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Ohio Football
Topic:  RE: Transfer Portal

Topic:  RE: Transfer Portal
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 8,670

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/14/2022 7:22:13 PM 
M.D.W.S.T wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:

and O'Sean returning with Sieh -- we can be truly dominating on offense.


Is that confirmed? He must be about to finish his PhD at this point.

Sieh is a monster, so I'm a little afraid of him bolting after the bowl game... a lot of people jump into the portal ASAP... but I still think it's a risk.

Wiglusz didn't leave OSU until AFTER the spring game in May.

Bobcat1998 wrote:

I still wish we had Shane Hooks. Dude had 59 catches for 700 yds and 10 scores this year for Prime.


I'm tellin ya... WR U.

Somebody should reach out to Xavier Johnson or Kamryn Babb (SR at OSU) and some of the other fringe guys in the Wigs mold they collect. Would love to steal Blaize Exline (Salem).

Also... Stocksdale (Cincy), Joop Mitchell (Cincy), David Adloph (Dublin)). They've got some decent players who will never see the field.



I agree, who has the NIL money to toss them
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/17/2022 1:48:04 PM 
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,058

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/17/2022 5:42:10 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Chad E Guess D.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/17/2022 6:37:05 PM 
Schlee to UCLA.
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 8,670

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/17/2022 11:07:20 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF



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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,058

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/17/2022 11:33:40 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
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Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 12:04:27 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.



Well in the case of Texas Tech every player must agree to so many hours of community service and appearances in the community. Thatís 110% legal, they all have obligations they must meet with their physical presence.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,058

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 10:02:59 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.



Well in the case of Texas Tech every player must agree to so many hours of community service and appearances in the community. Thatís 110% legal, they all have obligations they must meet with their physical presence.


That's all well and good, but I don't see how it has anything to do with Name, Image and Likeness. It sounds like they are getting paid for work, even if it's charity work. I think we've got a slippery slope here.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Pete Chouteau
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Member Since: 11/17/2004
Location: The Sad Man on the Right
Post Count: 1,560

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 11:07:52 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.



Well in the case of Texas Tech every player must agree to so many hours of community service and appearances in the community. Thatís 110% legal, they all have obligations they must meet with their physical presence.


That's all well and good, but I don't see how it has anything to do with Name, Image and Likeness. It sounds like they are getting paid for work, even if it's charity work. I think we've got a slippery slope here.


NO! WAY!
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 8,670

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 11:46:04 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.



Well in the case of Texas Tech every player must agree to so many hours of community service and appearances in the community. Thatís 110% legal, they all have obligations they must meet with their physical presence.


That's all well and good, but I don't see how it has anything to do with Name, Image and Likeness. It sounds like they are getting paid for work, even if it's charity work. I think we've got a slippery slope here.



Talk to the politicians, because NIL and it's process is codified in law in 32 current states, with more coming on line at the 1st of the year. What that means is that in those states that NIL is law, the NCAA is not able to regulate anything to do with NIL.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,058

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 12:41:44 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.



Well in the case of Texas Tech every player must agree to so many hours of community service and appearances in the community. Thatís 110% legal, they all have obligations they must meet with their physical presence.


That's all well and good, but I don't see how it has anything to do with Name, Image and Likeness. It sounds like they are getting paid for work, even if it's charity work. I think we've got a slippery slope here.



Talk to the politicians, because NIL and it's process is codified in law in 32 current states, with more coming on line at the 1st of the year. What that means is that in those states that NIL is law, the NCAA is not able to regulate anything to do with NIL.


Don't those laws actually specify that NIL money actually has to be for NIL?


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 8,670

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 2:10:28 PM 
OCF, showing up and contributing to a cause is NIL. Whatís the difference in that or sitting at a mall for 5 hours signing cards, photos and posters? You presence is your image and your name associated with the cause.

I guess maybe I should ask you, what do you see as Name, Image, Likeness? I mean when BA signed our player last years it was for them to promote the BA brand. Thatís doing work.

Last Edited: 12/18/2022 2:12:03 PM by BillyTheCat

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M.D.W.S.T
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Post Count: 419

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/18/2022 7:47:44 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
One thing that will be interesting, is take a place that is giving every player some decent cash, the player buried on the bench has a decision to make, transfer down, play and forefit that kind of money.


Serious question: how does a player sitting the bench earn NIL. What company wants to pay him the use of his name, image or likeness? If they are paying him for anything else, it's not NIL.


Take Texas, every offensive linemen gets $50k

At Texas Tech every scholarship football player will get $25k, as well as 20 walk-oneís for a total of 105 athletes getting $25k.

Any other questions OCF


Yes, how is this justified under NIL? It doesn't seem like a NIL payment but as almost a stipend or salary. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of NIL.



Well in the case of Texas Tech every player must agree to so many hours of community
service and appearances in the community. Thatís 110% legal, they all have obligations they must meet with their physical presence.


That's all well and good, but I don't see how it has anything to do with Name, Image and Likeness. It sounds like they are getting paid for work, even if it's charity work. I think we've got a slippery slope here.



Talk to the politicians, because NIL and it's process is codified in law in 32 current states, with more coming on line at the 1st of the year. What that means is that in those states that NIL is law, the NCAA is not able to regulate anything to do with NIL.


Don't those laws actually specify that NIL money actually has to be for NIL?


UTSA basically said theyíre setting up a GoFundMe to bring back their QB for a 7th year.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,058

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 12:11:30 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OCF, showing up and contributing to a cause is NIL. Whatís the difference in that or sitting at a mall for 5 hours signing cards, photos and posters? You presence is your image and your name associated with the cause.

I guess maybe I should ask you, what do you see as Name, Image, Likeness? I mean when BA signed our player last years it was for them to promote the BA brand. Thatís doing work.


I thought that NIL was given to a player on the basis of his or her allowing their name, image or likeness to be used in the company's advertising or in some public way. Showing up for a job is an entirely different thing. That's being paid for work and, hence, you are an employee of the company, organization, or whatever. If that's NIL, than it's not much different from the university employing them as athletes, which is fielding a pro team. This seems to me like a slippery slope that we are already slipping down.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 1:17:08 PM 
They are not showing up for a job, they are doing community service. Again, showing up at a car dealership to sign autographs is also "work". if this was illegal you dont think someone would be in troible by now with the law?

And they are all independent contractors and get 1099ís.

Last Edited: 12/19/2022 1:18:09 PM by BillyTheCat

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 1:38:03 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
They are not showing up for a job, they are doing community service. Again, showing up at a car dealership to sign autographs is also "work". if this was illegal you dont think someone would be in troible by now with the law?

And they are all independent contractors and get 1099ís.


Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Post Count: 2,669

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 1:55:43 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?



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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 3:03:01 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?





If you are being paid for doing some specific action, like the community service mentioned above, you are being paid for doing a job. I don't know about the other kinds of activies you cite. If they are being paid soley because the entity mentioned is getting some advertising or sales benefit because of their mere presence, I suppose it fits under a broad definition of NIL.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 5:40:02 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Being paid for community service makes it a job.


Actually showing up to promote a cause via doing community service makes it very easy and legal to categorize it as a promotional endeavor. e.g., showing up at a animal shelter to give time during an "adopt a dog" event - especially since said appearance would also be promoted - "come meet XXX this weekend and adopt a dog for your family." They are being compensated for helping promote the program - NIL sweet spot.

Last Edited: 12/19/2022 5:46:43 PM by cc-cat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 8:04:42 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?



If you are being paid for doing some specific action, like the community service mentioned above, you are being paid for doing a job. I don't know about the other kinds of activies you cite. If they are being paid soley because the entity mentioned is getting some advertising or sales benefit because of their mere presence, I suppose it fits under a broad definition of NIL.


The other examples I cited are examples of people who are asked to do work at an event because of their celebrity, which is effectively a synonym for Name, Image, and likeness.

All of those things are actions, and "getting paid to do some specific action" is not how the department of labor determines employment. It's a much more thorough assessment. Why do you think this is different?
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 9:46:28 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?





Thank you! Iím glad someone understands this.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 9:47:20 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Being paid for community service makes it a job.


Actually showing up to promote a cause via doing community service makes it very easy and legal to categorize it as a promotional endeavor. e.g., showing up at a animal shelter to give time during an "adopt a dog" event - especially since said appearance would also be promoted - "come meet XXX this weekend and adopt a dog for your family." They are being compensated for helping promote the program - NIL sweet spot.


BOOM!
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/19/2022 9:48:29 PM 
OCF, itís probably time to set the clock on your VCR and yell at yourself to get off your lawn.
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,058

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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/20/2022 11:17:18 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?



If you are being paid for doing some specific action, like the community service mentioned above, you are being paid for doing a job. I don't know about the other kinds of activies you cite. If they are being paid soley because the entity mentioned is getting some advertising or sales benefit because of their mere presence, I suppose it fits under a broad definition of NIL.


The other examples I cited are examples of people who are asked to do work at an event because of their celebrity, which is effectively a synonym for Name, Image, and likeness.

All of those things are actions, and "getting paid to do some specific action" is not how the department of labor determines employment. It's a much more thorough assessment. Why do you think this is different?


But, the "actions" in those cases seem to invovle being paid for their "advertising or sales beneift," not for performing a particular task. Showing up for a "job" at a homeless shelter and placing cans of food on shelves and sweeping the floor, etc., is not being paid for their NIL but for a job that's being performed. These are not the same thing. I don't think the Department of Labor would disagree, though I'm not sure their definition, whatever it is, will really be all that salient to any future legal challenges.

Last Edited: 12/20/2022 2:51:27 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Transfer Portal
   Posted: 12/20/2022 1:07:55 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.


I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?



If you are being paid for doing some specific action, like the community service mentioned above, you are being paid for doing a job. I don't know about the other kinds of activies you cite. If they are being paid soley because the entity mentioned is getting some advertising or sales benefit because of their mere presence, I suppose it fits under a broad definition of NIL.


The other examples I cited are examples of people who are asked to do work at an event because of their celebrity, which is effectively a synonym for Name, Image, and likeness.

All of those things are actions, and "getting paid to do some specific action" is not how the department of labor determines employment. It's a much more thorough assessment. Why do you think this is different?


But, the "actions" in those cases seem to invovle being paid for their "advertising or sales beneift," not for performing a particular task. Showing up for a "job" at a homeless shelter and placing cans of food on a shelves and sweeping the floor, etc., is not being paid for their NIL but for a job that's being performed. These are not the same thing. I don't think the Department of Labor would disagree, thought I'm not sure their definition, whatever it is, will really be all that salient to any future legal challenges.


Why donít you file a complaint then? Help these poor kids out and be their advocate to right the wrongs that these attorneys who are setting these deals up are obviously not up on the law.
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