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Topic:  Recruiting challenge

Topic:  Recruiting challenge
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/18/2017 3:30:51 PM 
Recruiting always been a challenge. How much more so will it be as the FBS ranks swell with the addition if teams in the talent-rich Southeast and Southwest? I'm think of such programs as Charlotte, Old Dominion, FAU, FIU, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, UTSA, Texas State and so on.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/18/2017 10:27:16 PM 
Recruiting is mostly driven by what conference you play in and the media deal it has. Its also driven by where you can win. All of these new southern schools in conferences without a TV deal are competing among themselves for the same players driving down their competitive level compared to the top programs in the conference. The G5 is becoming top heavy with 2-3 serious programs per conference. For how many years now has it been Toledo, NIU, Ohio consistent factors in the MAC with BG/CMU/WMU often in the mix? The talent gap between the top and bottom programs in the MAC is quite large these days.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/18/2017 11:18:30 PM 
24/7 sports list of Top 10 recruiting classes out of the MAC, CUSA and SBC. As you can see 3 out of the top 4 classes are WMU, Toledo, NIU but then a drop off to Bowling Green who has the 12th best class. The new big market programs are mostly in CUSA and they seem to be having an effect on the smaller market programs in the south that populate the SBC. When I see WKU, App St up there they have good recent history. Georgia St. is getting the upper hand against Georgia Southern the smaller market school.

Highest 10
Western Mich. 156.08
Western Ky. 152.07
Toledo 150.37
Northern Ill. 141.63
Louisiana Tech 133.77
Florida Int. 132.66
UT-San Antonio 131.41
Southern Miss. 129.63
Appalachian St. 124.49
Georgia St. 122.96

Average Rating
CUSA 98.47
MAC 98.08
SBC 86.69

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Buckeye to Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/18/2017 11:42:06 PM 
The real question is going to be how many of these kids sign with their respective school or take it down to February.....
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/19/2017 12:06:31 AM 
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
The real question is going to be how many of these kids sign with their respective school or take it down to February.....


Or how many are qualifiers, and are on the roster come the start of the 2018 season
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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/19/2017 3:02:03 PM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
Recruiting is mostly driven by what conference you play in and the media deal it has. Its also driven by where you can win. All of these new southern schools in conferences without a TV deal are competing among themselves for the same players driving down their competitive level compared to the top programs in the conference. The G5 is becoming top heavy with 2-3 serious programs per conference. For how many years now has it been Toledo, NIU, Ohio consistent factors in the MAC with BG/CMU/WMU often in the mix? The talent gap between the top and bottom programs in the MAC is quite large these days.


There’s a lot of things to digest in these statements. I have some questions.
What are details of each conferences TV contract?

As far as driven by where you can win, Ohio was a place where you mostly couldn’t win, are there many other similar places without winning tradition where you can win? ( say like at FAU this year)

Is the G-5 any different than the power conferences in regards to “serious” programs in the conference? I tend to think coaching changes and “home-run” type players make a lot of difference year to year in the G-5 more than in the power 5, and “non serious” programs break thru more so than the power conferences.

Hasn’t the talent level between top of bottom of the MAC always been large? Seems to me that right now the level is more balanced ( with Akron, Buffalo and more significantly Eastern being pretty competitive with the league overall). Granted, the top teams are kicking some butt, but what’s different?
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/20/2017 6:56:43 AM 
colobobcat66 wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
Recruiting is mostly driven by what conference you play in and the media deal it has. Its also driven by where you can win. All of these new southern schools in conferences without a TV deal are competing among themselves for the same players driving down their competitive level compared to the top programs in the conference. The G5 is becoming top heavy with 2-3 serious programs per conference. For how many years now has it been Toledo, NIU, Ohio consistent factors in the MAC with BG/CMU/WMU often in the mix? The talent gap between the top and bottom programs in the MAC is quite large these days.


There’s a lot of things to digest in these statements. I have some questions.
What are details of each conferences TV contract?

As far as driven by where you can win, Ohio was a place where you mostly couldn’t win, are there many other similar places without winning tradition where you can win? ( say like at FAU this year)

Is the G-5 any different than the power conferences in regards to “serious” programs in the conference? I tend to think coaching changes and “home-run” type players make a lot of difference year to year in the G-5 more than in the power 5, and “non serious” programs break thru more so than the power conferences.

Hasn’t the talent level between top of bottom of the MAC always been large? Seems to me that right now the level is more balanced ( with Akron, Buffalo and more significantly Eastern being pretty competitive with the league overall). Granted, the top teams are kicking some butt, but what’s different?


I can't answer all of these questions in one post. The G5 you have to remember isn't getting home-run 4 and 5 star players. In other words there isn't this magical one recruit that comes along rather programs are built on 2 and 3 star guys who are solid FBS types. Its more dependent on making a great hire that can put a culture into a program, then start winning some games. Winning then leads to tradition. Tradition is not so much what people think it is something that stretches back 100 years. Tradition is more what the program has done the last 5-10 seasons, recent historical track records. That is how Appalachian State has become a place, they started to take off after a lot of FCS programs moved up in the late 90's, won some national championships ect and its carried over to the Sun Belt. The new FBS programs are adding competition to the bottom not the top of the G5, driving down recruiting of existing programs in the south which is turn is leading to a big talent gap from the top to bottom. Its affecting the MAC some at the bottom and that is why I'm saying the talent gap between Toledo/NIU level and Kent/Ball St level is larger than what it probably has ever been before. The bottom is falling out of conferences in the G5 but its not impacting the MAC as much as other conferences because of its own regional talent base.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/20/2017 11:07:33 AM 
colobobcat66 wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
Recruiting is mostly driven by what conference you play in and the media deal it has. Its also driven by where you can win. All of these new southern schools in conferences without a TV deal are competing among themselves for the same players driving down their competitive level compared to the top programs in the conference. The G5 is becoming top heavy with 2-3 serious programs per conference. For how many years now has it been Toledo, NIU, Ohio consistent factors in the MAC with BG/CMU/WMU often in the mix? The talent gap between the top and bottom programs in the MAC is quite large these days.





Hasn’t the talent level between top of bottom of the MAC always been large? Seems to me that right now the level is more balanced ( with Akron, Buffalo and more significantly Eastern being pretty competitive with the league overall). Granted, the top teams are kicking some butt, but what’s different?



Went all the way back to 2006. Every team in the MAC except Central, OU, Toledo, and Western has finished dead last at least once. I would agree that the gap between the top and bottom over this time period isn't that big. Ball State is just bad right now but as recently as 2011 to 2013 they went 25 - 13.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/20/2017 11:09:03 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:

Ball State is just bad right now but as recently as 2011 to 2013 they went 25 - 13.



I believe that would have been under future Michigan and Tennessee (interim) head coach Brady Hoke (hahahahaha)
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/20/2017 11:43:33 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
Recruiting is mostly driven by what conference you play in and the media deal it has. Its also driven by where you can win. All of these new southern schools in conferences without a TV deal are competing among themselves for the same players driving down their competitive level compared to the top programs in the conference. The G5 is becoming top heavy with 2-3 serious programs per conference. For how many years now has it been Toledo, NIU, Ohio consistent factors in the MAC with BG/CMU/WMU often in the mix? The talent gap between the top and bottom programs in the MAC is quite large these days.


Hasn’t the talent level between top of bottom of the MAC always been large? Seems to me that right now the level is more balanced ( with Akron, Buffalo and more significantly Eastern being pretty competitive with the league overall). Granted, the top teams are kicking some butt, but what’s different?



Went all the way back to 2006. Every team in the MAC except Central, OU, Toledo, and Western has finished dead last at least once. I would agree that the gap between the top and bottom over this time period isn't that big. Ball State is just bad right now but as recently as 2011 to 2013 they went 25 - 13.



Alan compare the talent level of Toledo 2017 with Kent 2017 and unit by unit there is a lot more talent at Toledo. Its not just a RB here and a WR there anymore that creates separation in the MAC in any given season. That doesn't mean that Toledo has so much talent it couldn't lose to Kent St because in this day in age if you don't show up prepared you can lose. Ohio St was dropped big by Iowa this year as an example.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 8:00:41 AM 
247 ranks Ohio's class #108.

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/CompositeTeamR...

MAC rankings:

63. WMU
66. Toledo
79. NIU
85. BG
101. BSU
106. EMU
108. Ohio
111. CMU
115. Miami
124. Akron
130. Buffalo
132. Kent

Lots of factors in this ranking. Especially the lower you get the total number of recruits seems to matter.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 8:19:23 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:
247 ranks Ohio's class #108.

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/CompositeTeamR...

MAC rankings:

63. WMU
66. Toledo
79. NIU
85. BG
101. BSU
106. EMU
108. Ohio
111. CMU
115. Miami
124. Akron
130. Buffalo
132. Kent

Lots of factors in this ranking. Especially the lower you get the total number of recruits seems to matter.


Should bode well for another run at a MAC east title.
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ou79
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 8:23:30 AM 
WMU signed 1 four star, 17 three star and 2 two star players. We managed a couple 3 star, numerous 2 star, at least 1 one star and even a few no star players. No offense to the incoming class but after 13+ years this is what our staff gets? BTW, we ranked No. 108 this year nationally, No. 103 last year and No. 115 in 2016. Really impressive!

Last Edited: 12/21/2017 8:26:28 AM by ou79
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 8:42:14 AM 
Stagnation must not be an inspirational story to 18 yr olds. We're #108, we're #108!

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 8:56:29 AM 
There are a variety of takes to this info. If you believe 247Sports is the gospel, and what they say is absolute, then yes, this demonstrates Ohio recruiting is bad. However, it also would indicate that Ohio's ability to "coach-up" players must be pretty darn good.

On the other hand, if 247Sports is only semi-accurate, and their degree of inaccuracy is consistent, then this class must be much better than advertised.

Or, 247Sports is just flat wrong--maybe increasingly wrong as you move lower on the list. Therefore, this "ranking" is practically meaningless.

Maybe there are other takes, but I'm not going to get too riled up about this report.

Last Edited: 12/21/2017 9:24:28 AM by Robert Fox
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 9:05:06 AM 
FWIW, Rivals has a list where you can see the Top 100. Not sure if that is subscription based to see the whole thing, but Ohio is not in the Top 100. Their rankings for other MAC schools in the Top 100 are pretty similar to 247.

ESPN has a Top 50, but you also need a subscription.
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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 9:24:17 AM 
It seems obvious that this years signees have fewer P-5 offers than last year. It also seems to me to have fewer D-1 offers per player, but I haven’t calculated that yet.
I think last years class was maybe the best ever for Frank, this year not so much. But the only thing that counts is how it correlates to important wins.

Update:
2017- 21 recruits-12 P-5 offers(7 players)-89 total D-1 offers-4.2 ave.
2018-19 recruits—3P-5 offers(3players)-55 total D-1 offers-2.9 ave.
FWIW This is from Ted’s Bobcat Attack Recruiting Summary. Except Baker uses 247 sports

Last Edited: 12/21/2017 10:01:48 AM by colobobcat66
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 9:53:59 AM 
bobcat695 wrote:
Stagnation must not be an inspirational story to 18 yr olds. We're #108, we're #108!


That can't be, can it? I mean the MPF was supposed to bolster recruiting. (Confession: Dubious though I was, I contributed.) I remember debating the MPF's supposed merits with Jim Schaus. Is there evidence that it has appreciably strengthened recruiting?

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 10:37:45 AM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
bobcat695 wrote:
Stagnation must not be an inspirational story to 18 yr olds. We're #108, we're #108!


That can't be, can it? I mean the MPF was supposed to bolster recruiting. (Confession: Dubious though I was, I contributed.) I remember debating the MPF's supposed merits with Jim Schaus. Is there evidence that it has appreciably strengthened recruiting?


I think it definitely has an impact. How much is what I'd like to know also. Think of it like this: the MPF at least gets us in the discussion for certain recruits. It has to, right? But winning the recruit over takes more than not practicing in the cold.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 12:00:26 PM 
I don't know about football,but the IPF does seem to be a big plus in recruiting for other sports.

When my wife and I were out at O.U. in the fall,they were having some type of softball "tournament" at the IPF.

The girl handling admission was an O.U. Softball player.

She told us the IPF really impresses potential recruits and events like the one they were having,provides even more exposure for O.U.
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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 1:01:44 PM 
Without the indoor facility, Ohio would be getting far fewer quality recruits than they are getting now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is greatly uninformed.
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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 1:17:12 PM 
ou79 wrote:
WMU signed 1 four star, 17 three star and 2 two star players. We managed a couple 3 star, numerous 2 star, at least 1 one star and even a few no star players. No offense to the incoming class but after 13+ years this is what our staff gets? BTW, we ranked No. 108 this year nationally, No. 103 last year and No. 115 in 2016. Really impressive!


How many times does the "ranking" system need to be explained?? It doesn't mean jack. Whenever you use that as an argument on our recruiting prowess, or lack there of, you are saying "DUH". It seems no one is capable of seeing this program through the eyes of a recruit. A lot of you seem to think we should be landing the best rated recruits on the market, blowing out our competition, and winning championships... Why? Because we have a pretty campus? Recruits dont give a damn about how passionately you love Ohio university. They care about fancy stadiums and winning pedigree's and new team amenities. I'm sorry, but I find it really amusing that some of you think these kids should be flocking to Athens to play for the Bobcats.
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ou79
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 2:23:13 PM 
I did not say anything about how beautiful our campus is. What I did say is that after 13+ years our staff apparently cannot recruit a class that on paper holds a candle to either WMU, Toledo or NIU. Heck, even BG's class is ranked way better than ours. And as someone else pointed out, very few P-5 teams offered these guys anything. Finally, again after 13+ years I do expect our staff to win MACCs as well as Bowl games.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/21/2017 6:56:43 PM 
For what it is worth, Frank has made it clear on several ocassions that he and his staff pay absolutely no attention to these ratings. He said they have their own rating system, and that’s what guides their recruiting decisions.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Recruiting challenge
   Posted: 12/22/2017 8:30:20 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
For what it is worth, Frank has made it clear on several ocassions that he and his staff pay absolutely no attention to these ratings. He said they have their own rating system, and that’s what guides their recruiting decisions.


I think that's coachspeak more than anything. I bet other coaches say the same thing. And I bet they and other staffs do have their own rating system. But it's kinda hard for them as a staff to not pay attention to these ratings at all. It's so in your face nowadays.

Last Edited: 12/22/2017 8:31:11 AM by GoCats105
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