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What happens next? Back to Top colobobcat66 General User Member Since: 9/1/2006 Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO Post Count: 4,463 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 8:47:42 AM  Kent will jump in with $350k for their guy. Ohio will give Frank a 35 dollar raise. No surprise that even head coaches are leaving the MAC for coordinator jobs with overall salaries so low in the MAC. Overall the MAC is a money losing proposition, just ask the students paying the fees to support sports. No wonder they are not excited about attending any more. See thread about ozone apathy. I love college football, but the MAC model can’t keep up with where the sport is going, I’m afraid. Back to Top Buckeye to Bobcat General User Member Since: 9/10/2013 Post Count: 1,803 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 9:44:45 AM  Simple: Toledo will regret the pay raise once they realize that the new tax laws on donations dries up similarly to the Country Club approach back in the late 80's early 90's when that no longer was deductible. I think we're going to see our first version of a market correction in a long time with ticketing and development economics. At this point, it's going to come down to who simply want to win. Back to Top Deciduous Forest Cat General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Ohio Post Count: 4,411 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 4:14:27 PM  Alan Swank wrote: Toledo just signed their coach through 2013 starting at $1.1 million this coming year. Lester is at $800,000. What happens next? I'll tell you what happens next. Candle still signs with a p5 school within 12 months. Back to Top TWT General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 5,105 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 5:22:18 PM  Frank is on a year to year contract. For those who want him fired for his 8-4 three peat need to realize that Ohio will be committing 5-6 million dollars (5 year contract) to bring the next guy in instead of the 500k per year commitment to Solich ball. Last Edited: 12/16/2017 5:23:35 PM by TWT Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top Mark Lembright '85 General User Member Since: 8/22/2010 Location: Highland Heights, OH Post Count: 2,460 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 6:12:05 PM  Uncle Wes wrote: Frank is on a year to year contract. For those who want him fired for his 8-4 three peat need to realize that Ohio will be committing 5-6 million dollars (5 year contract) to bring the next guy in instead of the 500k per year commitment to Solich ball. I’m probably wrong as usual, but I think there’s no way in you-know-where Ohio University ever commits $1 million per year to a football coach. 2/3rds of the University are already up in arms about what Solich makes now. Doubling that salary? I don’t see it. Back to Top Bobcat1996 General User Member Since: 1/2/2017 Post Count: 915 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 7:58:44 PM  I agree doubling any salary is crazy these days, but Ohio's AD has proven he will pay for a new coach. Examples are in mens and womens hoops and in the volleyball job for starters. Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,106 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/16/2017 10:27:24 PM  Interesting article from this spring: http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2016/03/50... Back to Top cbus cat fan General User Member Since: 12/2/2011 Post Count: 1,169 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 12:28:02 AM  This is like the dot.com bubble of early 2000. This is not sustainable. We have had threads talking about the decline in college sports attendance, the concussion fears and yet these coaching salaries are rising astronomically. There are even sports in the Cleveland.com link that lose money for their universities. Yet, their coaches make more money than any elected official in the state? While some businesses lose money in the short term to make lots of money in the long term, there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most of these sports. Imagine we all made the type of money that these coaches made and our businesses were losing money without any hope of turning a profit. You know what would happen to us. This is sheer economic madness. Back to Top Deciduous Forest Cat General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Ohio Post Count: 4,411 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 12:39:58 PM  cbus cat fan wrote: This is like the dot.com bubble of early 2000. This is not sustainable. We have had threads talking about the decline in college sports attendance, the concussion fears and yet these coaching salaries are rising astronomically. There are even sports in the Cleveland.com link that lose money for their universities. Yet, their coaches make more money than any elected official in the state? While some businesses lose money in the short term to make lots of money in the long term, there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most of these sports. Imagine we all made the type of money that these coaches made and our businesses were losing money without any hope of turning a profit. You know what would happen to us. This is sheer economic madness. You mean like if we were the ceo of a large corporation that loses money? My guess is we get a $20 million golden parachute. Back to Top cbus cat fan General User Member Since: 12/2/2011 Post Count: 1,169 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 1:42:49 PM  Well if the CEO had dirt on someone, maybe. However, the end result would still be the same; the business would go belly up. These college sports coaching salaries, especially those sports that don't make money (which is essentially every sport except football and basketball) is like a game of Jenga. Eventually down the line some move is going to bring down the whole tower. Back to Top Buckeye to Bobcat General User Member Since: 9/10/2013 Post Count: 1,803 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 1:51:25 PM  cbus cat fan wrote: This is like the dot.com bubble of early 2000. This is not sustainable. We have had threads talking about the decline in college sports attendance, the concussion fears and yet these coaching salaries are rising astronomically. There are even sports in the Cleveland.com link that lose money for their universities. Yet, their coaches make more money than any elected official in the state? While some businesses lose money in the short term to make lots of money in the long term, there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most of these sports. Imagine we all made the type of money that these coaches made and our businesses were losing money without any hope of turning a profit. You know what would happen to us. This is sheer economic madness. +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Back to Top cbus cat fan General User Member Since: 12/2/2011 Post Count: 1,169 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 2:45:03 PM  Buckeye to Bobcat, very interesting. It might well be part of the Jenga analogy I mentioned in my last post. Back to Top Mark Lembright '85 General User Member Since: 8/22/2010 Location: Highland Heights, OH Post Count: 2,460 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 2:56:44 PM  cbus cat fan wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat, very interesting. It might well be part of the Jenga analogy I mentioned in my last post. Given that, maybe Ohio’s lack of spending, or at least over-the-top spending on football seems quite prudent. Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,106 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 4:35:27 PM  Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: cbus cat fan wrote: This is like the dot.com bubble of early 2000. This is not sustainable. We have had threads talking about the decline in college sports attendance, the concussion fears and yet these coaching salaries are rising astronomically. There are even sports in the Cleveland.com link that lose money for their universities. Yet, their coaches make more money than any elected official in the state? While some businesses lose money in the short term to make lots of money in the long term, there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most of these sports. Imagine we all made the type of money that these coaches made and our businesses were losing money without any hope of turning a profit. You know what would happen to us. This is sheer economic madness. +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Huge issue. Let's say you have four platinum and four tower club seats. Required donation to buy those seats is currently $1900 with $1520 deductible. That is going to be a hard sell for many people who won't have $24,000+ to itemize. Back to Top mcbin General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Columbus, OH Post Count: 950 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 6:10:32 PM  Alan Swank wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: cbus cat fan wrote: This is like the dot.com bubble of early 2000. This is not sustainable. We have had threads talking about the decline in college sports attendance, the concussion fears and yet these coaching salaries are rising astronomically. There are even sports in the Cleveland.com link that lose money for their universities. Yet, their coaches make more money than any elected official in the state? While some businesses lose money in the short term to make lots of money in the long term, there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most of these sports. Imagine we all made the type of money that these coaches made and our businesses were losing money without any hope of turning a profit. You know what would happen to us. This is sheer economic madness. +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Huge issue. Let's say you have four platinum and four tower club seats. Required donation to buy those seats is currently $1900 with $1520 deductible. That is going to be a hard sell for many people who won't have $24,000+ to itemize. Some schools are letting you give 2018 donations in 2017 to at least elude for one year. Haven't heard anything from Ohio, yet. There are a number of articles like this one out there: http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/ar... Back to Top Buckeye to Bobcat General User Member Since: 9/10/2013 Post Count: 1,803 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/17/2017 7:09:46 PM  mcbin wrote: Alan Swank wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: cbus cat fan wrote: This is like the dot.com bubble of early 2000. This is not sustainable. We have had threads talking about the decline in college sports attendance, the concussion fears and yet these coaching salaries are rising astronomically. There are even sports in the Cleveland.com link that lose money for their universities. Yet, their coaches make more money than any elected official in the state? While some businesses lose money in the short term to make lots of money in the long term, there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most of these sports. Imagine we all made the type of money that these coaches made and our businesses were losing money without any hope of turning a profit. You know what would happen to us. This is sheer economic madness. +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Huge issue. Let's say you have four platinum and four tower club seats. Required donation to buy those seats is currently $1900 with $1520 deductible. That is going to be a hard sell for many people who won't have $24,000+ to itemize. Some schools are letting you give 2018 donations in 2017 to at least elude for one year. Haven't heard anything from Ohio, yet. There are a number of articles like this one out there: http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/ar... That's what a lot of schools are doing. Give by December 31 or else you're at the mercy of the feds. Bad news/good news for us is that it's a cost of doing business. As for the general public, I don't know what to say. As I said it earlier, it's going to be like country clubs. With business no longer able to deduct it, those funds will dry up and in turn create opportunity for me Back to Top mf279801 General User Member Since: 8/6/2010 Location: Newark, DE Post Count: 2,472 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 9:08:18 AM  Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Hot take alert: Good! Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets (or to purchase/improve parking at such events) should never have been deductible! Donations to a university's general fund or directed into various academic, medical, or other "core mission" areas: entirely appropriate to be tax deductible. But money used to purchase football tickets (even if part of that purchase price is labeled "donation" but in actuality goes to the booster club or athletic department), I don't see any reason why that should be seen as a "charitable deduction" item. Back to Top allen General User Member Since: 1/24/2006 Post Count: 4,635 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 9:21:05 AM  We need to innovate. Our Offensive and defensive coordinators need to draw up schemes that best suit our talent. We have played with Ohio State and led going into the fourth quarter and then we started playing not to loose. Back then, we were tackling and covering. We had some injuries and sports writers have went to the coaches and now we can't tackle to save our lives in big games. We distribute Hall of Fame jackets to respectable players. We need innovation, once we start winning, the money will flow. When we recruit, coaches need to change up their pitch. The need to have individual development plans for each player. They need to use computer simulation to show their growth. The three stars and a few four stars will come if you sell them. Instead we go to the coaches and say Western has 15 verbals and we only have 3 and then we go and get easy wins (no belief or no relentlessness) and when we play WMU and others, they run right past us. Hit the military academies, Boise hit the JUCO's, we should recruit Ohio and continue to expand our national footprint. What we can't do is go to Florida and get a 4,6 and 4.7 40 wide receiver and think that we have done something. We have all-state Ohio WR's that run 4.6 and below that are available. Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,106 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 10:56:01 AM  mf279801 wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Hot take alert: Good! Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets (or to purchase/improve parking at such events) should never have been deductible! Donations to a university's general fund or directed into various academic, medical, or other "core mission" areas: entirely appropriate to be tax deductible. But money used to purchase football tickets (even if part of that purchase price is labeled "donation" but in actuality goes to the booster club or athletic department), I don't see any reason why that should be seen as a "charitable deduction" item. Then for the sake of discussion and to take this one step further, if athletics isn't part of the core mission of the university, then why have them and pay for them with student fees? Would you extend that to the performing arts series? Just curious. Back to Top UpSan Bobcat General User Member Since: 8/30/2005 Location: Upper Sandusky, OH Post Count: 3,800 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 11:46:07 AM  The bottom part of the MAC head coach salary range is about $400,000-$450,000. Buffalo, Akron, Kent State, BG, Ball State and EMU all pay in that range. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries / Alabama has seven assistants who make at least $400,000 http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant Back to Top mf279801 General User Member Since: 8/6/2010 Location: Newark, DE Post Count: 2,472 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 3:21:32 PM  Alan Swank wrote: mf279801 wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Hot take alert: Good! Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets (or to purchase/improve parking at such events) should never have been deductible! Donations to a university's general fund or directed into various academic, medical, or other "core mission" areas: entirely appropriate to be tax deductible. But money used to purchase football tickets (even if part of that purchase price is labeled "donation" but in actuality goes to the booster club or athletic department), I don't see any reason why that should be seen as a "charitable deduction" item. Then for the sake of discussion and to take this one step further, if athletics isn't part of the core mission of the university, then why have them and pay for them with student fees? Would you extend that to the performing arts series? Just curious. That is a good question (I have mixed feelings, doubtless biased by the fact that I do love college football and like college basketball), but not on point to what we were talking about. What I meant here (and I CERTAINLY could have worded it more precisely in my hot take...but hot takes are almost by definition vaguely worded, so its fine) was that if a person is purchasing something, the money spent on it shouldn't count as a donation. Above, I said "Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets...should never have been deductible", and that's what I mean. So let me be clear: if the "donation" is a prerequisite for purchasing the tickets/parking pass, regardless of what unit of the university is getting the money, no part of that "donation" should be tax deductible. In its current form, it exists as a figleaf/tax-dodge to allow the university to charge a higher price for the tickets while somewhat cushioning that price increase by allowing the purchaser to claim some of it as a charitable deduction. Having thought about it more, regardless of whether those dollars are going to the athletic department, the booster club, the general fund, or the history department, if those donations are being given as part of or a requirement for ticket purchase [Ticket purchase price = Face value of ticket + mandatory "donation"] then I have a tough time justifying any sort of charitable deduction for them. And yes, the same applies to performing arts series: if the "donation" is a de facto requirement of ticket purchase it shouldn't be disguised as a donation. That's NOT to say that donations to the performing arts series, the university, or heck, even the athletic department shouldn't be tax deductible, provided that the donation is not a prerequisite for ticket purchase (i.e. the tickets are on sale to the general public for the same price regardless of whether the purchaser has also made a donation). (Note: now on the other hand if preferential ticket access is a perk of being a donor, i.e. such that tickets are offered from highest --> smallest donor (i.e. based on all-time donations, or perhaps the length of time one has been donating, not linked to that particular purchase), before going on general sale, but all tickets sell initially for the same price, I could see a greater case being made for the tax deductibility of the donation. But again, in that scenario, the donation isn't linked to or a requirement of the purchase in the same way as it currently is in practice.) Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,106 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 4:40:53 PM  mf279801 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: mf279801 wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Hot take alert: Good! Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets (or to purchase/improve parking at such events) should never have been deductible! Donations to a university's general fund or directed into various academic, medical, or other "core mission" areas: entirely appropriate to be tax deductible. But money used to purchase football tickets (even if part of that purchase price is labeled "donation" but in actuality goes to the booster club or athletic department), I don't see any reason why that should be seen as a "charitable deduction" item. Then for the sake of discussion and to take this one step further, if athletics isn't part of the core mission of the university, then why have them and pay for them with student fees? Would you extend that to the performing arts series? Just curious. That is a good question (I have mixed feelings, doubtless biased by the fact that I do love college football and like college basketball), but not on point to what we were talking about. What I meant here (and I CERTAINLY could have worded it more precisely in my hot take...but hot takes are almost by definition vaguely worded, so its fine) was that if a person is purchasing something, the money spent on it shouldn't count as a donation. Above, I said "Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets...should never have been deductible", and that's what I mean. So let me be clear: if the "donation" is a prerequisite for purchasing the tickets/parking pass, regardless of what unit of the university is getting the money, no part of that "donation" should be tax deductible. In its current form, it exists as a figleaf/tax-dodge to allow the university to charge a higher price for the tickets while somewhat cushioning that price increase by allowing the purchaser to claim some of it as a charitable deduction. Having thought about it more, regardless of whether those dollars are going to the athletic department, the booster club, the general fund, or the history department, if those donations are being given as part of or a requirement for ticket purchase [Ticket purchase price = Face value of ticket + mandatory "donation"] then I have a tough time justifying any sort of charitable deduction for them. And yes, the same applies to performing arts series: if the "donation" is a de facto requirement of ticket purchase it shouldn't be disguised as a donation. That's NOT to say that donations to the performing arts series, the university, or heck, even the athletic department shouldn't be tax deductible, provided that the donation is not a prerequisite for ticket purchase (i.e. the tickets are on sale to the general public for the same price regardless of whether the purchaser has also made a donation). (Note: now on the other hand if preferential ticket access is a perk of being a donor, i.e. such that tickets are offered from highest --> smallest donor (i.e. based on all-time donations, or perhaps the length of time one has been donating, not linked to that particular purchase), before going on general sale, but all tickets sell initially for the same price, I could see a greater case being made for the tax deductibility of the donation. But again, in that scenario, the donation isn't linked to or a requirement of the purchase in the same way as it currently is in practice.) Great answer. As for the performing arts series, you don't have to give to buy tickets. Every seat in the house except row E is available to purchase to anyone unless the seat is a season ticket renewal. Back to Top Buckeye to Bobcat General User Member Since: 9/10/2013 Post Count: 1,803 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/18/2017 5:07:45 PM  mf279801 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: mf279801 wrote: Buckeye to Bobcat wrote: +1 Just wait for the new tax bill to come in, colleges I've been talking to are already sh***** bricks about where funds are going to come from since seat donations and such will no longer be deductible Hot take alert: Good! Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets (or to purchase/improve parking at such events) should never have been deductible! Donations to a university's general fund or directed into various academic, medical, or other "core mission" areas: entirely appropriate to be tax deductible. But money used to purchase football tickets (even if part of that purchase price is labeled "donation" but in actuality goes to the booster club or athletic department), I don't see any reason why that should be seen as a "charitable deduction" item. Then for the sake of discussion and to take this one step further, if athletics isn't part of the core mission of the university, then why have them and pay for them with student fees? Would you extend that to the performing arts series? Just curious. That is a good question (I have mixed feelings, doubtless biased by the fact that I do love college football and like college basketball), but not on point to what we were talking about. What I meant here (and I CERTAINLY could have worded it more precisely in my hot take...but hot takes are almost by definition vaguely worded, so its fine) was that if a person is purchasing something, the money spent on it shouldn't count as a donation. Above, I said "Money spent to purchase football/basketball/other tickets...should never have been deductible", and that's what I mean. So let me be clear: if the "donation" is a prerequisite for purchasing the tickets/parking pass, regardless of what unit of the university is getting the money, no part of that "donation" should be tax deductible. In its current form, it exists as a figleaf/tax-dodge to allow the university to charge a higher price for the tickets while somewhat cushioning that price increase by allowing the purchaser to claim some of it as a charitable deduction. Having thought about it more, regardless of whether those dollars are going to the athletic department, the booster club, the general fund, or the history department, if those donations are being given as part of or a requirement for ticket purchase [Ticket purchase price = Face value of ticket + mandatory "donation"] then I have a tough time justifying any sort of charitable deduction for them. And yes, the same applies to performing arts series: if the "donation" is a de facto requirement of ticket purchase it shouldn't be disguised as a donation. That's NOT to say that donations to the performing arts series, the university, or heck, even the athletic department shouldn't be tax deductible, provided that the donation is not a prerequisite for ticket purchase (i.e. the tickets are on sale to the general public for the same price regardless of whether the purchaser has also made a donation). (Note: now on the other hand if preferential ticket access is a perk of being a donor, i.e. such that tickets are offered from highest --> smallest donor (i.e. based on all-time donations, or perhaps the length of time one has been donating, not linked to that particular purchase), before going on general sale, but all tickets sell initially for the same price, I could see a greater case being made for the tax deductibility of the donation. But again, in that scenario, the donation isn't linked to or a requirement of the purchase in the same way as it currently is in practice.) Oh I agree! I have reached the point where why are we funneling so much into college athletics. I will go by a story I was given: The Basketball Story How is it we need a head coach, three assistant coaches, a director of operations, a video coordinator, two graduate assistants and a traveling secretary for 15 players yet the chemistry department has one prof and at most 5 GA's who oversee 200 kids? Are you really telling me that basketball requires that many people to teach people how to put a ball in the hoop? Now think about your football staff and wonder how hard is it to teach someone to score a touchdown in football...... Back to Top mf279801 General User Member Since: 8/6/2010 Location: Newark, DE Post Count: 2,472 Status: Offline     RE: What happens next?    Posted: 12/19/2017 9:24:15 AM  Alan Swank wrote: Great answer. As for the performing arts series, you don't have to give to buy tickets. Every seat in the house except row E is available to purchase to anyone unless the seat is a season ticket renewal. Thanks Re: the performing arts series - Exactly as it should be. (I didn't mean to imply from the scenario that I set up that a donation is necessary to ticket purchase there, just laying out my thoughts on what should disqualify a donation to a performing arts series as tax deductible; namely, it being a requirement of ticket purchase) Back to Top Showing Replies:   1 - 25  of 28 Posts Jump to Page:   1 | 2    Next > View Other 'Ohio Football' Topics                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               WHO'S ONLINE There are 165 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com 165 Guests 0 Registered Users There are no other users looking at this page.

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