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Topic:  RE: Extend Tim Albin

Topic:  RE: Extend Tim Albin
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/8/2023 8:25:30 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . .Are you saying that if we're ranked third in the league academically, our athletic budget should always be in the top 3?

Curious what one has to do with the other?



No, I'm just saying that I think there should be rough correlation between the two. Nationally, with the exception of the Ivy League, you'll find most, but not all, of the best academic institutions of any size at all also have good athletic budgets. Even Northwestern in the B1G and Vanderbilt in the SEC appear to have competitive budgets, even though as private schools they don't share that information. And, only the top dozen or so actually make money from their athletic programs.

Pat Fitzgerald at Northwest in 2021 was paid $5.7 million, which is about in the middle of the pack in the B1G. Northwestern probably the most prestigious academic institution in the B1G, or least they think they are. They pay accordingly, not inline with their athletic prowess.

Again, I'm not saying that there should be a 1.00 correlation, just something in the general ballpark.

If you remember I was responding to a poster who feels that we should not pay a football or basketball coach more than a dean. He probably meant and Arts & Science dean not an engineering or medical school dean.



Northwestern, because of their affiliation with the big 20, has a built-in cash stream that far exceeds the relative quality of their athletic programs. Their situation, even on a different scale, is nothing like ours.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/8/2023 9:40:25 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . .Are you saying that if we're ranked third in the league academically, our athletic budget should always be in the top 3?

Curious what one has to do with the other?



No, I'm just saying that I think there should be rough correlation between the two. Nationally, with the exception of the Ivy League, you'll find most, but not all, of the best academic institutions of any size at all also have good athletic budgets. Even Northwestern in the B1G and Vanderbilt in the SEC appear to have competitive budgets, even though as private schools they don't share that information. And, only the top dozen or so actually make money from their athletic programs.

Pat Fitzgerald at Northwest in 2021 was paid $5.7 million, which is about in the middle of the pack in the B1G. Northwestern probably the most prestigious academic institution in the B1G, or least they think they are. They pay accordingly, not inline with their athletic prowess.

Again, I'm not saying that there should be a 1.00 correlation, just something in the general ballpark.

If you remember I was responding to a poster who feels that we should not pay a football or basketball coach more than a dean. He probably meant and Arts & Science dean not an engineering or medical school dean.



Ah, I see. Given Vanderbilt and Northwestern's conferences and revenue share they receive, I'm not sure I understand their relevance.

Also, not sure I'm understanding the connection between academics and athletic budget. You've already excepted the entire Ivy League, but there are also a bunch of other outliers. MIT is a top national university with a smaller athletic budget than the Ivys. Likewise University of Chicago, NYU, Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Wash U in St. Louis, Rice, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Tufts, BU, William & Mary, Case Western, Rochester and so on.

There are also several highly rated state systems that have many highly rated schools with low athletic investment. Several of the California state schools are very highly ranked, but only UCLA and Cal Berkeley have big athletic budgets. Stony Brook, Binghamton, and Buffalo are all top 100 nationally, as is Delaware. Basically the entire New Jersey system outranks OU, and only Rutgers spends on Athletics.

By US News Rankings, our most immediate piers are Adelphi, Belmont, Missouri- Rolla, Montclair State, Oklahoma State, Stockton University, Touro, SUNY Albany, Valpo and UMass Lowell. Given that list, it seems like we're overpaying for athletics, no? Outside of Oklahoma State, our athletic budget is way bigger than that of our immediate peers.

But maybe I'm missing your point.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/8/2023 10:03:19 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
Also, not sure I'm understanding the connection between academics and athletic budget. You've already excepted the entire Ivy League, but there are also a bunch of other outliers. MIT is a top national university with a smaller athletic budget than the Ivys. Likewise University of Chicago, NYU, Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Wash U in St. Louis, Rice, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Tufts, BU, William & Mary, Case Western, Rochester and so on.

There are also several highly rated state systems that have many highly rated schools with low athletic investment. Several of the California state schools are very highly ranked, but only UCLA and Cal Berkeley have big athletic budgets. Stony Brook, Binghamton, and Buffalo are all top 100 nationally, as is Delaware. Basically the entire New Jersey system outranks OU, and only Rutgers spends on Athletics.

By US News Rankings, our most immediate piers are Adelphi, Belmont, Missouri- Rolla, Montclair State, Oklahoma State, Stockton University, Touro, SUNY Albany, Valpo and UMass Lowell. Given that list, it seems like we're overpaying for athletics, no? Outside of Oklahoma State, our athletic budget is way bigger than that of our immediate peers.

But maybe I'm missing your point.

What a blast down memory lane that was. Fifty years ago, those were "the schools". The only "football school" that I recall also being a credible academic institution was Michigan. Most of the others were just big state institutions with questionable academics. But, a lot can change in a generation. Football, and the general giving that goes along with it, is no doubt a part of the reason for the academic rise of the state schools. I'm sure that the ability of state schools to secure research funding is another part of it.

Regardless of how it has happened, it's clear that there has been a massive shift, and the list of Universities with the biggest endowments includes quite a lot of former "football schools", and the list of top academic universities does, as well.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 12:26:20 AM 
The MAC is a college town FBS conference in the Midwest and Athens is the top of the heap. Different perspectives have other MAC schools ranked higher but overall Ohio has the best combination. I know Schaus was convinced Ohio was the best basketball school in the MAC. There is no reason not to aspire to have football at the top of the MAC either.

What has irked me over the years is that when people name 3 schools from the MAC they usually think the Toledo-BG rivalry and Kent State for basketball. It would be great if Ohio was always at the top of the MAC conversation instead of some unspoken boogeyman that is surprisingly better than the general public thinks. Loading up more on facilities might make them take us more seriously. Basketball program is where Xavier was in the 90's losing coaches and players as a hotbed. BPF and more financial commitment there could move it toward becoming a regular NCAA program. One of the immediate problems is the university is going through a presidential transition. The next president hopefully will have a renewed vision for athletics.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 12:42:23 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . . By US News Rankings, our most immediate piers are Adelphi, Belmont, Missouri- Rolla, Montclair State, Oklahoma State, Stockton University, Touro, SUNY Albany, Valpo and UMass Lowell. Given that list, it seems like we're overpaying for athletics, no? Outside of Oklahoma State, our athletic budget is way bigger than that of our immediate peers.

But maybe I'm missing your point.


As you are well aware, I assume, the US News Rankings have been under a lot of criticism by a number of academics for a number of years. The most recent was that several of the top law schools in the nation are now refusing to fill out their questionnaires. Though one story I read indicated that US News was hopeful that they would relent. Nonetheless, I take those rankings with a grain of salt.

I think you did miss my point a little. I'm not saying we should pay what Northwestern and Vanderbilt pay their football coaches. I'm saying relative to the MAC, what we pay a football coach should take into account we are one of the best academic instituions in the MAC, and at least pay as well as Northwestern does relative to the B1G.

I found this list from three years ago that appears more complete than the slightly more recent one I quoted earlier:

Jim Harbaugh, Michigan $7.504
Jeff Brohm, Purdue $6.6
James Franklin, Penn State $5.65
Pat Fitzgerald, Northwestern $5.145
Scott Frost, Nebraska $5.0
Kirk Ferentz, Iowa $4.8
Ryan Day, Ohio State $4.5
Mark Dantonio, Michigan State $4.399
Paul Chryst, Wisconsin $4.15
Lovie Smith, Illinois $4.0
P.J. Fleck, Minnesota $3.6
Mike Locksley, Maryland $2.5
*Chris Ash, Rutgers $2.3
Tom Allen, Indiana $1.805

Obviously these figures aren't accurate today, but the relative positions probably haven't changed a whole lot, with exception of Day, who the last I heard was paid more than Harbaugh. Put that being as it may, out of 14 schools, Northwestern was 4th. With the MAC having 12 schools, maybe a reasonable goal would be for OHIO to never be lower than 2nd or 3rd in the MAC salary ranks.

As an tangential point, addressing the original posters assertation about paying our football coach a dean's salary: The OHIO medical school dean if you add his clinic practice plan money to his base salary probably currently makes more than Albin. So, I might give some weight to the argument that we should pay our coach within 25 percent -- plus or minus -- of the medical school dean's total package.

Let me add that if you look you'll find data saying medical school deans in the U.S. average between $350,000 and $585,000. This is deceptive because this is only base salary. Almost every medical school dean makes a good deal more than these posted figures. For a state school one could find out the total package with an FOIA request, which I haven't done for OU-HCOM. I found one recent report that deans with practice plan oversight averaged about $1.5 million in total compensation. I can tell you from my years of working at the College of Osteopathic Medicine that our medical school dean's total package is considerably above the current published $360,853, perhaps double or more.

Edit: Let me add that a FOIA request for Ken Johnson's total salary might not be a simple one. The University would do its best to hid the practice plan money, and claim it wasn't public funds, which in one way it isn't. However, I'm confident that the Ohio legal system would not buy that argument -- just like the Ohio Supreme Court did not accept the claim a number of years ago by the University of Toledo Foundation that it was a private organization and not subject to the Toledo Blade's FOIA request.

Last Edited: 1/9/2023 12:54:41 AM by OhioCatFan


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 9:04:18 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . . By US News Rankings, our most immediate piers are Adelphi, Belmont, Missouri- Rolla, Montclair State, Oklahoma State, Stockton University, Touro, SUNY Albany, Valpo and UMass Lowell. Given that list, it seems like we're overpaying for athletics, no? Outside of Oklahoma State, our athletic budget is way bigger than that of our immediate peers.

But maybe I'm missing your point.


As you are well aware, I assume, the US News Rankings have been under a lot of criticism by a number of academics for a number of years. The most recent was that several of the top law schools in the nation are now refusing to fill out their questionnaires. Though one story I read indicated that US News was hopeful that they would relent. Nonetheless, I take those rankings with a grain of salt.

I think you did miss my point a little. I'm not saying we should pay what Northwestern and Vanderbilt pay their football coaches. I'm saying relative to the MAC, what we pay a football coach should take into account we are one of the best academic instituions in the MAC, and at least pay as well as Northwestern does relative to the B1G.

I found this list from three years ago that appears more complete than the slightly more recent one I quoted earlier:

Jim Harbaugh, Michigan $7.504
Jeff Brohm, Purdue $6.6
James Franklin, Penn State $5.65
Pat Fitzgerald, Northwestern $5.145
Scott Frost, Nebraska $5.0
Kirk Ferentz, Iowa $4.8
Ryan Day, Ohio State $4.5
Mark Dantonio, Michigan State $4.399
Paul Chryst, Wisconsin $4.15
Lovie Smith, Illinois $4.0
P.J. Fleck, Minnesota $3.6
Mike Locksley, Maryland $2.5
*Chris Ash, Rutgers $2.3
Tom Allen, Indiana $1.805

Obviously these figures aren't accurate today, but the relative positions probably haven't changed a whole lot, with exception of Day, who the last I heard was paid more than Harbaugh. Put that being as it may, out of 14 schools, Northwestern was 4th. With the MAC having 12 schools, maybe a reasonable goal would be for OHIO to never be lower than 2nd or 3rd in the MAC salary ranks.

As an tangential point, addressing the original posters assertation about paying our football coach a dean's salary: The OHIO medical school dean if you add his clinic practice plan money to his base salary probably currently makes more than Albin. So, I might give some weight to the argument that we should pay our coach within 25 percent -- plus or minus -- of the medical school dean's total package.

Let me add that if you look you'll find data saying medical school deans in the U.S. average between $350,000 and $585,000. This is deceptive because this is only base salary. Almost every medical school dean makes a good deal more than these posted figures. For a state school one could find out the total package with an FOIA request, which I haven't done for OU-HCOM. I found one recent report that deans with practice plan oversight averaged about $1.5 million in total compensation. I can tell you from my years of working at the College of Osteopathic Medicine that our medical school dean's total package is considerably above the current published $360,853, perhaps double or more.

Edit: Let me add that a FOIA request for Ken Johnson's total salary might not be a simple one. The University would do its best to hid the practice plan money, and claim it wasn't public funds, which in one way it isn't. However, I'm confident that the Ohio legal system would not buy that argument -- just like the Ohio Supreme Court did not accept the claim a number of years ago by the University of Toledo Foundation that it was a private organization and not subject to the Toledo Blade's FOIA request.


FOIA requests about the medical school dean's pay? I'm lost.

Charity offer still on the table.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 10:31:30 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
...
I'm saying relative to the MAC, what we pay a football coach should take into account we are one of the best academic instituions in the MAC, and at least pay as well as Northwestern does relative to the B1G.
...

Obviously these figures aren't accurate today, but the relative positions probably haven't changed a whole lot, with exception of Day, who the last I heard was paid more than Harbaugh. Put that being as it may, out of 14 schools, Northwestern was 4th. With the MAC having 12 schools, maybe a reasonable goal would be for OHIO to never be lower than 2nd or 3rd in the MAC salary ranks.
...

You lost me. If Ohio pays as well as Northwestern does relative to the B1G, that would imply Ohio should be 3r or 4th in the MAC, not 2d. TA's career record against MAC foes is 10-7 if you include the MACC game loss. Thus, from a performance standpoint, he should be in the upper half as far as pay.

This is what I found on MAC coaches pay, compiles from a variety of sources, so it may not be accurate:

1. Candle, Toledo $1.1
2. Taylor, WMU $850k
3. McElwain, CMU $840k
4. Linguist, Buffalo $675k
5. Hammock, NIU $631k
6. Creighton, EMU $540k
7. Burns, Kent $540k
8. Martin, Miami $533k
9. Albin, Ohio $531k
10. Loeffler, BG $525k
11. Moorhead, Akron $500k
12. Neu, Ball State $453k

Current career Record of the various coaches versus MAC foes, with MACC games listed separately. For coaches with a long tenure, I also give the record for the last two years:
Candle 35-19 .648, 10-6 .625 last two years, 2-0 in championship games
Albin 10-6 .625, 0-1 in championship games
McElwain 18-12 .600, 9-7 .563 last two years, 0-1 in championship games
Martin 37-30 .552, 9-7 .563 last two years, 1-0 in championship games
Linguist 7-9 .436
Hammock 12-18 .400, 8-8 .500 last two years, 1-0 in championship games
Creighton 27-43 .386, 9-7 .563 last two years
Neu 20-34 .370, 7-9 .436 last two years, 1-0 in championship games
Loeffler 9-20 .310, 7-9 .436 last two years
Moorhead 1-7 .125
Taylor 0-0 .000
Burns 0-0 .000

Based on this, I see no reason not to bump Albin to $580k, which would keep him up with inflation, but also move him into the top half of the MAC salaries.

Last Edited: 1/9/2023 11:58:45 AM by L.C.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 10:53:03 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


FOIA requests about the medical school dean's pay? I'm lost. . . .



The poster giacomo said we should pay our coach a dean's salary. I don't think he was thinking about the salaries of all deans. I was sarcastically pointing out that I could maybe be in agreement with him if we talked about the total compensation package of the medical school dean. The only way to find out the total package as it exists today would be via FOIA, and I pointed out that it might require a lawsuit to get it.



"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 11:02:14 AM 
Albin at 531k plus some bonuses and other perks he likely gets from local businesses is a great package given our market and circumstances. I really dont care where he ranks in the MAC. Also, its not a good example to the other faculty that a coach is the highest paid person, especially given our financial situation. Im confident if he leaves we can get a good coach for that kind of money. Id like him to stay, but not at any cost.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 11:28:13 AM 
L.C. wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
...
I'm saying relative to the MAC, what we pay a football coach should take into account we are one of the best academic instituions in the MAC, and at least pay as well as Northwestern does relative to the B1G.
...

Obviously these figures aren't accurate today, but the relative positions probably haven't changed a whole lot, with exception of Day, who the last I heard was paid more than Harbaugh. Put that being as it may, out of 14 schools, Northwestern was 4th. With the MAC having 12 schools, maybe a reasonable goal would be for OHIO to never be lower than 2nd or 3rd in the MAC salary ranks.
...

You lost me. If Ohio pays as well as Northwestern does relative to the B1G, that would imply Ohio should be 3r or 4th in the MAC, not 2d. TA's career record against MAC foes is 10-7 if you include the MACC game loss. Thus, from a performance standpoint, he should be in the upper half as far as pay.

This is what I found on MAC coaches pay, compiles from a variety of sources, so it may not be accurate:

1. Candle, Toledo $1.1
2. Taylor, WMU $850k
3. McElwain, CMU $840k
4. Linguist, Buffalo $675k
5. Hammock, NIU $631k
6. Creighton, EMU $540k
7. Burns, Kent $540k
8. Martin, Miami $533k
9. Albin, Ohio $531k
10. Loeffler, BG $525k
11. Moorhead, Akron $500k
12. Neu, Ball State $453k

Current career Record of the various coaches versus MAC foes, not including MAC games (I may edit this later to add them):
Candle 35-19 .648
Albin 10-6
McElwain 18-12 .600
Martin 37-30 .552
Linguist 7-9 .436
Hammock 12-18 .400
Creighton 27-43 .386
Neu 20-34 .370
Loeffler 9-20 .310
Moorhead 1-7 .125
Taylor 0-0 .000
Burns 0-0 .000

Based on this, I see no reason not to bump Albin to $580k, which would keep him up with inflation, but also move him into the top half of the MAC salaries.


My thinking was that 4/14 = .28 and 3/12 = .25, which are roughly equivalent. Therefore, maybe we should pay our coach somewhere in the neighborhood of the pay of the CMU coach, as per your list. Admittedly, this is kind of alchemy and seat-of-the-pants logic, but there's a lot of that going around today. ;-)


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 11:47:36 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:



The poster giacomo said we should pay our coach a dean's salary. I don't think he was thinking about the salaries of all deans. I was sarcastically pointing out that I could maybe be in agreement with him if we talked about the total compensation package of the medical school dean. The only way to find out the total package as it exists today would be via FOIA, and I pointed out that it might require a lawsuit to get it.




You didn't quote my whole post.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 12:00:25 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
You didn't quote my whole post.

Odd. Not long ago I seem to recall you complaining about people quoting an entire post rather than just the part they were replying about.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 1:47:27 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
You didn't quote my whole post.

Odd. Not long ago I seem to recall you complaining about people quoting an entire post rather than just the part they were replying about.


Yep, and that's still annoying.

I'm just giving OCF sh*t because he made a completely false accusation about something I'd said. I told him I'd make a $1000 donation to the charity of his choice to quote where I'd done so, and shared links to the conversations in question.

He didn't, and the thing he quoted in this thread reiterated the offer. He cut that out of the quote because he's been caught in a lie and won't admit it.

Last Edited: 1/9/2023 1:47:51 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 2:02:13 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Albin at 531k plus some bonuses and other perks he likely gets from local businesses is a great package given our market and circumstances. I really dont care where he ranks in the MAC. Also, its not a good example to the other faculty that a coach is the highest paid person, especially given our financial situation. Im confident if he leaves we can get a good coach for that kind of money. Id like him to stay, but not at any cost.


The university was $35 million in the black last year and signed the paperwork on $200 million of dorm improvements. In addition hosted a record freshman class. That is hardly a poor position particularly with an endowment sailing past a billion dollars.

Personally I don't care what TA will be paid on a new contract but whatever he's paid it won't be enough to prevent him from going somewhere else just a little extra change in his pocket. Reups the buyout if he does decide to go somewhere and that could result in a future windfall for OU.

Last Edited: 1/9/2023 2:55:11 PM by Campus Flow


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 2:48:57 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
You didn't quote my whole post.

Odd. Not long ago I seem to recall you complaining about people quoting an entire post rather than just the part they were replying about.


Yep, and that's still annoying.

I'm just giving OCF sh*t because he made a completely false accusation about something I'd said. I told him I'd make a $1000 donation to the charity of his choice to quote where I'd done so, and shared links to the conversations in question.

He didn't, and the thing he quoted in this thread reiterated the offer. He cut that out of the quote because he's been caught in a lie and won't admit it.


Actually, I cut that part out because I had no idea what your were talking about. I haven't visited that thread since my last post in it. I did a "Mark Forum Read" and continued on to other threads. As I said you know what you said about the Florida law restricting discussion of certain topics in the 3rd and younger grades. You know what kind of speech that was aimed at -- sex education, trangenderism, etc. You know you called me a hypocrite because I claimed to be a First Amendment absolutist but at the same time supported this law. You know that you would not give any credence to my argument that the fact children are in a captive environment in school (due to compulsory attendance laws) and that they are, in fact, children did not make this a deviation from strong First Amendment principles. When you tried to say that you didn't say these things you lost all remaining credibility with me. I had no further desire to discuss the matter with you.


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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 2:58:31 PM 
From the Athens News in 2015, but the ratio is likely similar:

The only university in Ohio to turn a profit on its intercollegiate athletics (ICA) program is Ohio State. Every other university in the state subsidizes its ICA program with student fees collected as part of tuition. OU's $27.3 million ICA program is subsidized with $16.05 million in student fees.

I think some on this board don't understand basic economics. They also think it's somehow prestigious to pay a coach a lot of money. It's a dangerous thing to think we can pay a coach to stay and it will elevate the program to the next level. We can find a good coach for the money he currently makes should he choose to leave for greener pastures.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 3:00:34 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:

As I said you know what you said about the Florida law restricting discussion of certain topics in the 3rd and younger grades.


I know exactly what I said and re-read it just the other day. I then sent you links to it. $1000 to the charity of your choice if you can provide quotes where I said what you claim I did.

OhioCatFan wrote:

You know what kind of speech that was aimed at -- sex education, trangenderism, etc. You know you called me a hypocrite because I claimed to be a First Amendment absolutist but at the same time supported this law.


I simply stated that the law's language was overly vague. You can now see that vagueness in the way school districts are interpreting it.

OhioCatFan wrote:

You know that you would not give any credence to my argument that the fact children are in a captive environment in school (due to compulsory attendance laws) and that they are, in fact, children did not make this a deviation from strong First Amendment principles.


That's not why I think this is a deviation. I think it's a deviation because during the course of our conversation you yourself called this "imperfect". It's all there in the conversation. Your remembrance of it simply isn't accurate and it would be super easy to see if you want to review.

OhioCatFan wrote:

When you tried to say that you didn't say these things you lost all remaining credibility with me. I had no further desire to discuss the matter with you.


It would be super easy to quote me, and worth $1000 to the charity of your choice. And while you "have no idea what I'm talking about" you quoted it and responded to it in the last thread.

It's not my lack of credibility that's on display here, my man. There's a record of our conversation and you could easily provide evidence of what you're saying. You're refusing to, despite the fact that it would be for a good cause. And now you're pretending you don't even know about the offer, despite replying to it last week.

There's no need to muddy another thread with this, but there's a conversation about this in 2 different places. If you decide to pick it up and can provide the evidence you say you can, I'm happy to hold up my end of the bargain.

Last Edited: 1/9/2023 3:01:19 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 5:37:32 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Albin at 531k plus some bonuses and other perks he likely gets from local businesses is a great package given our market and circumstances. I really dont care where he ranks in the MAC. Also, its not a good example to the other faculty that a coach is the highest paid person, especially given our financial situation. Im confident if he leaves we can get a good coach for that kind of money. Id like him to stay, but not at any cost.


Maybe you could start a boycott and not watch any school whos highest paid employee is a coach.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/9/2023 8:55:48 PM 
Do you think its right for a school that doesnt make money on athletics and has more than half of its budget come from student fees, have its coaches be the highest paid on campus?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/10/2023 8:21:45 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Do you think its right for a school that doesnt make money on athletics and has more than half of its budget come from student fees, have its coaches be the highest paid on campus?

I might like to pay my employees minimum wage, but the free market dictates what I have to pay to get good employees, and I can't ignore what the free market dictates. That doesn't mean I have to pay them absolute top dollar, which is good, because, while I pay them what I can afford, they could all go out and find a job that pays them more and/or has better benefits if they looked. Instead, I keep employees (half my employees have been with me for 30 years, and none for less that 10 years) by paying them a fair wage, and by treating them with respect, and making sure they feel appreciated, and maintaining a fun, family-like atmosphere, and treating everyone equally.

All I advocate for TA is for Ohio to do the same thing. Pay him and his staff a fair wage (not to be confused with "top dollar"). Treat them with respect, make sure they feel appreciated, and maintain a fun, family-like small town atmosphere where everyone is treated equally and fairly. Avoid "brinksmanship", and the "what have to done for me recently" mentality, and above all, remove the threat of impending contract termination. Make Athens feel like a home that is safe and secure. Don't wait until TA has another offer to consider before trying to make Athens feel like home; start now.

Let's be honest. If TA has another good year next year, he is very to get a P5 offer. If he does, though, the odds are that it won't be an offer from a school like Ohio State, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, or Florida. Rather it would be more likely to come from a lower tier P5, something like an Iowa State, Kansas, Vanderbilt, Louisville, or Rutgers, and those places tend to be a deathbed for coaches. Regardless of what lower P5 school it is, when a coach moves up from a MAC school, and takes the big bucks, they also are in the frying pan, under intense pressure to win immediately, under intense scrutiny, and intense criticism if they fail. Some coaches are eager to compete, and to jump into the frying pan, but there are also coaches who may love a small town atmosphere where they can live with the family a long time and thrive.

I can't guess what TA will do, if confronted with that choice. All I can say is that Ohio should at least do their best to treat him fairly, and then we will see what happens.

Last Edited: 1/10/2023 8:24:00 AM by L.C.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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DC_United47
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/10/2023 8:40:12 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Albin at 531k plus some bonuses and other perks he likely gets from local businesses is a great package given our market and circumstances. I really dont care where he ranks in the MAC. Also, its not a good example to the other faculty that a coach is the highest paid person, especially given our financial situation. Im confident if he leaves we can get a good coach for that kind of money. Id like him to stay, but not at any cost.


Im finding this back and forth and back and forth really enjoyable. But Im stuck laughing out loud imagining the perks he might get from local businesses..

-Guac at Chipotle is not extra for TA
-50 cent beer night is half off for Coach
-Extra wienee at Larrys Dog Shack on the house

Any others Im missing?





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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/10/2023 9:23:59 AM 
What we are paying him is not anywhere close to minimum wage. He's one of the top paid people at Ohio University. We can dictate what we are willing to pay for the position.

You might laugh at local perks, but they do exist. I have a client who is a head basketball coach in a similar league as the MAC. In the past at other jobs he and his wife would get a free car lease from a local dealership and he received a 5k chit at a local men's clothing store. That kind of stuff was has been going on forever. Maybe not at the P5 because they make too much, but at smaller schools.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/10/2023 10:26:18 AM 
giacomo wrote:
What we are paying him is not anywhere close to minimum wage. He's one of the top paid people at Ohio University. We can dictate what we are willing to pay for the position.
...

In this case, consider "minimum wage" to refer to "minimum possible wage", though you might be surprised how much the annual pay would be even at the minimum legal wage, once you factor in the hours they put in. I would guess that would get you to $35-40k a year. In any case, yes, Ohio could decide that they won't pay over, say, $200k for a coach, and they can probably find a someone willing to take the job for that. For some high school coach, it would be a big step up in pay. Interestingly, though, no G5 school I am aware of has taken that approach. I wonder why not?

As far as those local perks for coaches, my impression is that they are often tied to promotions/advertising. For example, Danny Nee used to call plays on the court by signalling with his tie, and at Nebraska, worked out a deal with a menswear store allowing the store to sell "Danny Nee Ties", and other menswear, in return for which, Nee received a stipend of some kind for menswear.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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M.D.W.S.T
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/10/2023 11:40:30 AM 
L.C. wrote:


This is what I found on MAC coaches pay, compiles from a variety of sources, so it may not be accurate:

1. Candle, Toledo $1.1
2. Taylor, WMU $850k
3. McElwain, CMU $840k
4. Linguist, Buffalo $675k
5. Hammock, NIU $631k
6. Creighton, EMU $540k
7. Burns, Kent $540k
8. Martin, Miami $533k
9. Albin, Ohio $531k
10. Loeffler, BG $525k
11. Moorhead, Akron $500k
12. Neu, Ball State $453k


Based on this, I see no reason not to bump Albin to $580k, which would keep him up with inflation, but also move him into the top half of the MAC salaries.


Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?


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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Extend Tim Albin
   Posted: 1/10/2023 3:57:41 PM 
Albin makes more than our president, who is at 489k. He is doing fine and if wants to go, fine.
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