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Topic:  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?

Topic:  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 12:14:59 PM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Oh yeah, ha. Sorry. Point still stands though.


I hope you're right, but allow me to put this list here:

Total reported student-athletes per college or university:
Ohio State 1,000*
Tiffin 1,000
Ohio Northern 904
John Carroll 820
Findlay 780
Ashland 779
Wooster 733
Baldwin-Wallace 713
Mt. Union 697
Miami 675*
Case Western 655
Youngstown State 643*
Wittenberg 613
Ohio Wesleyan 601
Marietta 543
Lake Erie College 517
Ohio University 509*
University of Cincinnati 500*
Bowling Green 495*
Dayton 478*
Xavier 388*#
Cleveland State 387*#

*-D1
#-no football

Is there any reason John Carroll has more student athletes than Xavier and Dayton combined? The reason is these athletes provide a steady tuition-paying revenue stream to these schools that are placed into future enrollment projections. Schools then use these projections to do things like hire staff, take on debt and pay presidents handsome bonuses. If these projections fall short, there will be more financial emergencies like the one that closed Notre Dame College after more than a century. For the record, Notre Dame College added football in 2010 and went completely bankrupt within 13 years.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/a-new-era-enrollme...

Also:
https://www.statenews.org/news/2024-02-21/ohio-universiti...


I wasn't aware of how financially reliant small schools are on using athletics to get people in the door and paying full ticket price. Feels a bit like a house of cards, honestly.

What I don't understand, honestly, is what the pitch is. Are they suggesting they're a viable path to a pro career? Or is it just pitched as a final opportunity to play a sport you love? If it's the latter, feels like that's a good thing going forward. If it's the former, they've duped a lot of people for years and it's hard not to feel like the system is pretty awful.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 12:37:35 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Oh yeah, ha. Sorry. Point still stands though.


I hope you're right, but allow me to put this list here:

Total reported student-athletes per college or university:
Ohio State 1,000*
Tiffin 1,000
Ohio Northern 904
John Carroll 820
Findlay 780
Ashland 779
Wooster 733
Baldwin-Wallace 713
Mt. Union 697
Miami 675*
Case Western 655
Youngstown State 643*
Wittenberg 613
Ohio Wesleyan 601
Marietta 543
Lake Erie College 517
Ohio University 509*
University of Cincinnati 500*
Bowling Green 495*
Dayton 478*
Xavier 388*#
Cleveland State 387*#

*-D1
#-no football

Is there any reason John Carroll has more student athletes than Xavier and Dayton combined? The reason is these athletes provide a steady tuition-paying revenue stream to these schools that are placed into future enrollment projections. Schools then use these projections to do things like hire staff, take on debt and pay presidents handsome bonuses. If these projections fall short, there will be more financial emergencies like the one that closed Notre Dame College after more than a century. For the record, Notre Dame College added football in 2010 and went completely bankrupt within 13 years.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/a-new-era-enrollme...

Also:
https://www.statenews.org/news/2024-02-21/ohio-universiti...


I wasn't aware of how financially reliant small schools are on using athletics to get people in the door and paying full ticket price. Feels a bit like a house of cards, honestly.

What I don't understand, honestly, is what the pitch is. Are they suggesting they're a viable path to a pro career? Or is it just pitched as a final opportunity to play a sport you love? If it's the latter, feels like that's a good thing going forward. If it's the former, they've duped a lot of people for years and it's hard not to feel like the system is pretty awful.


Like all things, itís probably a mix of good and bad. For the most part, theyíll do the same thing as D1 schoolsÖsell on coaching, facilities, academics, culture, etc. A lot of these schools have excellent academics and small class sizes. Then theyíll come through with $40,000 grant -in-aids, which in some cases knocks total cost-of-attendance down to $40,000 per year. And I don't think there are any recruiting limits. The last kid I know who went to one of these schools was one of 10 pitchersÖin his recruiting class!

There has been a small-school, arms race for facilities that has been under the radar. Smaller sizes, but very, very nice improvements at fields and stadiums I have been to. For example, this will literally be across the street from Tiffin University: https://www.13abc.com/2023/11/17/heidelberg-university-ro...


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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 12:49:51 PM 
/\/\/\/\ exactly

These schools rely on athletics to bring kids in to "continue the dream." They will find a way. Additionally, a more recent pitch is to mom and dad who have invests thousands in travel ball that coming in and getting college very partially paid for makes the dollars thrown at travel ball all worthwhile, all the while still cutting checks for $50,000 - $60,000. What often happens is the kid drops the sport (time investment not worth sitting on bench) ideally for the university stays in school (parents write bigger check), and thus frees up roster spot for the next wide-eyed freshman to continue the cycle. D2, D3 and others will find the way to keep the water wheel, turning.

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/24/2024 2:38:37 PM 
After a quick glance through this thread, I haven't seen any mention of coaches in these situations having bonuses in their contracts for the number of players on their roster paying full or partial tuition. The more of such players, the bigger the bonus. Any truth to this?
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/25/2024 9:18:11 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
After a quick glance through this thread, I haven't seen any mention of coaches in these situations having bonuses in their contracts for the number of players on their roster paying full or partial tuition. The more of such players, the bigger the bonus. Any truth to this?


Iíve heard rumorsóthings like they look in parking lots of these Perfect Game camps to check out carsóbut canít say for sure.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/25/2024 10:49:14 AM 
Interesting story about a college that, if it wins one more game, will advance to the D3 College World Series. If it does, the school wonít exist when the Series is played.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/40196705/b...

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JimLurker34
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/25/2024 3:06:10 PM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
Interesting story about a college that, if it wins one more game, will advance to the D3 College World Series. If it does, the school wonít exist when the Series is played.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/40196705/b...



That's quite a story. I hope that they win their World Series. That would make a good script for a sports movie.
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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/25/2024 3:25:24 PM 
JimLurker34 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Interesting story about a college that, if it wins one more game, will advance to the D3 College World Series. If it does, the school wonít exist when the Series is played.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/40196705/b...



That's quite a story. I hope that they win their World Series. That would make a good script for a sports movie.


Paramount Pictures presents: "Extra Innings"
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/25/2024 4:09:51 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
/\/\/\/\ exactly

These schools rely on athletics to bring kids in to "continue the dream." They will find a way. Additionally, a more recent pitch is to mom and dad who have invests thousands in travel ball that coming in and getting college very partially paid for makes the dollars thrown at travel ball all worthwhile, all the while still cutting checks for $50,000 - $60,000. What often happens is the kid drops the sport (time investment not worth sitting on bench) ideally for the university stays in school (parents write bigger check), and thus frees up roster spot for the next wide-eyed freshman to continue the cycle. D2, D3 and others will find the way to keep the water wheel, turning.



I think this is basically true for a lot of these schools. And I'm a huge fan of D3.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 7:44:09 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
So, if athletes at Ohio State are employees, then athletes at Ohio Wesleyan and Tiffin and so on will also be considered employees.

At Tiffin, for example, more than half of all students are student athletes. At Ohio Wesleyan, itís 39%. Mt. Union 50%. Heck, even Oberlin is 20%. Oberlin! 🎻

(OU, in comparison, is 2.5%)

Paying those kids salaries will crush the D2 and D3 schools financially so expect major cuts across the board. I canít even guess how many students will lose opportunities and coaches that could lose jobs over this, barring an act of Congress.

Dark day.



Iíve tried to say since some started beating that drum Mike, that the vast majority of schools wouldnít afford athletics. Can you take the smaller schools that rely on tuition paying athletes? Just keep the doors open. Ohio will struggle to find the will to pay their 500+ athletes.


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.

That potentially opens up a whole can of worms:

1.Is the money an athlete makes "tax able income" ?

2.Can athletes unionize and strike ?

3.Are athletes entitled to Overtime ?



NIL is taxable income already
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 7:46:52 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


From what I heard on the radio this morning, under the settlement, if approved by the judge handling the case, athletes will be employees.



This is not part of this agreement, and in fact the agreement specifically avoids doing this.

What this agreement does is clearly layout the NCAA/P5s plan going forward. They will push for legislation that creates an exception from employment for NCAA athletes, and couple it with a revenue share to satisfy anti-trust law.

It's basically the exact thing I predicted several months back when BTC and others were insisting that employment would kill college athletics.

This is an enormous industry that generates enormous amounts of revenue, huge amounts of exposure for higher education, has a rich history in American culture, and is woven into the fabric of colleges from the D3 level up to the Ohio States of the world.

Anybody who thinks it's going to be legislated out of existence is either 1) very naive about how special interests impact the legislative process in the US, or 2) being willfully obtuse because they're upset about the trajectory of college athletics.




You bank your theory on Congress doing something, the NCAA has for a very long time been trying to get their exceptions codeified. It's went no where! They have asked for National NIL law, it's got no where!
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 7:48:43 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why canít D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


Exactly Mike, and Dartmouth is a non-scholarship institution, so the presence of scholarships is not a factor in that decision.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 7:52:28 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


They can parse language however they want, and try to pretend athletes wouldn't be employees.

Several years ago several of my employees wanted to switch from "at will"
to contract employees.

But, their job duties would be almost the same.

Our corporate attorney said "no way".
"If it walks like a duck ..."
Never happened.

That sounds a lot like the needle the NCAA is trying to thread with this.

Like I posted , lawyers are gonna have a field day with this.

The courts will be the final arbiter of this whole thing.


I dunno, man. You all seem to be pretty certain in how this will all play out, and unwilling to entertain the possibility that legislative bodies in the US will create legislation to find a sensible, middle-of-the-road approach to ensuring a massive revenue creating cultural institution continues to exist.

We disagree, I guess. But I know which path feels rational to me, and it's hard not to see you all's sky is falling, every school is going bankrupt and college athletics is dead viewpoint as panic.


The approval rating of Congress is 15%, you seem to be in a rare minority of people who have faith in that political institution.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 7:54:39 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Oh yeah, ha. Sorry. Point still stands though.


I hope you're right, but allow me to put this list here:

Total reported student-athletes per college or university:
Ohio State 1,000*
Tiffin 1,000
Ohio Northern 904
John Carroll 820
Findlay 780
Ashland 779
Wooster 733
Baldwin-Wallace 713
Mt. Union 697
Miami 675*
Case Western 655
Youngstown State 643*
Wittenberg 613
Ohio Wesleyan 601
Marietta 543
Lake Erie College 517
Ohio University 509*
University of Cincinnati 500*
Bowling Green 495*
Dayton 478*
Xavier 388*#
Cleveland State 387*#

*-D1
#-no football

Is there any reason John Carroll has more student athletes than Xavier and Dayton combined? The reason is these athletes provide a steady tuition-paying revenue stream to these schools that are placed into future enrollment projections. Schools then use these projections to do things like hire staff, take on debt and pay presidents handsome bonuses. If these projections fall short, there will be more financial emergencies like the one that closed Notre Dame College after more than a century. For the record, Notre Dame College added football in 2010 and went completely bankrupt within 13 years.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/a-new-era-enrollme...

Also:
https://www.statenews.org/news/2024-02-21/ohio-universiti...


I wasn't aware of how financially reliant small schools are on using athletics to get people in the door and paying full ticket price. Feels a bit like a house of cards, honestly.

What I don't understand, honestly, is what the pitch is. Are they suggesting they're a viable path to a pro career? Or is it just pitched as a final opportunity to play a sport you love? If it's the latter, feels like that's a good thing going forward. If it's the former, they've duped a lot of people for years and it's hard not to feel like the system is pretty awful.



Why do you think small schools have sports? Hocking College made no excuses when they started athletics, it was simple, it was a way to almost double their enrollment! Rio Grande is starting football, last 5 years they have added about 6 sports. Why? They have to have the enrollement.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 7:57:49 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
After a quick glance through this thread, I haven't seen any mention of coaches in these situations having bonuses in their contracts for the number of players on their roster paying full or partial tuition. The more of such players, the bigger the bonus. Any truth to this?


YES! In DII and DIII coaches get roster bonuses, in the form of their check and program budget! Even if a student quits the team, if they stay in school, coaches get that money. There #1 job is to get kids on campus!!!! #2 Keep kids on campus, #3 win games
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 9:54:00 AM 
Excellent thread everyone, good points all around.

I personally think that Ohio and all the other 27 conferences that are not part of the Power 5 need to stop playing this game altogether. If you canít beat them, donít join them. Think outside of the box (so to speak) and go in another direction.

Personally, I love big time sports, but I have always had an absolute blast at Minor League Baseball ballparks for example. They have silly, yet fun, promotions and all the nasty, yet delicious, State Fair type of food that so many of us canít resist. In other words, itís a fun fan experience.

Shoot, you want to hang with some of the Power 5 elites, why donít you make a deal with someone like Ohio State to become their farm team, so to speak, to help develop young players that would only be sitting on the bench in their program, yet might develop into something better by actually playing somewhere.

In this model, we could, at least in theory, get some of their fat cat boosters to cover our own NIL costs.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 1:58:19 PM 
A fact missing from this thread is the number of students who come to play because they were pretty good in high school only to find out that so were a great number of other kids so they give it a shot and end up deep on the bench or not to the team and leave the school after a semester or two with lots of debt. A schools first year retention rate is directly related to how many sports they offer and how many players they bring in.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/26/2024 2:20:51 PM 
Cc cat and I brought this up in an earlier post. These schools recruit more people than can realistically play and they end up on the bench and never get to play. Some quit. The D3 schools hope that many of them will stay enrolled in their school anyway.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/27/2024 7:43:12 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
A fact missing from this thread is the number of students who come to play because they were pretty good in high school only to find out that so were a great number of other kids so they give it a shot and end up deep on the bench or not to the team and leave the school after a semester or two with lots of debt. A schools first year retention rate is directly related to how many sports they offer and how many players they bring in.


Fact isnít really missing. Those here who understand the model have alluded to it. And that is why coaches get paid for athletes staying in school when not on the team anymore.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/27/2024 7:30:56 PM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why canít D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


From my (not a lawyer, nothing more than a sports fan), aren't most D3 athletes closer to customers than employees?
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/27/2024 11:26:42 PM 
Excellent point!
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/28/2024 10:37:02 AM 

Can Congress step in and set up specific rules about the employee/employer relationship that "restores" what I'll call the D3 model? I can't think of why not. Thoughts?

(I imagine most D3 kids don't give a shit about any of this employee/employer crap or NIL or getting paid. They just want to keep playing their sport competitively and have that fun experience.....)


Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/29/2024 6:22:50 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why canít D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


From my (not a lawyer, nothing more than a sports fan), aren't most D3 athletes closer to customers than employees?


Why, they have lifting, they have study tables, they have extra film review and are governed under the same guidelines as DI athletes in regards to time. Most also get some aid, that if examined,is tied to athletic ability.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/30/2024 8:36:56 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:


How will it change? Iím not sure what you even mean. This comes from someone with experience in the D2 and D3 athletics world. They have offseason workouts, film sessions, etc., just like D1. Sent several guys to Ohio Dominican, Tiffin, Findlay who quit after one semester because it was harder than they thought.

Are you saying they will restructure their programs to avoid meeting Dartmouth standards? If so, that proves my point. These schools pay their bills with athletes living the dream. They have 60-man baseball rosters. If you say, ďhey come here and play rec ball,Ē then my guess is a lot of them wonít go $80,000 into debt for rec ball. And without those students, they will struggle to keep the doors open.



If there a college's entire model depends on convincing 60 D3 baseball players to pay 80k to "live the dream" and the only way that's feasible is through a schedule and level of control that clearly runs afoul of any reasonable definition of amateurism, isn't that a pretty massive problem? Honestly, man, you make D2/D3 athletics sound pretty exploitative. I know that's not the intention, but you're basically saying that the schools sell them an athletic dream -- one that's not super realistic -- and charge them a whole lot of money for it in the process. If academics aren't the point even at D2 or D3, then you're absolutely right, these should be employees and the system will crumble.


I've brought this point up several times over the years, and I 100% believe D3 athletics are exploitative and deceptive. And your last sentence is bridging the gap between Mike's stance and your stance.

D3 sports are basically kids not ready to end their athletic careers so they pay a huge sum of money to be part of a team and wear the "college athlete" badge the rest of their lives. I know that sounds harsh but I've seen it play out too many times to think otherwise. If the law says you must treat them as employees and be subject to all the countless DOL & IRS regulations that come with it, the whole thing could topple over.

Or maybe they just jack the tuition even higher to cover it and these crazy families just keep paying it, and essentially get a partial rebate back in the form of their compensation.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/30/2024 9:47:32 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why canít D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


From my (not a lawyer, nothing more than a sports fan), aren't most D3 athletes closer to customers than employees?


Why, they have lifting, they have study tables, they have extra film review and are governed under the same guidelines as DI athletes in regards to time. Most also get some aid, that if examined,is tied to athletic ability.


I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the safe of argument: I'm a member of a gym and could certainly get a personal trainer who would hold me to a lifting program and workout routine; I could get a swing coach to help me with my golf swing (including video analysis). None of that makes me an employee. If I were a world class athlete rather than an out of shape never-has-been, those professionals might even give me a discount on their normal rates to be able to advertise that they train me.

If the D3 makes sure that the above activities actually are voluntary (in that the athlete doesn't lose his or her place on the team if they don't partake, though they might indeed lose playing time), and can convincingly argue that the discount they give is for non-athletic reasons (and is not threatened if they stop participating in said athletic activity), then I think they'd be safe in terms of an employment test
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