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Topic:  Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?

Topic:  Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 12:33:54 AM 
So, if athletes at Ohio State are employees, then athletes at Ohio Wesleyan and Tiffin and so on will also be considered employees.

At Tiffin, for example, more than half of all students are student athletes. At Ohio Wesleyan, itís 39%. Mt. Union 50%. Heck, even Oberlin is 20%. Oberlin! 🎻

(OU, in comparison, is 2.5%)

Paying those kids salaries will crush the D2 and D3 schools financially so expect major cuts across the board. I canít even guess how many students will lose opportunities and coaches that could lose jobs over this, barring an act of Congress.

Dark day.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 6:43:55 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
So, if athletes at Ohio State are employees, then athletes at Ohio Wesleyan and Tiffin and so on will also be considered employees.

At Tiffin, for example, more than half of all students are student athletes. At Ohio Wesleyan, itís 39%. Mt. Union 50%. Heck, even Oberlin is 20%. Oberlin! 🎻

(OU, in comparison, is 2.5%)

Paying those kids salaries will crush the D2 and D3 schools financially so expect major cuts across the board. I canít even guess how many students will lose opportunities and coaches that could lose jobs over this, barring an act of Congress.

Dark day.



Iíve tried to say since some started beating that drum Mike, that the vast majority of schools wouldnít afford athletics. Can you take the smaller schools that rely on tuition paying athletes? Just keep the doors open. Ohio will struggle to find the will to pay their 500+ athletes.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 7:24:11 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
So, if athletes at Ohio State are employees, then athletes at Ohio Wesleyan and Tiffin and so on will also be considered employees.

At Tiffin, for example, more than half of all students are student athletes. At Ohio Wesleyan, itís 39%. Mt. Union 50%. Heck, even Oberlin is 20%. Oberlin! 🎻

(OU, in comparison, is 2.5%)

Paying those kids salaries will crush the D2 and D3 schools financially so expect major cuts across the board. I canít even guess how many students will lose opportunities and coaches that could lose jobs over this, barring an act of Congress.

Dark day.



Iíve tried to say since some started beating that drum Mike, that the vast majority of schools wouldnít afford athletics. Can you take the smaller schools that rely on tuition paying athletes? Just keep the doors open. Ohio will struggle to find the will to pay their 500+ athletes.


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.

That potentially opens up a whole can of worms:

1.Is the money an athlete makes "tax able income" ?

2.Can athletes unionize and strike ?

3.Are athletes entitled to Overtime ?

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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 7:32:50 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
So, if athletes at Ohio State are employees, then athletes at Ohio Wesleyan and Tiffin and so on will also be considered employees.

At Tiffin, for example, more than half of all students are student athletes. At Ohio Wesleyan, itís 39%. Mt. Union 50%. Heck, even Oberlin is 20%. Oberlin! 🎻

(OU, in comparison, is 2.5%)

Paying those kids salaries will crush the D2 and D3 schools financially so expect major cuts across the board. I canít even guess how many students will lose opportunities and coaches that could lose jobs over this, barring an act of Congress.

Dark day.



Iíve tried to say since some started beating that drum Mike, that the vast majority of schools wouldnít afford athletics. Can you take the smaller schools that rely on tuition paying athletes? Just keep the doors open. Ohio will struggle to find the will to pay their 500+ athletes.


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.

That potentially opens up a whole can of worms:

1.Is the money an athlete makes "tax able income" ?

2.Can athletes unionize and strike ?

3.Are athletes entitled to Overtime ?



Those are great questions.

Also, whatís to prevent high school athletes from suing to be paid?

Yes, Ohio University will struggle to pay its athletes. But the university has $680 million in operating revenue for 500 or so athletes. Tiffin has $70 million in operating revenue for 1,000 athletes. Schools like this will struggle just to keep their doors open.

Last Edited: 5/24/2024 7:33:53 AM by Mike Coleman

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:04:48 AM 
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:07:16 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.



This is not part of this agreement, and in fact the agreement specifically avoids doing this.

What this agreement does is clearly layout the NCAA/P5s plan going forward. They will push for legislation that creates an exception from employment for NCAA athletes, and couple it with a revenue share to satisfy anti-trust law.

It's basically the exact thing I predicted several months back when BTC and others were insisting that employment would kill college athletics.

This is an enormous industry that generates enormous amounts of revenue, huge amounts of exposure for higher education, has a rich history in American culture, and is woven into the fabric of colleges from the D3 level up to the Ohio States of the world.

Anybody who thinks it's going to be legislated out of existence is either 1) very naive about how special interests impact the legislative process in the US, or 2) being willfully obtuse because they're upset about the trajectory of college athletics.


Last Edited: 5/24/2024 8:45:11 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:22:13 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.

To me it seems that the most obvious path forward is to go back to the distant past, where sports were all based on a club model, rather than as a "varsity sport" controlled by the university.


ďWe have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.Ē ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:31:48 AM 
L.C. wrote:


To me it seems that the most obvious path forward is to go back to the distant past, where sports were all based on a club model, rather than as a "varsity sport" controlled by the university.


Yes, exactly. Everybody insistent that this kills of D2/D3 sports and bankrupts athletic departments at schools like Ohio seems to be ignoring the option to run a truly amateur athletics operation.

And that's the rub here; everybody wants to have their cake and eat it, too. We can't compete with P5 schools either financially or on the field, but we won't accept a world where we're no longer trying to. And the irony, is that all the while those same folks insist that the very thing they love about college sports is the obvious solution here that they're refusing to accept.

Last Edited: 5/24/2024 8:32:02 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:40:02 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.



This is not part of this agreement, and in fact the agreement specifically avoids doing this.

What this agreement does is clearly layout the NCAA/P5s plan going forward. They will push for legislation that creates an exception from employment for NCAA athletes from employment, and couple it with a revenue share to satisfy anti-trust law.



Does anyone know exactly what's in the agreement?
According to the NYT and CBS sports the details are still being worked out.

What I don't understand is how if school doing "revenue sharing" and paying
athletes directly, they wouldn't be considered an employee.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with this.

Also seems the G5 are "on the outside looking in".



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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:43:04 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why canít D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:50:46 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why canít D1 schools do the same?


If you're asking about the P5 -- they don't want to. They make too much money in the current system to make it remotely logical to do so.

As for the G5, many of them will do exactly this. What people seem to be missing here is that every D1 school has full agency over their own athletic department and operations.

I'm not sure why it's such a hard concept for so many people to grasp, but if D1 athletics changes and requires a financial burden that a school can't afford, they can opt to participate at a lower level.

The anti-trust cases are specifically about the restriction on player earnings in a system that generates such massive amounts of revenue. An amateur system that doesn't generate revenue will have basically no scrutiny.

I mean, Vassar isn't part of this settlement for a reason.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:52:20 AM 
the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception? The reason P5 accepted it is because they knew they were going to lose
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:55:44 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:

Does anyone know exactly what's in the agreement?
According to the NYT and CBS sports the details are still being worked out.

What I don't understand is how if school doing "revenue sharing" and paying
athletes directly, they wouldn't be considered an employee.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with this.

Also seems the G5 are "on the outside looking in".



The reporting has been very consistent that this agreement does not make the athletes employees, the the statements from the NCAA and P5 commissioners echo that, as well as lay out the strategy I mentioned above.

There are many ways to pay people without their being employees. Half the faculty at any given university aren't direct employees of the university. Michael Jordan wasn't an employee of Gatorade.

But more to the point -- all parties involved here are incentivized to find a solution that doesn't involve direct employment. Legislation can be written to do what it needs to do. Folks insisting that this will fit into a framework that already exists (whether that's a labor policy framework, or NCAA framework) are missing the forrest for the trees.

Last Edited: 5/24/2024 8:56:00 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:56:25 AM 
There is a lot going on in addition to this settlement. Multiple lawsuits still going forward. Multiple NLRB filings.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 8:59:06 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception? The reason P5 accepted it is because they knew they were going to lose


I think you're missing my point. The NLRB ruled that under the CURRENT relationship college athletes are employees.

The relationship has to change, and will. We all know what college athletics has become, the demands on athletes, the control coaching staffs have over their time, their majors, and everything else. All of that factors into the NLRBs decision.

Like I said, it's not a coincidence that these rulings are focused on D1 schools and not Vassar or whoever.

Edit to add: the vast majority of NLBR actions are triggered by workers, and worker reporting is a huge part of how the NLRB, Department of Labor, state level agencies, etc. enforce policy. The NCAA/P5s path here is about satisfying athletes with a revenue share based on a negotiable percentage of revenue annually, and legislative policy that creates a special class for college athletes that is not employment and reduces school employment burden, while still letting athletes share in profits.

For everybody asking "why would college athletes get an exception" -- haven't they had an obvious exception for the last 3 decades? It's an industry that's been treated with special circumstances for a long time now. Everybody knew it was in violation of anti-trust policy for a long, long time and nobody did anything about it until it became such a massive organization and massive revenue creator that it was egregious not to. You think a system that let that exist for decades isn't equally incentivized to create a middle of the road option?

And are there other examples of massive industries that are huge sources of entertainment and cultural institutions in the US that have been legislated out of existence? Why do people think anybody wants that to happen here?

Last Edited: 5/24/2024 9:13:23 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 9:15:46 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception? The reason P5 accepted it is because they knew they were going to lose


I think you're missing my point. The NLRB ruled that under the CURRENT relationship college athletes are employees.

The relationship has to change, and will. We all know what college athletics has become, the demands on athletes, the control coaching staffs have over their time, their majors, and everything else. All of that factors into the NLRBs decision.

Like I said, it's not a coincidence that these rulings are focused on D1 schools and not Vassar or whoever.



How will it change? Iím not sure what you even mean. This comes from someone with experience in the D2 and D3 athletics world. They have offseason workouts, film sessions, etc., just like D1. Sent several guys to Ohio Dominican, Tiffin, Findlay who quit after one semester because it was harder than they thought.

Are you saying they will restructure their programs to avoid meeting Dartmouth standards? If so, that proves my point. These schools pay their bills with athletes living the dream. They have 60-man baseball rosters. If you say, ďhey come here and play rec ball,Ē then my guess is a lot of them wonít go $80,000 into debt for rec ball. And without those students, they will struggle to keep the doors open.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 9:21:10 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:

Does anyone know exactly what's in the agreement?
According to the NYT and CBS sports the details are still being worked out.

What I don't understand is how if school doing "revenue sharing" and paying
athletes directly, they wouldn't be considered an employee.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with this.

Also seems the G5 are "on the outside looking in".



The reporting has been very consistent that this agreement does not make the athletes employees, the the statements from the NCAA and P5 commissioners echo that, as well as lay out the strategy I mentioned above.

There are many ways to pay people without their being employees. Half the faculty at any given university aren't direct employees of the university. Michael Jordan wasn't an employee of Gatorade.

But more to the point -- all parties involved here are incentivized to find a solution that doesn't involve direct employment. Legislation can be written to do what it needs to do. Folks insisting that this will fit into a framework that already exists (whether that's a labor policy framework, or NCAA framework) are missing the forrest for the trees.


They can parse language however they want, and try to pretend athletes wouldn't be employees.

Several years ago several of my employees wanted to switch from "at will"
to contract employees.

But, their job duties would be almost the same.

Our corporate attorney said "no way".
"If it walks like a duck ..."
Never happened.

That sounds a lot like the needle the NCAA is trying to thread with this.

Like I posted , lawyers are gonna have a field day with this.

The courts will be the final arbiter of this whole thing.
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M.D.W.S.T
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 9:21:12 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
So, if athletes at Ohio State are employees, then athletes at Ohio Wesleyan and Tiffin and so on will also be considered employees.

At Tiffin, for example, more than half of all students are student athletes. At Ohio Wesleyan, itís 39%. Mt. Union 50%. Heck, even Oberlin is 20%. Oberlin! 🎻

(OU, in comparison, is 2.5%)

Paying those kids salaries will crush the D2 and D3 schools financially so expect major cuts across the board. I canít even guess how many students will lose opportunities and coaches that could lose jobs over this, barring an act of Congress.

Dark day.



Iíve tried to say since some started beating that drum Mike, that the vast majority of schools wouldnít afford athletics. Can you take the smaller schools that rely on tuition paying athletes? Just keep the doors open. Ohio will struggle to find the will to pay their 500+ athletes.


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.

That potentially opens up a whole can of worms:

1.Is the money an athlete makes "tax able income" ?

2.Can athletes unionize and strike ?

3.Are athletes entitled to Overtime ?



Those are great questions.

Also, whatís to prevent high school athletes from suing to be paid?

Yes, Ohio University will struggle to pay its athletes. But the university has $680 million in operating revenue for 500 or so athletes. Tiffin has $70 million in operating revenue for 1,000 athletes. Schools like this will struggle just to keep their doors open.


There are mass closures of colleges around the US - that have nothing to do with athletics - this could be a deathblow to many programs. Sad place to be.

Last Edited: 5/24/2024 9:22:34 AM by M.D.W.S.T

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 9:53:05 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:


How will it change? Iím not sure what you even mean. This comes from someone with experience in the D2 and D3 athletics world. They have offseason workouts, film sessions, etc., just like D1. Sent several guys to Ohio Dominican, Tiffin, Findlay who quit after one semester because it was harder than they thought.

Are you saying they will restructure their programs to avoid meeting Dartmouth standards? If so, that proves my point. These schools pay their bills with athletes living the dream. They have 60-man baseball rosters. If you say, ďhey come here and play rec ball,Ē then my guess is a lot of them wonít go $80,000 into debt for rec ball. And without those students, they will struggle to keep the doors open.



If there a college's entire model depends on convincing 60 D3 baseball players to pay 80k to "live the dream" and the only way that's feasible is through a schedule and level of control that clearly runs afoul of any reasonable definition of amateurism, isn't that a pretty massive problem? Honestly, man, you make D2/D3 athletics sound pretty exploitative. I know that's not the intention, but you're basically saying that the schools sell them an athletic dream -- one that's not super realistic -- and charge them a whole lot of money for it in the process. If academics aren't the point even at D2 or D3, then you're absolutely right, these should be employees and the system will crumble.

Maybe I'm the one that's hopelessly naive, but my sense is there are plenty of people who'd be willing to play baseball at Tiffin even if it functioned more like a club with far lesser time demands, control, etc.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 9:56:22 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:


They can parse language however they want, and try to pretend athletes wouldn't be employees.

Several years ago several of my employees wanted to switch from "at will"
to contract employees.

But, their job duties would be almost the same.

Our corporate attorney said "no way".
"If it walks like a duck ..."
Never happened.

That sounds a lot like the needle the NCAA is trying to thread with this.

Like I posted , lawyers are gonna have a field day with this.

The courts will be the final arbiter of this whole thing.


I dunno, man. You all seem to be pretty certain in how this will all play out, and unwilling to entertain the possibility that legislative bodies in the US will create legislation to find a sensible, middle-of-the-road approach to ensuring a massive revenue creating cultural institution continues to exist.

We disagree, I guess. But I know which path feels rational to me, and it's hard not to see you all's sky is falling, every school is going bankrupt and college athletics is dead viewpoint as panic.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 9:56:24 AM 
My guess is that D2 and D3 will find ways to continue functioning, and all these new rules won't apply at those levels.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 10:00:03 AM 
M.D.W.S.T wrote:

There are mass closures of colleges around the US - that have nothing to do with athletics - this could be a deathblow to many programs. Sad place to be.


56 colleges have either closed or merged since 2020. There are 3,982 in the country. 0.014% doesn't seem like mass closures to me.

Again, what incentive does any party here -- legislators, the schools, the athletes, the NCAA -- have to impose a system that leads to the mass shuttering of schools nationwide?

The NCAA existed outside of federal labor policy for decades. The idea that there's no path to a compromise here seems crazy to me.
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OUs LONG Driver
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 10:15:55 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
M.D.W.S.T wrote:

There are mass closures of colleges around the US - that have nothing to do with athletics - this could be a deathblow to many programs. Sad place to be.


56 colleges have either closed or merged since 2020. There are 3,982 in the country. 0.014% doesn't seem like mass closures to me.

Again, what incentive does any party here -- legislators, the schools, the athletes, the NCAA -- have to impose a system that leads to the mass shuttering of schools nationwide?

The NCAA existed outside of federal labor policy for decades. The idea that there's no path to a compromise here seems crazy to me.


That's 1.4%
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 11:27:12 AM 
Oh yeah, ha. Sorry. Point still stands though.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 11:52:58 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Oh yeah, ha. Sorry. Point still stands though.


I hope you're right, but allow me to put this list here:

Total reported student-athletes per college or university:
Ohio State 1,000*
Tiffin 1,000
Ohio Northern 904
John Carroll 820
Findlay 780
Ashland 779
Wooster 733
Baldwin-Wallace 713
Mt. Union 697
Miami 675*
Case Western 655
Youngstown State 643*
Wittenberg 613
Ohio Wesleyan 601
Marietta 543
Lake Erie College 517
Ohio University 509*
University of Cincinnati 500*
Bowling Green 495*
Dayton 478*
Xavier 388*#
Cleveland State 387*#

*-D1
#-no football

Is there any reason John Carroll has more student athletes than Xavier and Dayton combined? The reason is these athletes provide a steady tuition-paying revenue stream to these schools that are placed into future enrollment projections. Schools then use these projections to do things like hire staff, take on debt and pay presidents handsome bonuses. If these projections fall short, there will be more financial emergencies like the one that closed Notre Dame College after more than a century. For the record, Notre Dame College added football in 2010 and went completely bankrupt within 13 years.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/a-new-era-enrollme...

Also:
https://www.statenews.org/news/2024-02-21/ohio-universiti...




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