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Topic:  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?

Topic:  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/3/2024 6:54:35 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
SBH wrote:
OHSAA is next target.


NIL is in the surrounding states, the state legislature has made school choice such a thing that transferring is easier and easier.


Yes. Right now 30 states have NIL, including Kentucky and Indiana.

Itís widespread lore that Gerry Faust financially assisted the Francisco family to move brothers Hiawatha and DíJuan across the river to play for Moeller. Some said from Texas. (I don't think it is ďexactlyĒ true, BTW)

Regardless, It will be interesting to see if the route doesn't head the other way with the NIL rules.
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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/3/2024 9:54:09 AM 
L.C. wrote:
JimLurker34 wrote:
Interesting. Meanwhile, perhaps more germane to this thread, the private parochial Wilberforce University, in the same town, with only 500 students sponsors 11 sports, which likely is over half the student body.

It's time for me to interject a thought that has been bothering mea about this discussion. Just because a school has half or more of their student body involved in sports, it does not mean that they are suckering people into enrolling just to play sports. There is a long standing belief that having a sound mind and a healthy body go together, and that education should also include physical activity. (FWIW, society in general is only just catching up, and starting to encourage senior citizens to be more active to protect their heath and their brains, but that's a subject for another day.)

Getting back to my point, at my high school, 100% of the student body was involved in athletics, because we were required to do so. I was required to participate in a sport in every season, Fall, Winter, and Spring. My Senior year, for example, I played football in the fall, swam in the winter, and played golf in the spring. I was not good enough to make varsity in any of the above, but was on JV in them, and competed against other schools. There was no goal to lure people to enroll for sports, but rather, a belief that, by being physically active, we would be better students, and I still believe that today.


I believe that locally the Air Force Academy requires that all cadets either play a varsity or intramural sport for the reasons you suggest. Team building exercise for sure. The last time I looked they had over 35 varsity sports.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/3/2024 10:35:19 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The other way they may be able to avoid the employee label is to simply not make any money off them. They make almost nothing off them right now anyway. If they don't charge admission and don't sell TV rights, can they really make the argument that they are employees? Or maybe they still would in the same way a non-profit employee does, where the employee is tasked with accomplishing their goals and initiatives and not making the org money. Fascinating discussion.


There are high school programs here in Ohio that bring in more than many colleges. Are they too going to have to pay the players?



Thatís coming Al


It's been proven for centuries in law and culture - The slippery slope is very real.

Last Edited: 6/3/2024 10:35:43 AM by Andrew Ruck


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/3/2024 10:44:15 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:

It's been proven for centuries in law and culture - The slippery slope is very real.


It's interesting that we don't consider it part of the slippery slope that high school football coaches are paying to relocate children, but instead that the "slippery slope" is the acknowledgement of how much money is created by amateur athletics.

Had adults acted like adults and actually had the best interests of kids in mind for the last three decades, I'm willing to be that there's a whole lot less legal scrutiny on the NCAA.
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/3/2024 2:32:04 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


It's interesting that we don't consider it part of the slippery slope that high school football coaches are paying to relocate children, but instead that the "slippery slope" is the acknowledgement of how much money is created by amateur athletics.

Had adults acted like adults and actually had the best interests of kids in mind for the last three decades, I'm willing to be that there's a whole lot less legal scrutiny on the NCAA.


No doubt. While the latest developments haven't been great for our athletic department, SOMETHING had to happen. What existed before was nothing short of exploitation, especially at the P5 level. Colleges were paying coaches 7, sometimes 8, figures based on open market value for their abilities which was partially for their ability to convince kids with talent to use their talent to make money for their school without the kid actually being paid open market value. What we have had recently has been chaos with lawsuits flying and the NCAA's fear reducing things to near anarchy. If they had allowed the players to unionize and had collectively bargained with them 25 years ago it would have been more fair and what we ended up with probably would have been an actual framework that was better for college sports as a whole.

Last Edited: 6/3/2024 2:33:16 PM by Victory

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/9/2024 5:00:29 PM 
I completely agree. When coaches were paid less than the president the old way seemed to work, more or less. Weíve all heard the stories about boosters lining athletes pockets.
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JimLurker34
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/9/2024 9:06:58 PM 
giacomo wrote:
I completely agree. When coaches were paid less than the president the old way seemed to work, more or less. Weíve all heard the stories about boosters lining athletes pockets.


And football players at OHIO had no-show jobs at that time. So, it wasn't just the Big Time schools that figured out a way to channel money to athletes.
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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/13/2024 11:20:38 AM 
Interesting that the ďChronicle of EducationĒ was/is selling small colleges on the idea you could boost enrollment through athletics. I'm sure consultants were/are also selling it, but for more than $79.

https://store.chronicle.com/products/the-athletics-advant...
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M.D.W.S.T
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/14/2024 12:11:16 PM 
JimLurker34 wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I completely agree. When coaches were paid less than the president the old way seemed to work, more or less. Weíve all heard the stories about boosters lining athletes pockets.


And football players at OHIO had no-show jobs at that time. So, it wasn't just the Big Time schools that figured out a way to channel money to athletes.


Oh the glory days.

I worked at a golf course in high school and college and there were several OSU football players on staff that I met maybe one or two times.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/14/2024 1:41:09 PM 
M.D.W.S.T wrote:
JimLurker34 wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I completely agree. When coaches were paid less than the president the old way seemed to work, more or less. Weíve all heard the stories about boosters lining athletes pockets.


And football players at OHIO had no-show jobs at that time. So, it wasn't just the Big Time schools that figured out a way to channel money to athletes.


Oh the glory days.

I worked at a golf course in high school and college and there were several OSU football players on staff that I met maybe one or two times.


I'm curious how this worked in practice. Obviously the golf course isn't just paying the wages without being reimbursed. Did a booster make a big donation to the course? Did Ohio State football host a big event at the course and over-pay by a couple hundred grand?

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M.D.W.S.T
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/14/2024 2:15:24 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
M.D.W.S.T wrote:
JimLurker34 wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I completely agree. When coaches were paid less than the president the old way seemed to work, more or less. Weíve all heard the stories about boosters lining athletes pockets.


And football players at OHIO had no-show jobs at that time. So, it wasn't just the Big Time schools that figured out a way to channel money to athletes.


Oh the glory days.

I worked at a golf course in high school and college and there were several OSU football players on staff that I met maybe one or two times.


I'm curious how this worked in practice. Obviously the golf course isn't just paying the wages without being reimbursed. Did a booster make a big donation to the course? Did Ohio State football host a big event at the course and over-pay by a couple hundred grand?



I'm sure there was some funny business going on with timecards. We all got paid hourly rate, 40 hours. Didn't physically clock in or out.

We also did a lot of landscaping on the side for the owners friends. We'd mow the grass in the morning and then take the gators to houses on or near the course lol. Honestly, it was a fun summer job for a teenager. We got free golf as well.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/20/2024 10:03:31 PM 
FCS football ADs have already started a proactive plan to start making college sports at that level actually reflect amateurism: https://apnews.com/article/ncaa-division-i-model-00b192e0...
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/21/2024 8:31:27 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FCS football ADs have already started a proactive plan to start making college sports at that level actually reflect amateurism: https://apnews.com/article/ncaa-division-i-model-00b192e0...


That article was lame in regards to the elephant in the room.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/21/2024 8:42:54 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FCS football ADs have already started a proactive plan to start making college sports at that level actually reflect amateurism: https://apnews.com/article/ncaa-division-i-model-00b192e0...


That article was lame in regards to the elephant in the room.


Yes, we know, Billy. The sky is falling and college sports won't exist and you are going to keep posting the same fears over and over, and never suggest any solutions.

Thankfully, there are adults trying to solve the problem instead of laying on the floor throwing a fit.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/21/2024 4:54:16 PM 
In my case little old me had a few perks on campus and I was certainly not Bill Walton. I got in free with a date at the Athena. I had a discount and tab at the local men's shop. A few restaurants would give me a sizable discount. A beer store would give me a 1/3 discount when I bought a case. One booster would give me 50 bucks to babysit his young kids for a few hours, although I only did that twice.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/22/2024 11:57:48 AM 
Over the years, I've hired a couple football players for summer jobs. One of them believed that he didn't need to show up in order to get paid. He was mistaken. The other was an excellent employee.


ďWe have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.Ē ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/24/2024 12:27:51 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FCS football ADs have already started a proactive plan to start making college sports at that level actually reflect amateurism: https://apnews.com/article/ncaa-division-i-model-00b192e0...


That article was lame in regards to the elephant in the room.


Yes, we know, Billy. The sky is falling and college sports won't exist and you are going to keep posting the same fears over and over, and never suggest any solutions.

Thankfully, there are adults trying to solve the problem instead of laying on the floor throwing a fit.


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed. Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread. And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/24/2024 3:21:29 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed.


You missed it because I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to post. I just criticized what you do post, because I think it's largely wrong, and mostly unhelpful and whiny.


BillyTheCat wrote:


Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread.


And I've explained why I disagree. And the article I posted suggests that some ADs have similar thoughts.

BillyTheCat wrote:

And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.


We're not even having the same conversation, dude.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/26/2024 12:03:24 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed.


You missed it because I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to post. I just criticized what you do post, because I think it's largely wrong, and mostly unhelpful and whiny.


BillyTheCat wrote:


Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread.


And I've explained why I disagree. And the article I posted suggests that some ADs have similar thoughts.

BillyTheCat wrote:

And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.


We're not even having the same conversation, dude.


Never said, you did state we canít post, you just get butt hyrt when people do. You are allowed to disagree, but you lose it with5 quote box posts when you do. Youreallyputthis muchtime into a sports message board?

And if we are not on the same conversation, whydoyou keep coming back?

Last Edited: 6/26/2024 12:04:22 AM by BillyTheCat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/26/2024 5:03:03 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed.


You missed it because I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to post. I just criticized what you do post, because I think it's largely wrong, and mostly unhelpful and whiny.


BillyTheCat wrote:


Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread.


And I've explained why I disagree. And the article I posted suggests that some ADs have similar thoughts.

BillyTheCat wrote:

And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.


We're not even having the same conversation, dude.


Never said, you did state we canít post, you just get butt hyrt when people do. You are allowed to disagree, but you lose it with5 quote box posts when you do. Youreallyputthis muchtime into a sports message board?

And if we are not on the same conversation, whydoyou keep coming back?


Congratulations on your 9,593rd post on a sports message board you don't care about.

Last Edited: 6/26/2024 9:28:38 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/26/2024 9:53:09 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed.


You missed it because I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to post. I just criticized what you do post, because I think it's largely wrong, and mostly unhelpful and whiny.


BillyTheCat wrote:


Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread.


And I've explained why I disagree. And the article I posted suggests that some ADs have similar thoughts.

BillyTheCat wrote:

And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.


We're not even having the same conversation, dude.


Never said, you did state we canít post, you just get butt hyrt when people do. You are allowed to disagree, but you lose it with5 quote box posts when you do. Youreallyputthis muchtime into a sports message board?

And if we are not on the same conversation, whydoyou keep coming back?


Congratulations on your 9,593rd post on a sports message board you don't care about.


Been here since you were in elementary school, and none of my post are book like. ;-)
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 6/26/2024 4:10:24 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed.


You missed it because I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to post. I just criticized what you do post, because I think it's largely wrong, and mostly unhelpful and whiny.


BillyTheCat wrote:


Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread.


And I've explained why I disagree. And the article I posted suggests that some ADs have similar thoughts.

BillyTheCat wrote:

And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.


We're not even having the same conversation, dude.


Never said, you did state we canít post, you just get butt hyrt when people do. You are allowed to disagree, but you lose it with5 quote box posts when you do. Youreallyputthis muchtime into a sports message board?

And if we are not on the same conversation, whydoyou keep coming back?


Congratulations on your 9,593rd post on a sports message board you don't care about.


Been here since you were in elementary school, and none of my post are book like. ;-)


According to your profile, you've been here for two years less than me and posted 300% more. You have posted here twice a day for 12 years straight. At least, you know, on this account.

But yeah, good point.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 7/1/2024 10:57:43 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Iím sorry, I missed where you can post whatever you want over and over, but others are not allowed.


You missed it because I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to post. I just criticized what you do post, because I think it's largely wrong, and mostly unhelpful and whiny.


BillyTheCat wrote:


Just restating that paying athletes as this progresses and the move towards employment strengthens is not going to bode well for Olympic sports or D2 and D3, which is the topic of the thread.


And I've explained why I disagree. And the article I posted suggests that some ADs have similar thoughts.

BillyTheCat wrote:

And again, there is no actual information in that article. As for throwing a fit, not even close. What I do know is I work with D2 and DIII schools and talk with their coaches and administrators regularly. But Iíll pass to your knowledge on the subject.


We're not even having the same conversation, dude.


Never said, you did state we canít post, you just get butt hyrt when people do. You are allowed to disagree, but you lose it with5 quote box posts when you do. Youreallyputthis muchtime into a sports message board?

And if we are not on the same conversation, whydoyou keep coming back?


Congratulations on your 9,593rd post on a sports message board you don't care about.


Been here since you were in elementary school, and none of my post are book like. ;-)


According to your profile, you've been here for two years less than me and posted 300% more. You have posted here twice a day for 12 years straight. At least, you know, on this account.

But yeah, good point.


Believe what you want brother. Makes you feel better,and at the end of the day, makes you wrong again!
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ?
   Posted: 7/15/2024 12:54:10 PM 
Not a ruling, just a concurring opinion, but another very clear indicator of the direction this is taking.

Notably, this makes clear that the "employee" determination wouldn't likely apply to all college athletes and implies that the revenue generated is going to be a big factor.

Helps explain why that group of ADs for non P5 schools are looking at ways to run athletics that exert less control over athletes time; that'll just increase the likelihood that athletes aren't found to be employees in their programs. D3 will likely take similar steps.

https://www.sportico.com/law/analysis/2024/johnson-v-ncaa... /
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Will Power 5 Decision Kill D2 and D3 sports ? (NT)
   Posted: 7/15/2024 1:25:45 PM 

Last Edited: 7/15/2024 2:01:21 PM by Victory

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