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Topic:  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle

Topic:  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/27/2023 2:48:33 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
I know some on here are ANGRY that TA isn't the highest paid coach in the MAC but all that is needed to show a commitment at the conference level is to get him into the Top 3 or 4 pay wise of the conference to be competitive....

Umm, what??? I haven't seen even one person suggest that he should be the top paid coach in the MAC, much less be angry that he is not. In my poll, the only option for a substantial raise was to move him up to the 3rd highest paid in the MAC, and it was not a popular choice, gathering only 3 votes, making it less than the combined 4 for the two choices at the other extreme, taking his contract to expiration with no extension or raise, and encouraging him to leave. I lump them together, because doing the former would certainly encourage the latter.

BA is pretty much divided between people who think he should get a small extension and a small raise, and those who think we should wait a year. Myself, I'm in the camp to give him job security by extending his contract a year, and giving him a small raise to keep up with inflation. As I showed above, keeping a good choice happy by giving him job security and small raises is usually much less expensive than hiring a new coach to replace him.


I wasn't referring to you here I was referring to what I've been reading on the board from various sources.

-We should pay the most for a FB HC as the best MAC academic school.
-Up the pay to keep TA away from a low level P5.
-We should be paying more than god dam Toledo.
-TA should have been extended yesterday (+l).

Then listing budget numbers without using an official source. The equity in athletic website has Ohio at 21.6 million off the 2020-2021 reporting year. Note that it was a pandemic year and much of the reason why its lower is that enrollment was down reducing the student fees. Student fees are listed in maximum but work more like a draw. They tap what they need to for operations.

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/search

That is why I'm saying if you go by the assumption Ohio doesn't want to significantly increase the budget and you use a rule of thumb that 10% is about the max Ohio would be willing to pay based on that budget than 2-2.2 million is the most Ohio could within reason pay on the size of the budget it has at the moment. That is a rubric on the high end or making TA the highest paid coach or within the Top 4 or top half which is closer to what you've suggested.

Many fans out there (not necessarily here) have their athletic egos tied to how much their coach is being paid. A reflection as to what level they are on. AAC pays their coaches higher than the MAC somewhat because of higher commitment level (they have the highest average student fees) but also due to athletic ego.

Its entirely possible the next Ohio president could decide to forget the small time approach we will pay for the hydro pools out of budget, finance the basketball practice facility and pay our HC football/basketball coaches 2 million plus per season. Pump the budget up to 35 or 40 million. But this is not the current stance in the athletic department at this moment.

Last Edited: 1/27/2023 2:49:27 PM by Campus Flow


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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 9:22:34 AM 
I agree with your assessment. We simply don’t have a big enough metro market to spend big money on athletics and make it work. Please answer this question: wouldn’t football and basketball games be a big social event in Athens County? I read where the population is 62k. Add in the student population and alumns that drive in from Columbus and such. Why can’t we sell out or get close to that for most games? If we did you could make some argument to spend more money. But even if we did, would that push us into profitability?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 1:20:40 PM 
giacomo wrote:
...But even if we did, would that push us into profitability?

No, not as "profitability" is normally defined here. That brings us to the question of why does Ohio have football at all? In fact, why do any G5 schools have football? Is it because there is a huge demand for football amongst the students? Does the faculty love football? Does the town love football? Is it mandatory that all universities must offer football?

The answer to all of the above could all be arguably answered in the negative. Students seem to enjoy football a little as a part of the fall atmosphere, but most definitely don't love it, based on the fact that many leave at the half, if they come at all. Most of the faculty seem opposed to football. If the town loved football, as you point out, there are enough people in the county that every game could be a sellout, but they are not. Most universities do seem to offer some football, but many top academic schools limit it to Division III, such as MIT, Claremont, or U. Chicago. Unlike dropping to FCS, a drop all the way to Division III does save money, a lot of money. Going to FCS seems to result in a worse financial situation, and many FCS schools seem to want to move up to FBS at the first opportunity, so a drop to FCS would probably be a bad idea.

So, that brings us back to the question of why do schools play football at all, if it is a money losing proposition with few benefits? There is only one plausible answer, as far as I am concerned, and that has to do with benefits that are harder to quantify. During my lifetime, a major shift has happened. Fifty years ago, most football powers were not top schools academically. There were schools notable for academics, and schools notable for football, and the two were very rarely both present in the same place. A few schools known for academics, such as Northwestern and Vanderbilt, could be found in major football conferences, but they were the exception, not the rule.

Today, the situation is very different. Contributions have flooded into the coffers of football powers, causing massive growth in their endowments, and also resulting in a boom of new building construction, both leading to a significant change to their academic reputations. Today, most of the B1G schools are known for having excellent facilities, excellent academics, and are known as excellent research institutions. This, in my opinion, is why schools are willing to lose money on G5 football: They believe that it makes them a more credible institution, and attracts donations to their general fund, and boosts their endowment. I think it galls Ohio administrators tremendously when a wealthy Ohio alum makes a huge donation to OSU simply because, after a lifetime of being an OSU fan, they feel a closer connection to OSU than to their own school.

If the above paragraph is true, then the problem with the statement that "Ohio football operates at a huge loss" is that it doesn't account for any effect that might happen to general giving for the University. When Ohio administrators elect to make a raise in pay to football or basketball coaches, or to offer either sport at all in the first place, I presume they are factoring in their knowledge of interactions with alums and donors, and their presumed impression of what would happen to general giving in the absence of the sports. Since they have more specific knowledge than I do, I tend to defer to their decisions, unless they made some decision that appears outrageous, such as paying a coach $2m a year, or something similar. With only 5 football coaches in FBS paid less than Albin, that certainly isn't the case.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 2:47:44 PM 
Its more simple than that. Athletics have been at Ohio for over 100 years. Basketball has been a point of pride for the university since The Convo was built and before that time the alumni base was not very large or the factor it became in giving. President Glidden hired in 1995 who was provost at Florida State wanted to invest in football to also make a source of pride for the university.

The changes have been more gradual than what they were at Cincinnati over that same time period. UC thought bigger and moved into CUSA then the Big East. Others who joined CUSA at then like Southern Miss and East Carolina over time lost recruiting power to new schools in the Sun Belt. UC though had higher level basketball while improving its football.

Some of the football development from the 1995 perspective was defensive in nature in case the MAC fell apart. At this point Ohio football has a good track record and quite frankly the 10 wins and bowl victory are not that big of a deal anymore as some are trying to make it out to be. Program has been in a bowl game 12 of the last 14 years.


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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 3:23:17 PM 
We can still have football and pay the coach a reasonable sum. I think 350-500 is the right number. If a coach wants to leave for greener pastures, fine. We won’t have any trouble getting someone at that number. It appears we will always have middling fan support and attendance. Fine.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 5:09:14 PM 
giacomo wrote:
We can still have football and pay the coach a reasonable sum. I think 350-500 is the right number. If a coach wants to leave for greener pastures, fine. We won’t have any trouble getting someone at that number. It appears we will always have middling fan support and attendance. Fine.

Perhaps. The average salary for new head coaches in the MAC $627k, based on the last four hires:
Burns, Kent, $540k
Moorhead, Akron, $500k
Linguist, Buffalo, $675k
Taylor, WMU, $850k

Regardless of whether Ohio keeps Albin or hires someone new, I think Ohio will be looking at higher wages in the future than they are paying now.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 6:12:19 PM 
L.C. wrote:
giacomo wrote:
We can still have football and pay the coach a reasonable sum. I think 350-500 is the right number. If a coach wants to leave for greener pastures, fine. We won’t have any trouble getting someone at that number. It appears we will always have middling fan support and attendance. Fine.

Perhaps. The average salary for new head coaches in the MAC $627k, based on the last four hires:
Burns, Kent, $540k
Moorhead, Akron, $500k
Linguist, Buffalo, $675k
Taylor, WMU, $850k

Regardless of whether Ohio keeps Albin or hires someone new, I think Ohio will be looking at higher wages in the future than they are paying now.


An economy where the long term inflation target is 2%+ also.


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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 8:13:16 PM 
giacomo wrote:
We can still have football and pay the coach a reasonable sum. I think 350-500 is the right number. If a coach wants to leave for greener pastures, fine. We won’t have any trouble getting someone at that number. It appears we will always have middling fan support and attendance. Fine.


Are you serious? You want to pay 350 k for a football coach? Do you think Boals would coach for that amount? This university has always been a basketball first university, and Solich and now Albin have moved this football program in a forward direction. The basketball program plays 17 home games annually, which is consistently more than other league school. This university puts a priority on basketball. The Convo is the premier arena in the MAC. Shouldn't fans and alums expect more in the regular season? Maybe Bobcat supporters don't care what happens during 30 plus regular season games. Maybe fans are content with Kent, Akron and Buffalo ending up at the top of the East the past 20 plus seasons in basketball. Maybe the only thing that Bobcat basketball fans care about is a second opportunity in the league tourney?
The Bobcat football team has won five MAC East titles since 2005. Ohio's basketball team has zero MAC East championships since the Larry Hunter days. Of course Ohio's basketball has won MAC tourney championships, but the football team doesn't get a second chance, when they end up fifth or ninth overall in league standings. The regular season is of very little importance in basketball. I'm not saying the university should pay a head coach in basketball or football a million bucks, but $350 K? Maybe you forget the Lichty and Cleve years in football?

Last Edited: 1/28/2023 8:32:22 PM by Bobcat1996

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 9:45:56 PM 
350k or 1 million its comparing 1 bag of peanuts to 3 bags of peanuts. Its not as an important as the length of the extension the bonuses (BTW I read Candle is up to 1.5 million with bonuses) and where the salary ranks relative in the conference.


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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 11:03:07 PM 
Me thinks some on this board have a Thorstein Veblen complex. You equate high coaching salaries with prestige.

Last Edited: 1/29/2023 8:33:41 AM by giacomo

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/28/2023 11:29:29 PM 
Bobcat1996 wrote:
giacomo wrote:
We can still have football and pay the coach a reasonable sum. I think 350-500 is the right number. If a coach wants to leave for greener pastures, fine. We won’t have any trouble getting someone at that number. It appears we will always have middling fan support and attendance. Fine.


Are you serious? You want to pay 350 k for a football coach? Do you think Boals would coach for that amount? This university has always been a basketball first university, and Solich and now Albin have moved this football program in a forward direction. The basketball program plays 17 home games annually, which is consistently more than other league school. This university puts a priority on basketball. The Convo is the premier arena in the MAC. Shouldn't fans and alums expect more in the regular season? Maybe Bobcat supporters don't care what happens during 30 plus regular season games. Maybe fans are content with Kent, Akron and Buffalo ending up at the top of the East the past 20 plus seasons in basketball. Maybe the only thing that Bobcat basketball fans care about is a second opportunity in the league tourney?
The Bobcat football team has won five MAC East titles since 2005. Ohio's basketball team has zero MAC East championships since the Larry Hunter days. Of course Ohio's basketball has won MAC tourney championships, but the football team doesn't get a second chance, when they end up fifth or ninth overall in league standings. The regular season is of very little importance in basketball. I'm not saying the university should pay a head coach in basketball or football a million bucks, but $350 K? Maybe you forget the Lichty and Cleve years in football?


A real basketball school pays its HC $3 million dollars and is in the tournament every year. Ohio is not a basketball school but basketball is a point of pride for the alums and largely due to The Convo.

The presidents were behind the decision to move the football program forward but its all been defensive moves chipping into the problem here and there instead of getting aggressive about it like UC did by dropping $100 million on facilities all at once.

Despite only spending next to the minimum Ohio has won its last 4 bowl appearances and 3 NCAA first round games. Has another MAC school even done that before no so this in my estimation is the new normal. A down year in basketball is now winning less than 20 and a down year in football is not winning the bowl game. Any coach in the country could get Ohio into a bowl game these days. Can they win the MAC though? TA and Frank couldn't do it and their regime isn't essential for success.


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 8:58:40 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Me thinks some on this board have a Thorstein Veblen complex. You equate high coaching salaries with prestige.

I'm not sure who you are referring to here. There is no "prestige" in paying a high salary. Rather, for every job, there is a necessity to pay a market salary if you want a qualified person, and you want a reasonable expectation that the job will be done well.

Say your car needs some major work, and you go to a repair shop and they want $4,000 for the work. Could you go search around and find someone with limited experience, willing to take $2000 for the same work? Yes. Would it be done right? Maybe, maybe not. If you did this, and ended up screwing up the family car, would your wife "fire" you? Maybe. Might it end up costing more in the end, when you factor in the costs of not having a car, and having to pay again to fix the problem right? Maybe. Would it have been wiser, if you couldn't afford to fix the car properly, to forego the car and use a bike? Perhaps.

If the market rate for a qualified coaching candidate is $550k, could Ohio find someone who would accept the coaching job for $350k a year? Yes. Would they be a good recruiter and a good coach, and win games? Maybe, maybe not. If the AD went this route, and ended up screwing up the program, would the AD get fired? Maybe. Might it end up costing more in the end, when you factor in the costs of lost attendance, lost alumni support, and having to pay more to buy out a bad coach and hire a new one? Maybe. Would it have been wiser, if Ohio can't afford to pay a market rate to pay a coach, to forego FBC football and drop to Division III? Perhaps.


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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 9:46:21 AM 
Campus Flow wrote:
Trying to create a rule of thumb, Clemson pays its HC 10 million against a total budget of 108 million. 10% of athletic budget then is about the absolute max a coach will be paid. OU's budget is 21.6 million so the most OU could pay a HC using that rule of thumb would be 2 million. However 2 million is not going to be enough to keep him over a lower level P5/High level G5 that pay around 3-4 million per year.

Dayton is bigger than Toledo if you compare Montgomery County to Lucas County in population and the Toledo MSA is one of the poorest in the country so I totally doubt its size is a factor. Toledo's enrollment is way down also.

Albin is on the lower end of the pay spectrum for the MAC because he was an internal hire and only 2 years as HC. He wasn't given the exact salary he has because OU couldn't afford a penny more. It was what was fair at the moment he was hired.


The question at Clemson has to be how much of that salary comes out of the budget or from private sources. My bet is a very big chunk
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 11:04:06 AM 
L.C. wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Me thinks some on this board have a Thorstein Veblen complex. You equate high coaching salaries with prestige.

I'm not sure who you are referring to here. There is no "prestige" in paying a high salary. Rather, for every job, there is a necessity to pay a market salary if you want a qualified person, and you want a reasonable expectation that the job will be done well.

Say your car needs some major work, and you go to a repair shop and they want $4,000 for the work. Could you go search around and find someone with limited experience, willing to take $2000 for the same work? Yes. Would it be done right? Maybe, maybe not. If you did this, and ended up screwing up the family car, would your wife "fire" you? Maybe. Might it end up costing more in the end, when you factor in the costs of not having a car, and having to pay again to fix the problem right? Maybe. Would it have been wiser, if you couldn't afford to fix the car properly, to forego the car and use a bike? Perhaps.

If the market rate for a qualified coaching candidate is $550k, could Ohio find someone who would accept the coaching job for $350k a year? Yes. Would they be a good recruiter and a good coach, and win games? Maybe, maybe not. If the AD went this route, and ended up screwing up the program, would the AD get fired? Maybe. Might it end up costing more in the end, when you factor in the costs of lost attendance, lost alumni support, and having to pay more to buy out a bad coach and hire a new one? Maybe. Would it have been wiser, if Ohio can't afford to pay a market rate to pay a coach, to forego FBC football and drop to Division III? Perhaps.


He's right though that Ohio could get a coach in here for 350k-500k and take the program to a bowl game. TA is close to an example of this slightly above that range. Its so much easier to do today with 12 game schedule and technology not to mention having an IPF for development.


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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 3:30:59 PM 
The college football landscape has and is changing rapidly. As some have mentioned in earlier posts, paying the outrageous coaching salaries was part of the “non financial compensation” that’s been going on until recently for the players. Upgrading facilities, food lounges and the idea that a program had the best coaches because they are paid the highest salaries is fast fading. NIL is changing all that and more changes on the way. We likely won’t be able to compete with the big boys because our market is not very big. A weekly Burrito Buggy stipend and a free admission to the Athena won’t get us the best players. So paying a coach “market” money makes no sense. A salary of 350-500 makes the coach one of the highest paid at the university. We likely get an up and comer who leaves either after failure or success. Or we get a guy who likes Athens and wants to be a lifer. I think you can live pretty good in Athens on 350-500k.

Last Edited: 1/29/2023 3:32:10 PM by giacomo

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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 6:20:51 PM 
"L.C. wrote:
This is what I found on MAC coaches pay, compiles from a variety of sources, so it may not be accurate:

1. Candle, Toledo $1.1
2. Taylor, WMU $850k
3. McElwain, CMU $840k
4. Linguist, Buffalo $675k
5. Hammock, NIU $631k
6. Creighton, EMU $540k
7. Burns, Kent $540k
8. Martin, Miami $533k
9. Albin, Ohio $531k
10. Loeffler, BG $525k
11. Moorhead, Akron $500k
12. Neu, Ball State $453k
..

Based on research I did for another thread, it appears that in addition to Loeffler, Moorhead, and Neu, there are two other coaches in FBS making less than Albin, and interestingly, both are former MAC coaches:
Chuck Martin, New Mexico St, $437k
Terry Bowden, ULM, $430k

Thus, the bottom 6 coaches in FBS are:
Bowden, 430k
Martin 437K
Neu 453k
Moorhead 500k
Loeffler 525k
Albin 531k "


Gio and Campus Flow think you can pay a head football coach in Athens 350 k. No league coach is paying that type of money for football coaches. Tell that to Coach Boals. Maybe Boals will agree to that salary? Ohio may not be a basketball school compared to Xavier or Dayton, but the head coach has a salary at the top of the MAC. The Bobcats consistently play more games in the Convo than they play on the road. You won't find other league schools having that type of home court advantage. See LC's chart above where Coach Albin stands salary wise. Nobody is saying to pay him SEC money. The Bobcats football program has won 5 league East titles since Albin and Solich have been at Ohio in the last 18 years. Say what you want, but that equates to better head coach pay than the bottom six salaries in FBS.

Last Edited: 1/29/2023 6:39:15 PM by Bobcat1996

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 7:11:33 PM 
Make your check payable to Ohio University Athletics. Memo line should say “ Coach Albin”.
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/29/2023 9:34:46 PM 
Bobcat1996 wrote:
"L.C. wrote:
Gio and Campus Flow think you can pay a head football coach in Athens 350 k. No league coach is paying that type of money for football coaches. Tell that to Coach Boals. Maybe Boals will agree to that salary? Ohio may not be a basketball school compared to Xavier or Dayton, but the head coach has a salary at the top of the MAC. The Bobcats consistently play more games in the Convo than they play on the road. You won't find other league schools having that type of home court advantage.


The Bobcats could be up there with Xavier if they would invest in facilities and consistently finish at the top of the MAC. Pay Boals more competitively. Its all possible but won't happen so long as we have a lame duck university president in place.


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 8:48:10 AM 
Campus Flow wrote:
He's right though that Ohio could get a coach in here for 350k-500k and take the program to a bowl game. TA is close to an example of this slightly above that range. Its so much easier to do today with 12 game schedule and technology not to mention having an IPF for development.

Albin is a coach who was paid in the normal range of FBS salaries, albeit at the lower end of the FBS range, because of the unusual starting situation, but who also had the advantage of continuity with the staff and players. It's quite a leap of logic to go from there to say that "If Ohio can go to a bowl with a coach paid at the lower end of the range of typical starting salaries, that shows that they can go to a bowl, even with a new coach hired with no continuity, and at substantially lower pay than any other FBS coach in America."

Could it happen? Sure. Could it happen that they would stuck for four years with a losing coach? Absolutely. But, if it did happen, then what? Then you are back to the point were the coach would be gone in a flash, unless he was raised up to within the normal FBS pay range. So, any good hires would leave quickly, and any bad hires would stick around for the full four years (unless Ohio paid to buy them out, which would defeat the point, since buying coaches out is even more expensive than paying a competitive salary in the first place).

Thus, paying far less than any other school in America virtually guarantees that, sooner or later, Ohio will be mired with a bad coaches for 4 years years at a time, perhaps with a good year mixed in occasionally. If Ohio football becomes like Akron football, it seems logical that attendance would fall to their level, which is about 9,000 per game (which is pretty good for a horrible team). That's a drop of about 7,000 a game from where they are now. If Ohio averages $10/ticket, that is $70k per game, or $420k for the year, dwarfing any savings on coaching staff.

If saving money is the goal, that will never work. The one thing that will work to really save money is to drop to Division 3, or NAIA. Then coaching salary can fall to perhaps $100-150k, plus it eliminates a lot of expenses in all aspects of the program, but also means that the foes are also focused on saving money, so the games are going to be competitive, and there is no reason to expect that Ohio will not have a chance to win. Will attendance drop? Sure, but the drop in expenses will be even greater than the loss of revenue. As I pointed out earlier, schools like U. Chicago (formerly in the Big Ten), Claremont, and M.I.T. have taken this approach. That way they have football in the air in the fall, but not at a huge expense.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 10:31:33 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
He's right though that Ohio could get a coach in here for 350k-500k and take the program to a bowl game. TA is close to an example of this slightly above that range. Its so much easier to do today with 12 game schedule and technology not to mention having an IPF for development.

Albin is a coach who was paid in the normal range of FBS salaries, albeit at the lower end of the FBS range, because of the unusual starting situation, but who also had the advantage of continuity with the staff and players. It's quite a leap of logic to go from there to say that "If Ohio can go to a bowl with a coach paid at the lower end of the range of typical starting salaries, that shows that they can go to a bowl, even with a new coach hired with no continuity, and at substantially lower pay than any other FBS coach in America."

Could it happen? Sure. Could it happen that they would stuck for four years with a losing coach? Absolutely. But, if it did happen, then what? Then you are back to the point were the coach would be gone in a flash, unless he was raised up to within the normal FBS pay range. So, any good hires would leave quickly, and any bad hires would stick around for the full four years (unless Ohio paid to buy them out, which would defeat the point, since buying coaches out is even more expensive than paying a competitive salary in the first place).

Thus, paying far less than any other school in America virtually guarantees that, sooner or later, Ohio will be mired with a bad coaches for 4 years years at a time, perhaps with a good year mixed in occasionally. If Ohio football becomes like Akron football, it seems logical that attendance would fall to their level, which is about 9,000 per game (which is pretty good for a horrible team). That's a drop of about 7,000 a game from where they are now. If Ohio averages $10/ticket, that is $70k per game, or $420k for the year, dwarfing any savings on coaching staff.

If saving money is the goal, that will never work. The one thing that will work to really save money is to drop to Division 3, or NAIA. Then coaching salary can fall to perhaps $100-150k, plus it eliminates a lot of expenses in all aspects of the program, but also means that the foes are also focused on saving money, so the games are going to be competitive, and there is no reason to expect that Ohio will not have a chance to win. Will attendance drop? Sure, but the drop in expenses will be even greater than the loss of revenue. As I pointed out earlier, schools like U. Chicago (formerly in the Big Ten), Claremont, and M.I.T. have taken this approach. That way they have football in the air in the fall, but not at a huge expense.


I'm at it at an angle that 350k can still buy you a good head coach. It is so easy to make a bowl at 6-6 or 5-7 that any of these coaches could make it happen at least once in the 4-5 years in Athens. Our attendance and giving is not as sensitive to performance as most fans are casual and are there for the event like Band Day or Homecoming more so than the football game.

Further judging last years performance remember that TA had MAC player of the year and MAC freshman of the year. Without Kurtis Ohio barely won its bowl game and looked more the part of an 8 win team than one that had rolled off 10 victories. To say TA has proved himself essential that he must be extended immediately is a step too far. Candle picked up an extension but he won the MAC so that was fair.


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 11:24:57 AM 
If your employer replaced you with someone making 40% less, is it possible they would get someone better than you? Perhaps. Is it possible they would get someone terrible. Obviously that is possible, too.

The same goes for coaches. At 350k, yes, Ohio could get a coach. That would be a mid-FCS salary, so you'd think you could get a coach that would be the equivalent of one applying for an FCS job with limited experience. Would they be really good? Perhaps. Would they be terrible? Perhaps. As I said above, yes, occasionally they would be good, and Ohio would go to a bowl. Then what? They would expect to be raised up to an FBS salary, or they would be gone, and you are back where you started. When you pay well under the market price, the good ones leave, and the bad ones stay for the full length of the contract.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 1:27:04 PM 












Solich, Frank Head Football Coach N/A FOOTBALL $530,935.00
Boals, Jeffrey Donald Head Men's Basketball Coach N/A MENS BASKETBALL $522,900.00
Nellis, Marvin Duane (M.Duane) President Professor PRESIDENT $415,953.00
Sayrs, Elizabeth P Executive Vice President and Provost Professor PROVOST $321,938.00
Johnson, Kenneth Executive Dean and Chief Medical Affairs Officer Professor EXECUTIVE DEAN $317,551.00
Shaffer, Deborah J Senior Vice President for Finance and Administration, CFO and Treasurer N/A OFFICE OF CFO $294,953.00
Karagosian, Nicolas M (Nico) Vice President for University Advancement and President and CEO of The Ohio University Foundation N/A VP UNIVERSITY ADVANCEMENT $276,791.00
Wei, Mei Dean Professor ENGINEERING DEANS OFFICE $274,500.00
Sherman, Hugh D Dean, College of Business Professor DEAN'S OFFICE $257,056.00
Kopchick, John Joseph Goll Ohio Eminent Scholar Distinguished Professor BIOMEDICAL SCIENCES $255,546.00

This from 2020. A salary range for a coach between 350 and 500k will have them in the top for the university. At our level, the coach should not make more than the president. Spending more will not get you more. It's been proven over time with attendance numbers.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 2:10:57 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Solich, Frank Head Football Coach N/A FOOTBALL $530,935.00
Boals, Jeffrey Donald Head Men's Basketball Coach N/A MENS BASKETBALL $522,900.00
Nellis, Marvin Duane (M.Duane) President Professor PRESIDENT $415,953.00
Sayrs, Elizabeth P Executive Vice President and Provost Professor PROVOST $321,938.00
Johnson, Kenneth Executive Dean and Chief Medical Affairs Officer Professor EXECUTIVE DEAN $317,551.00
Shaffer, Deborah J Senior Vice President for Finance and Administration, CFO and Treasurer N/A OFFICE OF CFO $294,953.00
Karagosian, Nicolas M (Nico) Vice President for University Advancement and President and CEO of The Ohio University Foundation N/A VP UNIVERSITY ADVANCEMENT $276,791.00
Wei, Mei Dean Professor ENGINEERING DEANS OFFICE $274,500.00
Sherman, Hugh D Dean, College of Business Professor DEAN'S OFFICE $257,056.00
Kopchick, John Joseph Goll Ohio Eminent Scholar Distinguished Professor BIOMEDICAL SCIENCES $255,546.00

This from 2020. A salary range for a coach between 350 and 500k will have them in the top for the university. At our level, the coach should not make more than the president. Spending more will not get you more. It's been proven over time with attendance numbers.


If you want to pay $350-500K for a head football coach, be prepared to drop down a division. This argument that a football coach shouldn't make more than the president is old and tiresome. While it may be correct in the grand scheme of things academically, it's just not how this sport works at this level anymore. You want to keep with the Joneses, these are the sacrifices you have to make. The only way to stop spending more on football is switching to FCS. In fact, no talent worth their salt would accept that contract.
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 3:38:01 PM 
Agree 100% GoCats! Also Boals salary is about $700 K. Guessing when Boals eventually departs Athens, the next guy will be paid more than $700 K.

Last Edited: 1/30/2023 3:39:33 PM by Bobcat1996

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: University of Toledo Announces Contract Extension for Head Coach Jason Candle
   Posted: 1/30/2023 4:58:10 PM 
L.C. wrote:
If your employer replaced you with someone making 40% less, is it possible they would get someone better than you? Perhaps. Is it possible they would get someone terrible. Obviously that is possible, too.

The same goes for coaches. At 350k, yes, Ohio could get a coach. That would be a mid-FCS salary, so you'd think you could get a coach that would be the equivalent of one applying for an FCS job with limited experience. Would they be really good? Perhaps. Would they be terrible? Perhaps. As I said above, yes, occasionally they would be good, and Ohio would go to a bowl. Then what? They would expect to be raised up to an FBS salary, or they would be gone, and you are back where you started. When you pay well under the market price, the good ones leave, and the bad ones stay for the full length of the contract.


350k is an upper tier salary for FCS. The MAC as a rule of thumb pays its coaches about 2x the FCS going rate since it is a higher level and that does afford the MAC a quality coach if they are dipping into the FCS ranks looking for one. The angle I agree with giacomo on is you could get a a high quality coach in the 350k-500k range. Kent did it with Sean Lewis and now of course he's moved on for more money as an assistant.

The question is what kind of coach is TA? Is see him as an 8-9 win type coach at this point rather than a 6-6 guy. 675k-850k is a fair on the next extension which places him in the Top 4 in the MAC. I just don't see him as a 10-12 win coach that the university has to extend ASAP.

If he won the MAC Championship by 30, the bowl by 30 and signed the #1 recruiting class in the MAC that would be different.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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