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Topic:  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?

Topic:  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/30/2024 11:08:37 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why can’t D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


From my (not a lawyer, nothing more than a sports fan), aren't most D3 athletes closer to customers than employees?


Why, they have lifting, they have study tables, they have extra film review and are governed under the same guidelines as DI athletes in regards to time. Most also get some aid, that if examined,is tied to athletic ability.


I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the safe of argument: I'm a member of a gym and could certainly get a personal trainer who would hold me to a lifting program and workout routine; I could get a swing coach to help me with my golf swing (including video analysis). None of that makes me an employee. If I were a world class athlete rather than an out of shape never-has-been, those professionals might even give me a discount on their normal rates to be able to advertise that they train me.

If the D3 makes sure that the above activities actually are voluntary (in that the athlete doesn't lose his or her place on the team if they don't partake, though they might indeed lose playing time), and can convincingly argue that the discount they give is for non-athletic reasons (and is not threatened if they stop participating in said athletic activity), then I think they'd be safe in terms of an employment test


You believe at Mount Onion or Wisconsin anything, or Mary Hardin, these kids are volunteering to do anything? Oberlin? Maybe! Hieldeberg? Possibably! DIII in general? Nope
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 7:55:43 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why can’t D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


From my (not a lawyer, nothing more than a sports fan), aren't most D3 athletes closer to customers than employees?


Why, they have lifting, they have study tables, they have extra film review and are governed under the same guidelines as DI athletes in regards to time. Most also get some aid, that if examined,is tied to athletic ability.


I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the safe of argument: I'm a member of a gym and could certainly get a personal trainer who would hold me to a lifting program and workout routine; I could get a swing coach to help me with my golf swing (including video analysis). None of that makes me an employee. If I were a world class athlete rather than an out of shape never-has-been, those professionals might even give me a discount on their normal rates to be able to advertise that they train me.

If the D3 makes sure that the above activities actually are voluntary (in that the athlete doesn't lose his or her place on the team if they don't partake, though they might indeed lose playing time), and can convincingly argue that the discount they give is for non-athletic reasons (and is not threatened if they stop participating in said athletic activity), then I think they'd be safe in terms of an employment test


You believe at Mount Onion or Wisconsin anything, or Mary Hardin, these kids are volunteering to do anything? Oberlin? Maybe! Hieldeberg? Possibably! DIII in general? Nope


What's your point here, exactly? This is a thread about the existential threat that potential employment of college athletes poses to D2/D3 colleges. Not just to their athletic departments, but to the schools themselves. Because as others have pointed out, D3 schools often sell players on a dream and overstock athletics programs with athletes paying full tuition.

And you think that these schools are going to ignore that existential threat and risk , in some cases, their existence because they don't want weight training to be voluntary?

Complete nonsense. If D3 athletics can't reasonably be run as an amateur endeavor that doesn't run afoul of labor law despite the fact that the athletes 1) make no money, and 2) actually PAY the schools 80k a year, then the people running athletics departments at these schools are idiots. It's not that hard.

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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 8:20:08 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Very definitively, no. D2 and D3 sports will not be killed by this decision.

There are clear definitions of an employer/employer relationship, and D2 and D3 sports will easily find ways to operate that don't run afoul of that.



Why can’t D1 schools do the same?

Also, the National Labor Relations Board ruled that under the current relationship college athletes are employees (Dartmouth basketball case), so (if this stands) what makes you think other colleges will get an exception?


From my (not a lawyer, nothing more than a sports fan), aren't most D3 athletes closer to customers than employees?


Why, they have lifting, they have study tables, they have extra film review and are governed under the same guidelines as DI athletes in regards to time. Most also get some aid, that if examined,is tied to athletic ability.


I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the safe of argument: I'm a member of a gym and could certainly get a personal trainer who would hold me to a lifting program and workout routine; I could get a swing coach to help me with my golf swing (including video analysis). None of that makes me an employee. If I were a world class athlete rather than an out of shape never-has-been, those professionals might even give me a discount on their normal rates to be able to advertise that they train me.

If the D3 makes sure that the above activities actually are voluntary (in that the athlete doesn't lose his or her place on the team if they don't partake, though they might indeed lose playing time), and can convincingly argue that the discount they give is for non-athletic reasons (and is not threatened if they stop participating in said athletic activity), then I think they'd be safe in terms of an employment test


You believe at Mount Onion or Wisconsin anything, or Mary Hardin, these kids are volunteering to do anything? Oberlin? Maybe! Hieldeberg? Possibably! DIII in general? Nope


What's your point here, exactly? This is a thread about the existential threat that potential employment of college athletes poses to D2/D3 colleges. Not just to their athletic departments, but to the schools themselves. Because as others have pointed out, D3 schools often sell players on a dream and overstock athletics programs with athletes paying full tuition.

And you think that these schools are going to ignore that existential threat and risk , in some cases, their existence because they don't want weight training to be voluntary?

Complete nonsense. If D3 athletics can't reasonably be run as an amateur endeavor that doesn't run afoul of labor law despite the fact that the athletes 1) make no money, and 2) actually PAY the schools 80k a year, then the people running athletics departments at these schools are idiots. It's not that hard.



In my opinion, you have it backwards.

These kids are being sold the dream more than the university in some instances. They sell the workouts, the coaching, the facilities. They are not selling the top-line $70,000 cost
of attendance for a 50th ranked regional university for glorified intramurals, which is what you are suggesting.

No, D2 and D3 aren't going away. There will winners and losers. Schools that are academic draws will continue to find a way.

Look, I hate to pick on Tiffin. But look at it this way. They have 1,000 athletes—same as Ohio State. They also have a $45 million total budget and an endowment of $18 million.

They obviously can’t afford to pay the athletes, but they also can't afford to not have the athletes.

You used the word idiots, not me. But man, those numbers.

Last Edited: 5/31/2024 8:27:18 AM by Mike Coleman

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 8:21:39 AM 
I think that the thing that the question of whether the players are employees will ultimately be tied to who controls the program. Compare current programs at any level to a club sport. Who controls the scheduling? Who handles the money? Who arranges transportation? I personally think that, in order to avoid the employee situation, of necessity, the past may become the future. In order to avoid the players being employees, we may see schools going back to a club model. Remember, that's how it all began. Go back and look at schedules from the 1890's. In 1894, Ohio had no coach, and played only one game, against Marietta. In 1895 and 1896 they played Parker High School. They played games against the likes of Parkersburg Athletic Club, the Deaf & Dumb Institute, and Chillicothe YMCA, and the schedule frequently included high schools until as late at 1908. The number of games varied widely by year, with, for example, nine games in 1897, but only four in 1898 and 1899. Even as late at 1918 they had a season with only four games. It didn't really settle down into a nine game season every year until 1928.

At the division I level, there is too much money involved to ever go back to a full club model, but at D2 and D3, is that also true? If the main point of D2 and D3 sports is to boost enrollment, then there is a lot of money at play, there, too, but if the players are employees, the money flow would be in the opposite direction, and the current model would immediately be non-viable. If they go back to a club model, they could still attract high school students who want to continue to play, and thus boost enrollment. It would probable not be as effective for them as it is now, but it wouldn't lead to a reverse money flow, where they have to pay the players.

Mike Coleman wrote:
...
They obviously can’t afford to pay the athletes, but they also can't afford to not have the athletes.
...

This. They will do whatever is necessary to both allow players to play (and enroll), but to not make them an employee.

Last Edited: 5/31/2024 8:24:54 AM by L.C.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 8:30:52 AM 
The other way they may be able to avoid the employee label is to simply not make any money off them. They make almost nothing off them right now anyway. If they don't charge admission and don't sell TV rights, can they really make the argument that they are employees? Or maybe they still would in the same way a non-profit employee does, where the employee is tasked with accomplishing their goals and initiatives and not making the org money. Fascinating discussion.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 9:20:35 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The other way they may be able to avoid the employee label is to simply not make any money off them. They make almost nothing off them right now anyway. If they don't charge admission and don't sell TV rights, can they really make the argument that they are employees? Or maybe they still would in the same way a non-profit employee does, where the employee is tasked with accomplishing their goals and initiatives and not making the org money. Fascinating discussion.


That’s a great point.

I was also thinking smaller schools could lump it into the university as a program. Say, just for example, the department of baseball. And you would graduate with a minor in that program.

I’m sure people will get creative. Hope so, anyway.

Btw, Birmingham Southern’s endowment was $51 million ($53m operating) and it closed. Tiffin’s is $18m.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 9:56:57 AM 
Some D3s get a decent gate.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 10:26:48 AM 
Mike Coleman wrote:

In my opinion, you have it backwards.

These kids are being sold the dream more than the university in some instances. They sell the workouts, the coaching, the facilities. They are not selling the top-line $70,000 cost
of attendance for a 50th ranked regional university for glorified intramurals, which is what you are suggesting.


I dunno, man. The more you all make this point, the more I fail to see what's worth salvaging here. On the one hand, you've got folks who rue the changes to college sports because amateurism is dead -- and on the other, people are saying that actual amateurism isn't a draw for the kids, and nobody is interested in glorified intramurals. Everything I know about Tiffin I have learned from you -- so far from an expert -- but if their continued solvency relies on selling snake oil to kids and getting them to pay massive amounts of money for it, I'm not sure what to say, exactly.

I mean, here's Tiffin's notable alumni list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin_University . They're not churning out pro athletes left and right.

If a D3 school which makes basically zero revenue from sports and should be the very definition of amateur athletics thinks the only way to operate an athletic program that actually serves the interests of the university is to pretend they're a path to the pros, the rot in NCAA athletics is worse than I thought. And I thought it was pretty bad already.



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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 10:29:30 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:

In my opinion, you have it backwards.

These kids are being sold the dream more than the university in some instances. They sell the workouts, the coaching, the facilities. They are not selling the top-line $70,000 cost
of attendance for a 50th ranked regional university for glorified intramurals, which is what you are suggesting.


I dunno, man. The more you all make this point, the more I fail to see what's worth salvaging here. On the one hand, you've got folks who rue the changes to college sports because amateurism is dead -- and on the other, people are saying that actual amateurism isn't a draw for the kids, and nobody is interested in glorified intramurals. Everything I know about Tiffin I have learned from you -- so far from an expert -- but if their continued solvency relies on selling snake oil to kids and getting them to pay massive amounts of money for it, I'm not sure what to say, exactly.

I mean, here's Tiffin's notable alumni list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin_University . They're not churning out pro athletes left and right.

If a D3 school which makes basically zero revenue from sports and should be the very definition of amateur athletics thinks the only way to operate an athletic program that actually serves the interests of the university is to pretend they're a path to the pros, the rot in NCAA athletics is worse than I thought. And I thought it was pretty bad already.





And they double down:
https://www.tiffin.edu/news/tiffin-university-to-add-mens... /
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stockercat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 11:11:12 AM 
That press release is two years old so Tiffin made that decision prior to the recent changes. It also mentions competing in a conference with Alderson-Broaddus. Alderson-Broaddus is one of the colleges that shut down.

Last Edited: 5/31/2024 11:11:56 AM by stockercat

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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 11:47:03 AM 
You are correct. I guess my point is that it has been a pattern to add sports despite an inadequate endowment in an effort to attract students. They have 23 varsity sports. We have 15.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 12:15:26 PM 
I was recruited to play basketball at the now defunct Urbana University back when they were NAIA. They later leapfrogged D3 and went straight to D2. While I was being recruited, the whole sales pitch was that virtually everyone on campus played a sport, which I thought was strange. I don't remember the price tag for tuition, but I do remember having to take tests while on my official visit because they wanted to see where I was at academically and how much they could knock off the price tag - I think they eventually offered a half-tuition academic scholarship, but the whole hook was getting to play basketball for another 4 years.

I didn't end up going there for a variety of reasons, but I will say the experience was very eye-opening. I'm not sure I'd call it exploitative, but it does border on unethical.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 12:16:19 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:

In my opinion, you have it backwards.

These kids are being sold the dream more than the university in some instances. They sell the workouts, the coaching, the facilities. They are not selling the top-line $70,000 cost
of attendance for a 50th ranked regional university for glorified intramurals, which is what you are suggesting.


I dunno, man. The more you all make this point, the more I fail to see what's worth salvaging here. On the one hand, you've got folks who rue the changes to college sports because amateurism is dead -- and on the other, people are saying that actual amateurism isn't a draw for the kids, and nobody is interested in glorified intramurals. Everything I know about Tiffin I have learned from you -- so far from an expert -- but if their continued solvency relies on selling snake oil to kids and getting them to pay massive amounts of money for it, I'm not sure what to say, exactly.

I mean, here's Tiffin's notable alumni list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin_University . They're not churning out pro athletes left and right.

If a D3 school which makes basically zero revenue from sports and should be the very definition of amateur athletics thinks the only way to operate an athletic program that actually serves the interests of the university is to pretend they're a path to the pros, the rot in NCAA athletics is worse than I thought. And I thought it was pretty bad already.





Again, I don’t mean to paint too wide of a brush here. I’m sure places like Case Western and Univ of Chicago will be just fine, as will most smaller, public universities that can be saved with taxpayer funds. And plenty of regional schools have seemingly adequate endowments (Marietta for example is about $120 million).

Adding sports for students at that level just hasn’t proven successful. Alderson-Broaddus added football in 2012; Notre Dame College in 2010; Birmingham-Southern in 2007. And these weren’t some run-of-the-mill, pop-up schools. They were 100-150 years old. I feel terrible for the students, educators and communities who relied on these places for economic activity.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 1:42:20 PM 
2021:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/archdeacon-central... /

2024:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/local/central-state-unive... /

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JimLurker34
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 3:09:19 PM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
2021:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/archdeacon-central... /

2024:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/local/central-state-unive... /



Interesting. Meanwhile, perhaps more germane to this thread, the private parochial Wilberforce University, in the same town, with only 500 students sponsors 11 sports, which likely is over half the student body.
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 3:53:24 PM 
Morris Brown is another one. They jumped up to D1 in all sports about 20 years ago and spent a ton on money in the process. They suspended all athletic programs a year or two later to avoid bankruptcy and I don't believe that they ever restarted.

Last Edited: 5/31/2024 3:53:35 PM by Victory

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 4:36:58 PM 
JimLurker34 wrote:
Interesting. Meanwhile, perhaps more germane to this thread, the private parochial Wilberforce University, in the same town, with only 500 students sponsors 11 sports, which likely is over half the student body.

It's time for me to interject a thought that has been bothering mea about this discussion. Just because a school has half or more of their student body involved in sports, it does not mean that they are suckering people into enrolling just to play sports. There is a long standing belief that having a sound mind and a healthy body go together, and that education should also include physical activity. (FWIW, society in general is only just catching up, and starting to encourage senior citizens to be more active to protect their heath and their brains, but that's a subject for another day.)

Getting back to my point, at my high school, 100% of the student body was involved in athletics, because we were required to do so. I was required to participate in a sport in every season, Fall, Winter, and Spring. My Senior year, for example, I played football in the fall, swam in the winter, and played golf in the spring. I was not good enough to make varsity in any of the above, but was on JV in them, and competed against other schools. There was no goal to lure people to enroll for sports, but rather, a belief that, by being physically active, we would be better students, and I still believe that today.


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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 9:24:39 PM 
Sure LC that's fine, and I agree with your thoughts on physical wellness and the merits of being active. But you're kidding yourself if you think that is their motivation at these schools. They are exploiting the kids' desire to continue playing their sport into making a college/financial decision they would not otherwise make. As mentioned, the roster sizes are massive, and many quit after year 1 after the school already hooked the student onto campus. I've heard stories of them actively promoting kids to quit, so they can make room for another freshman recruit to sucker into campus. Comparing a physical activity requirement at a public school to the recruiting practices of very expensive private universities is a big reach. The motivations behind them could not be more apart.


Andrew Ruck
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 9:59:12 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Sure LC that's fine, and I agree with your thoughts on physical wellness and the merits of being active. But you're kidding yourself if you think that is their motivation at these schools. They are exploiting the kids' desire to continue playing their sport into making a college/financial decision they would not otherwise make. As mentioned, the roster sizes are massive, and many quit after year 1 after the school already hooked the student onto campus. I've heard stories of them actively promoting kids to quit, so they can make room for another freshman recruit to sucker into campus. Comparing a physical activity requirement at a public school to the recruiting practices of very expensive private universities is a big reach. The motivations behind them could not be more apart.


This.

Reality: We need two left-handed pitchers so let’s bring in eight and cut six after fall semester workouts.

Telling all 8 of those recruits: “You should be D1, kid. You're just a few mph from being MLB material. We have the training program to get you there.”
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 5/31/2024 11:34:11 PM 
Tiffin is D2, btw.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/1/2024 7:27:03 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Sure LC that's fine, and I agree with your thoughts on physical wellness and the merits of being active. But you're kidding yourself if you think that is their motivation at these schools. ...

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of these schools motivation. I'm saying that the whole reason for sports being involved in education in the first place is based on the long-standing notion that active, healthy students learn better than students who are not active and involved. It is not impossible to achieve the result of a high percentage of the student body involved in athletes without having a corrupt motive. It is sad that a noble educational purpose has been corrupted in today's world.

I wonder what would happen if a school took the traditional approach today? "At NoName University, we encourage all students to participate in athletics, and we offer 23 different sports at the varsity level, and 15 more at the club level, making sports available to nearly everyone. We believe that competing in sports enhances both learning and community, and we want all our students to grow to be successful, on the playing fields, in the classroom, and in life after NoName."


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/2/2024 12:29:45 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The other way they may be able to avoid the employee label is to simply not make any money off them. They make almost nothing off them right now anyway. If they don't charge admission and don't sell TV rights, can they really make the argument that they are employees? Or maybe they still would in the same way a non-profit employee does, where the employee is tasked with accomplishing their goals and initiatives and not making the org money. Fascinating discussion.


There are high school programs here in Ohio that bring in more than many colleges. Are they too going to have to pay the players?

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/2/2024 8:46:30 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The other way they may be able to avoid the employee label is to simply not make any money off them. They make almost nothing off them right now anyway. If they don't charge admission and don't sell TV rights, can they really make the argument that they are employees? Or maybe they still would in the same way a non-profit employee does, where the employee is tasked with accomplishing their goals and initiatives and not making the org money. Fascinating discussion.


There are high school programs here in Ohio that bring in more than many colleges. Are they too going to have to pay the players?



That’s coming Al
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/2/2024 9:29:32 PM 
OHSAA is next target.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/3/2024 6:18:45 AM 
SBH wrote:
OHSAA is next target.


NIL is in the surrounding states, the state legislature has made school choice such a thing that transferring is easier and easier.
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