division I basketball, but not football? What is the average ranking of teams that are not Division I in either sport? I think I can guess that there are some super-elite schools without Division 1 sports that do fine (Ivy league, MIT, U. Chicago, Claremont, etc), but that on the whole P5 schools rank higher than G5 schools, who rank higher than FCS schools, who rank higher than Division 2 schools.


I'd argue that you're putting the cart before the horse. When the P5 conferences were formed, they were formed among schools that were the flagships, land-grants and AAU type schools. Those schools were destined to be among the top publics 50 or 60 years down the road when college ranking came into vogue. OSU was AAU in 1916. It wasn't a real national power in football until the 30s. I don't think you can separate the two and find a causality occurring.


Land grants and the significant players at the time. Most G5 developed later in football, moving up as enrollments increased. Ohio in 1985 had the most under developed football program in the MAC.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/14/2018 10:15:53 PM 
OUPride wrote:
I'd argue that you're putting the cart before the horse. When the P5 conferences were formed, they were formed among schools that were the flagships, land-grants and AAU type schools. Those schools were destined to be among the top publics 50 or 60 years down the road when college ranking came into vogue. OSU was AAU in 1916. It wasn't a real national power in football until the 30s. I don't think you can separate the two and find a causality occurring.

That's a fair argument, but you can compensate for any bias from that. Instead of looking at the absolute ranking, take the earliest Ranking, and compare that to the current one. Which have moved up most? P5? G5? FCS? Division II? Division III? No sports? Which have moved down?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/15/2018 10:48:59 AM 
L.C. wrote:
OUPride wrote:
I'd argue that you're putting the cart before the horse. When the P5 conferences were formed, they were formed among schools that were the flagships, land-grants and AAU type schools. Those schools were destined to be among the top publics 50 or 60 years down the road when college ranking came into vogue. OSU was AAU in 1916. It wasn't a real national power in football until the 30s. I don't think you can separate the two and find a causality occurring.

That's a fair argument, but you can compensate for any bias from that. Instead of looking at the absolute ranking, take the earliest Ranking, and compare that to the current one. Which have moved up most? P5? G5? FCS? Division II? Division III? No sports? Which have moved down?


Interesting but hard to do. I think the USN rankings for a long time were just the top 50 schools with the rest grouped into tiers 2 through 4 and the schools listed alphabetically within a tier. Within the last 15 years or so, you could look to see if any G5 or low P5 school has had a marked improvement that coincided with sustained football or basketball success.

At the end of the day though, if one justifies athletic subsidies based on some hoped for effect on the academic side of the university, I think it's a highly dubious argument since we're debating whether only a few schools have seen any fundamental Flutie Effect and for overwhelming number of schools it's been a clear money pit. It's a much more intellectually honest position to just say, I want big time sports at my school and I don't care what it costs to fund them rather than attempting to justify it based on some highly debatable (and even then for only a handful of schools) argument that those athletic departments somehow move the academic side forward.

In any event, there are two pretty good Flutie Effect cases to watch in the next couple of years in Nevada and Loyola.
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Inside the sports budgets at Akron, Kent State, Cleveland State, other Ohio schools; ticket sales, student fees, more
   Posted: 4/15/2018 2:13:56 PM 
I said it on the basketball board but the "Flutie Effect" is tied to big household name players. Kenyon Martin was all over ESPN when he was at UC. That is the type of player that is going to get HS students excited. What happened in the years succeeding Ohio's run to the Sweet 16? Student attendance started a long term nose dive. That is because the Sweet 16 wasn't tied to a household name player. Where Ohio is in the food chain Its more about competing at a high level to get alumni buy-in. Playing in FBS for bowl games is a lot easier to convince alumni to support than FCS. A 13,000 seat basketball arena that can get rowdy is easier to get buy-in with. Outsiders don't really care but to the OU community its important.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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