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Topic: RE: Extend Tim Albin

Topic: RE: Extend Tim Albin

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 8:11:38 PM

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

L.C. wrote:

This is what I found on MAC coaches pay, compiles from a variety of sources, so it may not be accurate:

1. Candle, Toledo $1.1
2. Taylor, WMU $850k
3. McElwain, CMU $840k
4. Linguist, Buffalo $675k
5. Hammock, NIU $631k
6. Creighton, EMU $540k
7. Burns, Kent $540k
8. Martin, Miami $533k
9. Albin, Ohio $531k
10. Loeffler, BG $525k
11. Moorhead, Akron $500k
12. Neu, Ball State $453k

Based on this, I see no reason not to bump Albin to $580k, which would keep him up with inflation, but also move him into the top half of the MAC salaries.

Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?

Don't know the whole list, but Boals is second, Groce first: https://www.crainscleveland.com/kevin-kleps-blog/akrons-g...

Funny that a year ago people here insisted that our AD got "snookered" and "bamboozled" in her negotiations with Albin.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 8:52:23 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?

Some say she still did.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 8:56:46 PM

giacomo wrote:

Albin makes more than our president, who is at 489k. He is doing fine and if wants to go, fine.

Albin should be like Trump and just give his salary back. News flash most all football and basketball coaches make more than the President, of the US and of the University. Hell there are NIL deals for athletes making more than University Presidents and POTUS.

giacomo
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:20:09 PM

Only Trump never did it. We are not making money from our athletic programs, so our coaches should not make more than the president. If you think they should, I have some thoughts about you that I don�t think it�s appropriate to share.

L.C.
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:27:00 PM

Sorting the coaches in a different way, and looking at all MAC coaches hired in the last four years, and also listing their prior head coaching experience when hired:

Hires for 2023
Taylor, WMU $850k, head coaching record when hired: no prior experience as head coach
Burns, Kent $540k, head coaching record when hired: no prior experience as head coach

Hires for 2022
Moorhead, Akron $500k, at FCS 38-13, at BCS 14-12

Hires for 2021
Albin, Ohio $531k, at NAIA 25-8 including one NAIA National Championship
Linguist, Buffalo $675k, head coaching record when hired: no prior experience as head coach

Hires for 2019
McElwain, CMU $840k, prior at FBS 30-18
Hammock, NIU $631k, head coaching record when hired: no prior experience as head coach
Loeffler, BG $525k, head coaching record when hired: no prior experience as head coach

Only two coaches have been hired that had prior FBS or FCS experience. Dropping those out, leaves 6 hires with no experience at at the FBS or FCS level. Based on this sample of six, the average starting salary in the MAC for coaches with no experience as a head coach has been 625k.

The biggest bargain in the group may be Joe Moorhead at Akron. He had a solid track record, but agreed to get the lowest pay. Furthermore, Akron was dramatically improved by the end of the season, beating NIU, and barely losing to Buffalo and EMU, two of the better teams in the conference.

If Albin does leave after next year, I would expect that Ohio will go with someone with with no track record as a head coach to save money, and the going rate will probably rise slightly with inflation, so Ohio will probably end up paying in the $650k for a replacement with no prior head coaching experience.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

M.D.W.S.T
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:28:52 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?

I�ve never really spent any time looking into it, but I�m pretty surprised Boals is the 123rd paid coach.

That explains a lot.

https://theresourcenexus.com/coaches-salary /

BillyTheCat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:37:45 PM

giacomo wrote:

If I was you, I would launch a public boycott of the situation! More people need educated. I mean, many probably do not realize that in all 50 states the highest paid public employee is a coach. In 49 states it�s a football or basketball coach. So let�s bring this to the people.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:38:49 PM

L.C. wrote:

Have you taken into account none of them should make as much as the President of the University.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:41:22 PM

L.C. wrote:

In your study/research (which is awesome by the way) ONLY ONE coach in the MAC won a National Title at the collegiate level.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/10/2023 9:42:52 PM

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?

I�ve never really spent any time looking into it, but I�m pretty surprised Boals is the 123rd paid coach.

That explains a lot.

https://theresourcenexus.com/coaches-salary /

So Boals is in the TOP 1/3rd of basketball coaches. Where is Tim? Bottom 50%

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 9:22:53 AM

BillyTheCat wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?

I�ve never really spent any time looking into it, but I�m pretty surprised Boals is the 123rd paid coach.

That explains a lot.

https://theresourcenexus.com/coaches-salary /

So Boals is in the TOP 1/3rd of basketball coaches. Where is Tim? Bottom 50%

Seems like an apples-to-oranges comparison to me.

Albin was a first time FBS head coach and negotiating pay from a lower baseline. Even in the wonky world of college athletics, labor markets are still markets and salaries don't just reflect what others pay but also what others are willing to pay the individual in question. That's likely higher now for Albin, but there doesn't seem to be any suitors for him right now.

Boals on the other hand was already a head coach and it took more to get him here. Our basketball program's also just better than our football program. You can make the case we're in the top third of basketball programs nationally, while football's almost certainly in the bottom half despite our string of bowl appearances.

L.C.
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 9:50:46 AM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Have you taken into account none of them should make as much as the President of the University.

Really, that's totally irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the proper ways to determine the pay of either the Football Coach or the President. For both, the proper pricing depends on two things. The first is the competitive salaries. How much do you need to pay in order to get the quality you expect? The second is, how much do they contribute directly to the financial and academic success of the University?

For the football coach, it seems that most MAC schools seem to think that in today's market, a starting pay in the $540-625k range is appropriate, and the starting pay for established coaches is not much different. What about looking at the value? A good coach can contribute value in a couple of ways. First, can he put butts in the seats? The second one is harder to determine, and involves the question of how does he affect contributions to the University? Is he a good face of the University, that inspires donations, not just for athletics, but for the general fund as well?

Looking at attendance first, Solich, for a long time, had Ohio's attendance consistently averaging over 21k a game, but that slumped the last few years as attendance slumped nationwide for all teams. How has TA done? Here are numbers for the last few years:
2016 21,190 per home game
2017 19,388
2018 about 16,500 (no attendance numbers available for Howard)
2019 16,566
2021 17,626
2022 17,692

2021 was helped by a big attendance for Syracuse. If we look just at MAC games, in 2021 the average was 15,609, while the 2022 average was 16,781, an increase of 7.5%. If we guess that the average ticket price is $20, then for 6 games Ohio takes in about $2.1 million. A 7.5% increase is about $160k. What if that trend holds, and Ohio can get back to the 21,000 numbers prior to 2018? That would be a difference of over $400k. So, a bad coach can keep the program going, but a good coach that fills the seats is definitely worth more. How is Albin doing? So far, not bad. Attendance in 2022 was the highest since 2017, but it as a ways to go.

What about the argument that the whole program loses money? That's an argument with no basis. In proper cost accounting, you have to look at marginal costs, not average costs. If Coach A costs $400k and keeps things going, while Coach B costs $550k but contributes an extra $200k to revenue, which is the best choice? As for the argument "but the whole program loses money", that's an argument towards the question "should their be a football program at all", not towards the question of how much to pay the coach.

As for the question of how the coach affects giving, that's a question I can't answer. Is TA a good face for the University? Does he stimulate giving in general, not just to athletics? That I can't answer. I do know that traditionally, after a good football or basketball year, general giving rises for a year or two. Will it rise after last year's 10-4 record and bowl win? If things go as they usually do, probably, but I can't say for certain.

Thus, I can't answer the overall question of "how much should TA be paid". All I can do is provide a proper framework. The decision should be made with regard to valid questions, like, how much is he contributing to attendance and giving.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

TWT
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 11:41:57 AM

Numbers aside I think having a coach for 5+ years with a successful track record and paid within the Top 3 of the MAC is about as good as it gets. That means your program has equity in the staff compared to a new or unsuccessful one. Solich IMO build equity in the program by winning 100 games here.

Attendance slide is at least partially tied to a slide in student attendance at the main campus.

Fall enrollment main campus:
2017: 20,884
2018: 20,073
2019: 18,938
2020: 17,141
2021: 16,987

https://www.ohio.edu/iea/student-data/enrollment/fallenroll

In 2022 the numbers are up slightly but even with bigger classes it should never reach the peak of the 2014-2017 that correlated with some of the best attendances in school history. Student enrollment and scheduling by the AD and luck with weather have a lot to do with the numbers. Tying Albin's salary to attendance isn't a fair metric. The ceiling of the football attendance numbers is more defined on historical data these days.

In the 90's the record crowd at Peden was 19,000 going back to 1968 so there was a question of what the modern program could/would draw in the future with significant investment and a growing alumni base. 26,000 for NMSU after the Penn State win in 2012 and crowds of 25,000 the past decade. If TA then averages 22,000 for the season on the back of a few 25,000 crowds how does that go any higher?

In 1995 when Boeh revamped the Attack Cat, 50 years of alumni would take you back to 1945. Today going back 50 years today takes you to 1973. The university didn't hit 6,000 students until 1955-56 and wasn't 10,000 students until 1963-64. By 1972-73 however the enrollment sat at 17,541 which is right around where it is today in Athens. The last couple of decades have benefited from a demographic tailwind which I mentioned was coming when I started on this board and its predecessor.

Next year TA has Iowa State at home so that could be 27,000. Was that TA or the AD bringing in Iowa St to Peden?

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

L.C.
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 12:04:36 PM

Campus Flow wrote:

Agreed. I only proposed an increase that matched the 7% inflation in the last year, which would move him up to 6th (if other coaches don't get similar sized raises). In time he may move higher. I'm in the "give him more job affirmation and job security" camp, with a small increase, not in the "move him to the top of the MAC in pay" camp.

Campus Flow wrote:

...
Attendance slide is at least partially tied to a slide in student attendance at the main campus.

Fall enrollment main campus:
2017: 20,884
2018: 20,073
2019: 18,938
2020: 17,141
2021: 16,987

I'm sure falling enrollment has some impact, but they don't seem to correlate at all. Since 2018 enrollment is down 3,000+, while attendance per game is up by >1,000 per game. My recollection is that there was a huge amount of negative press related to head injuries in 2018, and attendance dropped nationwide at that time, not just at Ohio.

Campus Flow wrote:

... If TA then averages 22,000 for the season on the back of a few 25,000 crowds how does that go any higher?

It doesn't, but if he can get it back to over 21k, that is an extra ~$400k a year, which is clearly of value.

Campus Flow wrote:

...
Next year TA has Iowa State at home so that could be 27,000. Was that TA or the AD bringing in Iowa St to Peden?

The schedule clearly impacts attendance, as well as costs. That part is on the AD. That's why i used MAC games only for direct comparisons. There are always 4 MAC home games every year, normally 2-3 of them mid-week games. Even then there can be variations due to factors like weather.

Last Edited: 1/11/2023 12:06:55 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

TWT
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 12:36:42 PM

3,000 students doesn't sound like a lot but if half of those are at the game for homecoming that amounts to 1,500 students and another 1,500-2,000 in the stands. Students for a well attended game are forced into sitting on Victory Hill which is counted in Peden's capacity but not a real seat. A bigger hill with rows of actual seats would be useful.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

giacomo
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 12:54:32 PM

L.C. wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Have you taken into account none of them should make as much as the President of the University.

Your priorities are messed up. How can you say a coach who has 50 people under him should make more than the president who has the entire university? Especially when we don�t make money on athletics.Do you get some thrill to say your Alma mater pays their coach a lot of money? I guess you are the poster child for what is called a fan(atic).

L.C.
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 12:59:16 PM

Campus Flow wrote:

Combining the attendance with the enrollment into one table:

2018 Enrollment down 811, attendance down 2888/game
2019 Enrollment down 1135, attendance up 66/game
2020 Covid year
2021 Enrollment down 1981 from 2019, attendance up 1060/game from 2019
2022 Enrollment not available, MAC game attendance up 1172/game

Full year attendance in 2022 was only up 66/game, though, because 2021 numbers were boosted by having a P5 team, Syracuse, in Peden.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 2:08:14 PM

Hey, I had a question...

Does anyone know if Tim Albin makes more than the University president?

And if so, how does giacomo feel about it?

NashvilleKat
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 2:36:34 PM

The president of 330 million people makes $400,000. Pay our football coach the amount necessary to keep moving forward. They have plenty of money in endowments and donations. They can find the money that they need. I enjoyed this 10-4 season, with a MAC East title and a bowl win. With Kurtis returning and the rest of the offense, next year should be fun. Enjoy the ride and quit belly aching.

Last Edited: 1/11/2023 2:37:52 PM by NashvilleKat

M.D.W.S.T
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 2:46:05 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Honestly, this list has convinced me more than any argument on this website, perhaps ever.

9th of 12? Is that the hometown discount? Yuck.

What does basketball look like?

I�ve never really spent any time looking into it, but I�m pretty surprised Boals is the 123rd paid coach.

That explains a lot.

https://theresourcenexus.com/coaches-salary /

So Boals is in the TOP 1/3rd of basketball coaches. Where is Tim? Bottom 50%

I have another data point to add here...

Albin is a first time head coach following a hall of famer, and is being paid nearly the same.

$589K for the winningest coach in MAC history.

$531K for a guy in his first job.

I also didn't realize how vastly underpaid Solich was at the time... OU should be the #1 destination for coaches and recruits. Always. All programs. (except maybe Soccer... and Hockey)

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-coach-solich-s-...

TWT
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 3:37:55 PM

L.C. wrote:

Campus Flow wrote:

Lower enrollment level can also explain why Syracuse was only 24,000 instead of 25,000 or 26,000. Homecoming wasn't 25,000 this year only about 24,000. Enrollment however bottomed out and this year is up about 2%.

Enrollment is projected to regain another 1,500+ students over the next 3 years or so, especially with the way freshman classes are now managed to be overflow classes. This years class could have been 5,000 freshman but they cut it off at a near record 4,400. The all time high in undergraduate enrollment was 18,188 in 2016 and in 2021 is was down to 14,336 (lowest since 1987). That is almost a 4,000 drop in undergraduates.

https://www.ohio.edu/iea/historical-data/general-historic...

Future projections have a recovery to around 16,500 optimistically. All time undergraduate high enrollment is likely in. Alumni base has another 20% of growth left in it from lower totals in the 70's and 80's.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

IceCat76
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 3:41:22 PM

Quote:

OU should be the #1 destination for coaches and recruits. Always. All programs. (except maybe Soccer... and Hockey)

Actually, OU is fourth in hockey, behind WMU, BG and Fiami

L.C.
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 7:07:14 PM

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

Keep in mind that we've seen a lot of inflation in the last two years. That $531 today is about $480 in dollars equivalent to Solich's $589.

I do agree with the fact that it's not Ohio that is leading the way towards sky-high pay for MAC coaches. You can blame Toledo and WMU for that, and to a lesser extent, Buffalo and NIU.

Last Edited: 1/11/2023 7:07:47 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

TWT
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 7:44:12 PM

L.C. wrote:

M.D.W.S.T wrote:

Solich was for quite some time the highest paid coach in the MAC. What happened as he got older he just decided to go to a yearly contract and play it by ear depending on his health. Albin steps into a situation where he is functionally an interim coach so no reason to pay him more than Frank was making. But his program is building accolades.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

mf279801
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RE: Extend Tim Albin

Posted: 1/11/2023 11:05:58 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Hey, I had a question...

Does anyone know if Tim Albin makes more than the University president?

And if so, how does giacomo feel about it?

He's hard to read, but I think he's a big supporter of paying Tim Albin not just more than the University President, but LOTS MORE

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