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Topic:  We are #182

Topic:  We are #182
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  We are #182
   Posted: 5/15/2023 8:51:29 AM 
US News

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-un...

Last Edited: 5/15/2023 8:55:22 AM by giacomo

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Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/15/2023 1:06:35 PM 
How does this compare to recent years?
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/16/2023 8:51:03 AM 
I seem to recall that we were in the 170s last year.

To spice up this thread, what if:

- Peden seated 58,000 and we were in the ACC?

- we paid our coaches 1M plus?

- we had better soft pretzels and hand dryers at our venues?

- Swanky’s was still uptown and you get a cup of coffee at the Woolworth’s lunch counter?
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CatsUp
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Post Count: 730

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/16/2023 10:16:56 AM 
Add Hungry Mouth bean burritos and vinegar fries and I think that should do it.
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greencat
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Member Since: 3/12/2005
Post Count: 2,034

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/16/2023 1:25:04 PM 
Swanky's?

Didn't the guy who looked like Frank Zappa who owned it pass away?

If Buzzy Linhart and Secret Hotcakes were still around to play there....
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Kevin Finnegan
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Location: Rockton, IL
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/16/2023 1:32:01 PM 
Seems like US News should list historical rankings on each school's site so that trends can be identified.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/16/2023 2:10:02 PM 
greencat wrote:
Swanky's?

Didn't the guy who looked like Frank Zappa who owned it pass away?

If Buzzy Linhart and Secret Hotcakes were still around to play there....


Sadly yes, back in 2018.

https://woub.org/2019/06/12/celebrate-the-life-of-ivan-fa... /

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/17/2023 4:18:07 PM 
The overall USNWR ranking has drifted downward 2005 but the STEM field rankings have moved up and posted impressive graduate school rankings considering their are 765 accredited engineering schools and 350 that offer Physics, 1024 that offer Chemistry and 324 that offer graduate level math.

Industrial Engineering 75th
Physics 95th
Chemical Engineering 109th
Chemistry 119th
Civil Engineering 127th
Electrical Engineering 137th
Mathematics 144th
Mechanical Engineering 151st
Computer Science 152nd

https://www.ohio.edu/news/2023/04/numerous-graduate-progr...

Then HCOM was recently ranked 49th best medical school for primary care 49th out of 195 combined MD/DO schools for a Top 25% ranking, particularly impressive listing that high as a DO.

https://www.ohio.edu/news/2023/05/ohio-university-heritag...



Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/17/2023 4:42:26 PM 
Ranking #2 on most beautiful campus quads is more important that a composite USNWR score that ranks Ohio lower than Quinnipiac and Mercer using statistical areas that don't matter.

https://www.ohio.edu/news/2021/09/ohio-ranked-second-nati...


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/17/2023 4:51:16 PM 
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/18/2023 11:55:02 AM 
College factual has Ohio ranked #32 out of #236. Some publications have the J school in the Top 10.

https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/communication-journ... /


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/18/2023 12:45:21 PM 
How about a new ranking for colleges that are Top 50 in primary care, journalism and campus quad? Sorting them here by lowest ranking.

Medical+Journalism+Quad
1)Baylor (31+25+12)=68
2)Maryland (22+8+39)=69
3)Wisconsin (26+2+48)=76
4)Boston University (38+6+35)=79
5)Ohio (49+32+2)=83

Ohio is Top 5 by this criteria and a much higher peer set than USNWR.

Conclusion: Ohio should be ranked higher than Miami as it is greatly so in all 3 of those categories.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/19/2023 9:51:36 AM 
I'm pretty sure that's still last year's undergraduate rankings. New ones come out towards the end of Summer. They did just release a new ranking of grad and professional schools though.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/20/2023 9:56:15 AM 
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/21/2023 12:06:59 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/21/2023 2:41:43 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.


Don't disagree, OUPride, but I will point out that OHIO is vastly better in graduate and professional education. Does this ranking not focus on undergraduate education? If not, then that means that there is even a bigger gap between OHIO and Miami in the undergraduate arena, since we would certainly rank way above them in graduate and professional education. That being said, I always take these kinds of rankings with a grain of salt, though some parents and families don't know that they are not really very reliable.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/21/2023 3:52:10 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.


Don't disagree, OUPride, but I will point out that OHIO is vastly better in graduate and professional education. Does this ranking not focus on undergraduate education? If not, then that means that there is even a bigger gap between OHIO and Miami in the undergraduate arena, since we would certainly rank way above them in graduate and professional education. That being said, I always take these kinds of rankings with a grain of salt, though some parents and families don't know that they are not really very reliable.


It is the undergraduate rankings, although I think Ohio should be closer than we are and ahead of Cincinnati. FWIW, these are the grad school rankings for Miami and Ohio that just came out. Neither does too great, which I blame on the redundant system that arose in the 60s and for which Vern Alden deserves a lot of the blame.

MIAMI
Unranked in Best Business Schools

#120inPart-time MBA (tie)

#80inBest Education Schools (tie)

#158inBiological Sciences (tie)

#150inChemistry (tie)

#120inClinical Psychology (tie)

#83inEarth Sciences (tie)

#89inEnglish (tie)

#158inBest Fine Arts Programs (tie)

#140inPsychology (tie)

#163inSocial Work (tie)

#55inSpeech-Language Pathology (tie)


OHIO
UnrankedinBest Business Schools

#144inPart-time MBA (tie)

#145inBest Education Schools (tie)

#142inBest Engineering Schools (tie)

#114inBest Medical Schools: Research

#110inMost Diverse Medical Schools (tie)

#99inMost Graduates Practicing in Medically Underserved Areas

#21inMost Graduates Practicing in Primary Care Fields

#26inMost Graduates Practicing in Rural Areas

#49inBest Medical Schools: Primary Care

Unranked
inBest Nursing Schools: Master's

UnrankedinBest Nursing Schools: Doctor of Nursing Practice

#46inAudiology (tie)

#186inBiological Sciences (tie)

#119inChemistry (tie)

#88inClinical Psychology (tie)

#152inComputer Science (tie)

#108inEnglish (tie)

#32inBest Fine Arts Programs (tie)
#3inCeramics
#8inPrintmaking (tie)

#113inHistory (tie)

#144inMathematics (tie)

#57inPhysical Therapy (tie)

#142inPhysician Assistant (tie)

#95inPhysics (tie)

#122inPsychology (tie)

#57inBest Public Affairs Programs (tie)

#36inRehabilitation Counseling (tie)

#116inSocial Work (tie)

#45inSpeech-Language Pathology (tie)

Last Edited: 5/22/2023 10:55:07 AM by OUPride

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Campus Flow
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Location: Alexandria, VA
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/21/2023 10:36:29 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.


No Alan there really isn't 77 between Miami and Ohio because at those exact numbers Miami and Ohio are tied with several. Miami could be 114th and Ohio 177th if they weren't creating broad groupings which is 63 apart but we don't know because of these broad groupings. Further if Ohio moved up 8 positions in the rankings it would be tied with Miami.

This is more like the scenario in baseball where one team wins 85 and another 77. If the team that won 77 picked up 4 games and finished with 81 while the team that won 85 dropped 4 and finished with 81 they would be tied. This is how I view Miami's ranking at this point. They are what 49th in public school rankings. 25 years ago OU was 43rd while Miami was 22nd. Their relative decline is our gain.

For Ohio to move up in my estimation (beyond what is currently underway) it needs bumper freshan classes like was the case last year to steal the narrative away from UC/OSU/Miami. Offer more ammenties to students.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/22/2023 11:02:26 AM 
Campus Flow wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.


No Alan there really isn't 77 between Miami and Ohio because at those exact numbers Miami and Ohio are tied with several. Miami could be 114th and Ohio 177th if they weren't creating broad groupings which is 63 apart but we don't know because of these broad groupings. Further if Ohio moved up 8 positions in the rankings it would be tied with Miami.

This is more like the scenario in baseball where one team wins 85 and another 77. If the team that won 77 picked up 4 games and finished with 81 while the team that won 85 dropped 4 and finished with 81 they would be tied. This is how I view Miami's ranking at this point. They are what 49th in public school rankings. 25 years ago OU was 43rd while Miami was 22nd. Their relative decline is our gain.

For Ohio to move up in my estimation (beyond what is currently underway) it needs bumper freshan classes like was the case last year to steal the narrative away from UC/OSU/Miami. Offer more ammenties to students.


At the end of the day, if Ohio were to become tied with Miami, it would need to get better than and pass 70 something other schools. That's what matters.

As for freshman classes, yes that's important. We turned the tide this past year and had a nice enrollment surge. Did we really close any ground on Miami in the quality of the class though?

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/22/2023 3:57:57 PM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.


Don't disagree, OUPride, but I will point out that OHIO is vastly better in graduate and professional education. Does this ranking not focus on undergraduate education? If not, then that means that there is even a bigger gap between OHIO and Miami in the undergraduate arena, since we would certainly rank way above them in graduate and professional education. That being said, I always take these kinds of rankings with a grain of salt, though some parents and families don't know that they are not really very reliable.


It is the undergraduate rankings, although I think Ohio should be closer than we are and ahead of Cincinnati. FWIW, these are the grad school rankings for Miami and Ohio that just came out. Neither does too great, which I blame on the redundant system that arose in the 60s and for which Vern Alden deserves a lot of the blame.

MIAMI
Unranked in Best Business Schools

#120inPart-time MBA (tie)

#80inBest Education Schools (tie)

#158inBiological Sciences (tie)

#150inChemistry (tie)

#120inClinical Psychology (tie)

#83inEarth Sciences (tie)

#89inEnglish (tie)

#158inBest Fine Arts Programs (tie)

#140inPsychology (tie)

#163inSocial Work (tie)

#55inSpeech-Language Pathology (tie)


OHIO
UnrankedinBest Business Schools

#144inPart-time MBA (tie)

#145inBest Education Schools (tie)

#142inBest Engineering Schools (tie)

#114inBest Medical Schools: Research

#110inMost Diverse Medical Schools (tie)

#99inMost Graduates Practicing in Medically Underserved Areas

#21inMost Graduates Practicing in Primary Care Fields

#26inMost Graduates Practicing in Rural Areas

#49inBest Medical Schools: Primary Care

Unranked
inBest Nursing Schools: Master's

UnrankedinBest Nursing Schools: Doctor of Nursing Practice

#46inAudiology (tie)

#186inBiological Sciences (tie)

#119inChemistry (tie)

#88inClinical Psychology (tie)

#152inComputer Science (tie)

#108inEnglish (tie)

#32inBest Fine Arts Programs (tie)
#3inCeramics
#8inPrintmaking (tie)

#113inHistory (tie)

#144inMathematics (tie)

#57inPhysical Therapy (tie)

#142inPhysician Assistant (tie)

#95inPhysics (tie)

#122inPsychology (tie)

#57inBest Public Affairs Programs (tie)

#36inRehabilitation Counseling (tie)

#116inSocial Work (tie)

#45inSpeech-Language Pathology (tie)


Interesting list. I note that we have many graduate programs they don't offer, and they also don't have a medical school. OHIO is a much more diversified university in terms of the range of post-graduate offerings. This is, of course, by design, as Miami decided years ago to try to become a glorified, less expensive, version of a private liberal arts college -- a public ivy, so called.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
General User

Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/22/2023 4:44:51 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Campus Flow wrote:
How far are we really behind Miami and UC? IT seems like a lot but many of the universities are in fact tied in number.

105-Miami
115
121
127
137
151-Cincinnati
166
176
182-Ohio

Ohio is actually only 8 spots behind Miami because of all of the ties in the USNWR. They have more to lose by dropping because the main reason students attend is because of their perceived ranking.


I always chuckled when sports folks used your method of "place" in ranking teams. 10 team league, one is 9 and 0, and three are 7 and 2, and two are 5 and 4 and one (your team) is 3 and 6. You finish 7th in this scenario not fourth.



Yes. There are 77 schools in between Miami and Ohio. Rather than trying to finesse and spin that in a way that makes it seem better than it it, it would be more helpful to actually break down where Ohio lags and what it needs to do to close the gap.


Don't disagree, OUPride, but I will point out that OHIO is vastly better in graduate and professional education. Does this ranking not focus on undergraduate education? If not, then that means that there is even a bigger gap between OHIO and Miami in the undergraduate arena, since we would certainly rank way above them in graduate and professional education. That being said, I always take these kinds of rankings with a grain of salt, though some parents and families don't know that they are not really very reliable.


It is the undergraduate rankings, although I think Ohio should be closer than we are and ahead of Cincinnati. FWIW, these are the grad school rankings for Miami and Ohio that just came out. Neither does too great, which I blame on the redundant system that arose in the 60s and for which Vern Alden deserves a lot of the blame.

MIAMI
Unranked in Best Business Schools

#120inPart-time MBA (tie)

#80inBest Education Schools (tie)

#158inBiological Sciences (tie)

#150inChemistry (tie)

#120inClinical Psychology (tie)

#83inEarth Sciences (tie)

#89inEnglish (tie)

#158inBest Fine Arts Programs (tie)

#140inPsychology (tie)

#163inSocial Work (tie)

#55inSpeech-Language Pathology (tie)


OHIO
UnrankedinBest Business Schools

#144inPart-time MBA (tie)

#145inBest Education Schools (tie)

#142inBest Engineering Schools (tie)

#114inBest Medical Schools: Research

#110inMost Diverse Medical Schools (tie)

#99inMost Graduates Practicing in Medically Underserved Areas

#21inMost Graduates Practicing in Primary Care Fields

#26inMost Graduates Practicing in Rural Areas

#49inBest Medical Schools: Primary Care

Unranked
inBest Nursing Schools: Master's

UnrankedinBest Nursing Schools: Doctor of Nursing Practice

#46inAudiology (tie)

#186inBiological Sciences (tie)

#119inChemistry (tie)

#88inClinical Psychology (tie)

#152inComputer Science (tie)

#108inEnglish (tie)

#32inBest Fine Arts Programs (tie)
#3inCeramics
#8inPrintmaking (tie)

#113inHistory (tie)

#144inMathematics (tie)

#57inPhysical Therapy (tie)

#142inPhysician Assistant (tie)

#95inPhysics (tie)

#122inPsychology (tie)

#57inBest Public Affairs Programs (tie)

#36inRehabilitation Counseling (tie)

#116inSocial Work (tie)

#45inSpeech-Language Pathology (tie)


Interesting list. I note that we have many graduate programs they don't offer, and they also don't have a medical school. OHIO is a much more diversified university in terms of the range of post-graduate offerings. This is, of course, by design, as Miami decided years ago to try to become a glorified, less expensive, version of a private liberal arts college -- a public ivy, so called.


I've never understood the whole liberal arts college schtick. Something like 60% of their students major in business or education. Yes, they have some basic arts and science requirements, but so does every respectable university in the country. I'll grant them "undergraduate focused," but in no way are they a liberal arts college.

Ohio does have a much broader based selection of graduate and professional degrees. I'd like to see a lot more of them reach into the top 100 though.

If I could magically put the toothpaste back into the tube, this is how I would have restructured the system in the 1960s. Just make the damned deal with the devil and anoint OSU as the flagship. It's what they were before Rhodes and what they quickly reasserted themselves as after Rhodes. Ohio becomes the system's other comprehensive research university and is given medical and law schools at that time. Ohio, OSU and Miami are granted selective admissions and let the chips fall where they may. Toledo and Akron are merged into Bowling Green and Kent. They are limited grad/research universities with open admissions undergraduate. When Cincinnati comes into the system in the late 70s, they would be a second comprehensive research university alongside Ohio. Wright and later Shawnee are probably never founded. Also, no branch campuses. The state has a statewide community college system.

EDIT: And regarding "public ivy" that was the result of some long forgotten book that came out in the early 80's. It had no methodology and was the completely subjective opinion of one guy who included Miami and Vermont over far more likely choices like Wisconsin, Illinois or Washington as a means to gin up a little controversy and talk. As I've mentioned, I had to spend a miserable weekend researching Miami's claim that they had been anointed as "the honors campus of the university system." They were desperately trying to get OSU's selective admissions rolled back and Ohio's killed in the womb. It was all a myth. There wasn't a single piece of legislation or executive action by a Governor or Regents Chair that ever did that.

Last Edited: 5/22/2023 4:55:40 PM by OUPride

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/22/2023 10:46:55 PM 
OUPride wrote:
I've never understood the whole liberal arts college schtick. Something like 60% of their students major in business or education. Yes, they have some basic arts and science requirements, but so does every respectable university in the country. I'll grant them "undergraduate focused," but in no way are they a liberal arts college.

Ohio does have a much broader based selection of graduate and professional degrees. I'd like to see a lot more of them reach into the top 100 though.

If I could magically put the toothpaste back into the tube, this is how I would have restructured the system in the 1960s. Just make the damned deal with the devil and anoint OSU as the flagship. It's what they were before Rhodes and what they quickly reasserted themselves as after Rhodes. Ohio becomes the system's other comprehensive research university and is given medical and law schools at that time. Ohio, OSU and Miami are granted selective admissions and let the chips fall where they may. Toledo and Akron are merged into Bowling Green and Kent. They are limited grad/research universities with open admissions undergraduate. When Cincinnati comes into the system in the late 70s, they would be a second comprehensive research university alongside Ohio. Wright and later Shawnee are probably never founded. Also, no branch campuses. The state has a statewide community college system.

EDIT: And regarding "public ivy" that was the result of some long forgotten book that came out in the early 80's. It had no methodology and was the completely subjective opinion of one guy who included Miami and Vermont over far more likely choices like Wisconsin, Illinois or Washington as a means to gin up a little controversy and talk. As I've mentioned, I had to spend a miserable weekend researching Miami's claim that they had been anointed as "the honors campus of the university system." They were desperately trying to get OSU's selective admissions rolled back and Ohio's killed in the womb. It was all a myth. There wasn't a single piece of legislation or executive action by a Governor or Regents Chair that ever did that.


Thanks for the information on the number of Miami students graduating with business degrees. I didn't realize that the percentage was that high. I guess I fell for the "public ivy" notion, without looking at the actual data. I guess I should have known better, though, because my eldest daughter went there two years before she "saw the light" and transferred to OHIO.

I'd like to turn the clock back even further than your hypothetical to right after the Morrill Act was passed and have Miami and Ohio cooperate and split the A and M, which was legal, and have two Morrill Act Land Grant schools in the Buckeye State before the concept of starting a brand new school in Columbus was even a glimmer in the collective eyes of the General Assembly. According to Thomas Hoover, who wrote the seminal history of Ohio University, there was a small window of opportunity for a few years post rebellion when this could have happened. But, Hoover implies that the unwillingness of Ohio and Miami to devise a joint plan in the first few legislative sessions postwar gave time for other possibilities to develop and the idea of a new university to emerge as a salient concept.

Last Edited: 5/22/2023 10:56:20 PM by OhioCatFan


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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/23/2023 10:53:48 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
I've never understood the whole liberal arts college schtick. Something like 60% of their students major in business or education. Yes, they have some basic arts and science requirements, but so does every respectable university in the country. I'll grant them "undergraduate focused," but in no way are they a liberal arts college.

Ohio does have a much broader based selection of graduate and professional degrees. I'd like to see a lot more of them reach into the top 100 though.

If I could magically put the toothpaste back into the tube, this is how I would have restructured the system in the 1960s. Just make the damned deal with the devil and anoint OSU as the flagship. It's what they were before Rhodes and what they quickly reasserted themselves as after Rhodes. Ohio becomes the system's other comprehensive research university and is given medical and law schools at that time. Ohio, OSU and Miami are granted selective admissions and let the chips fall where they may. Toledo and Akron are merged into Bowling Green and Kent. They are limited grad/research universities with open admissions undergraduate. When Cincinnati comes into the system in the late 70s, they would be a second comprehensive research university alongside Ohio. Wright and later Shawnee are probably never founded. Also, no branch campuses. The state has a statewide community college system.

EDIT: And regarding "public ivy" that was the result of some long forgotten book that came out in the early 80's. It had no methodology and was the completely subjective opinion of one guy who included Miami and Vermont over far more likely choices like Wisconsin, Illinois or Washington as a means to gin up a little controversy and talk. As I've mentioned, I had to spend a miserable weekend researching Miami's claim that they had been anointed as "the honors campus of the university system." They were desperately trying to get OSU's selective admissions rolled back and Ohio's killed in the womb. It was all a myth. There wasn't a single piece of legislation or executive action by a Governor or Regents Chair that ever did that.


Thanks for the information on the number of Miami students graduating with business degrees. I didn't realize that the percentage was that high. I guess I fell for the "public ivy" notion, without looking at the actual data. I guess I should have known better, though, because my eldest daughter went there two years before she "saw the light" and transferred to OHIO.

I'd like to turn the clock back even further than your hypothetical to right after the Morrill Act was passed and have Miami and Ohio cooperate and split the A and M, which was legal, and have two Morrill Act Land Grant schools in the Buckeye State before the concept of starting a brand new school in Columbus was even a glimmer in the collective eyes of the General Assembly. According to Thomas Hoover, who wrote the seminal history of Ohio University, there was a small window of opportunity for a few years post rebellion when this could have happened. But, Hoover implies that the unwillingness of Ohio and Miami to devise a joint plan in the first few legislative sessions postwar gave time for other possibilities to develop and the idea of a new university to emerge as a salient concept.


It would have been a pretty narrow window. Hayes comes in as Governor in January 1866, and he becomes the primary catalyst for founding the new university, putting it in Columbus away from the agricultural interests in Springfield and having it adopt a full classical curriculum. Aa part of his wheeling and dealing he ended up creating the University of Cincinnati as we know it. To get the support of the Cincy pols, he agreed to a bill allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K in population (only Cincy at the time). The Cincinnati founders then cobbled together several smaller colleges and endowed it as the municipal University of Cincinnati. The 1809 founding date they claim is merely the oldest of those colleges. For all intents and purposes, they were founded around 1871 or 1872.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/23/2023 12:17:13 PM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
I've never understood the whole liberal arts college schtick. Something like 60% of their students major in business or education. Yes, they have some basic arts and science requirements, but so does every respectable university in the country. I'll grant them "undergraduate focused," but in no way are they a liberal arts college.

Ohio does have a much broader based selection of graduate and professional degrees. I'd like to see a lot more of them reach into the top 100 though.

If I could magically put the toothpaste back into the tube, this is how I would have restructured the system in the 1960s. Just make the damned deal with the devil and anoint OSU as the flagship. It's what they were before Rhodes and what they quickly reasserted themselves as after Rhodes. Ohio becomes the system's other comprehensive research university and is given medical and law schools at that time. Ohio, OSU and Miami are granted selective admissions and let the chips fall where they may. Toledo and Akron are merged into Bowling Green and Kent. They are limited grad/research universities with open admissions undergraduate. When Cincinnati comes into the system in the late 70s, they would be a second comprehensive research university alongside Ohio. Wright and later Shawnee are probably never founded. Also, no branch campuses. The state has a statewide community college system.

EDIT: And regarding "public ivy" that was the result of some long forgotten book that came out in the early 80's. It had no methodology and was the completely subjective opinion of one guy who included Miami and Vermont over far more likely choices like Wisconsin, Illinois or Washington as a means to gin up a little controversy and talk. As I've mentioned, I had to spend a miserable weekend researching Miami's claim that they had been anointed as "the honors campus of the university system." They were desperately trying to get OSU's selective admissions rolled back and Ohio's killed in the womb. It was all a myth. There wasn't a single piece of legislation or executive action by a Governor or Regents Chair that ever did that.


Thanks for the information on the number of Miami students graduating with business degrees. I didn't realize that the percentage was that high. I guess I fell for the "public ivy" notion, without looking at the actual data. I guess I should have known better, though, because my eldest daughter went there two years before she "saw the light" and transferred to OHIO.

I'd like to turn the clock back even further than your hypothetical to right after the Morrill Act was passed and have Miami and Ohio cooperate and split the A and M, which was legal, and have two Morrill Act Land Grant schools in the Buckeye State before the concept of starting a brand new school in Columbus was even a glimmer in the collective eyes of the General Assembly. According to Thomas Hoover, who wrote the seminal history of Ohio University, there was a small window of opportunity for a few years post rebellion when this could have happened. But, Hoover implies that the unwillingness of Ohio and Miami to devise a joint plan in the first few legislative sessions postwar gave time for other possibilities to develop and the idea of a new university to emerge as a salient concept.


It would have been a pretty narrow window. Hayes comes in as Governor in January 1866, and he becomes the primary catalyst for founding the new university, putting it in Columbus away from the agricultural interests in Springfield and having it adopt a full classical curriculum. Aa part of his wheeling and dealing he ended up creating the University of Cincinnati as we know it. To get the support of the Cincy pols, he agreed to a bill allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K in population (only Cincy at the time). The Cincinnati founders then cobbled together several smaller colleges and endowed it as the municipal University of Cincinnati. The 1809 founding date they claim is merely the oldest of those colleges. For all intents and purposes, they were founded around 1871 or 1872.


As I re-read Hoover he provides some interesting detail.

First, in 1865 a commission set up by the legislature made a report recommending that the the Morrill land grant be split with one half going to Miami as an A&M and other half to a new college to be created in northern Ohio. A minority report recommended replacing Miami with a school in College Hill near Cincinnati. Neither report was adopted by the legislature.

Second, from 1865-70, Hoover says that "the question of founding an Ohio agricultural and mechanical college dragged on." He lists three proposals that got consideration during that time period: 1. Establishment of a new independent college with some emphasis on scientific and classical education, 2. The division of the grant between Ohio and Miami universities, each of which would establish an agricultural and mechanical department, and 3. the division of funds among a number of institutions, all of which would establish agricultural and mechanical departments.

He then says that the commissioner of education suggested a fourth plan, which would have "divided the funds between a centrally located professional institution and three well-endowed colleges in different parts of the state, which would be required to offer training in agriculture and science. Presumably, Ohio University would have been included in this plan."

Professor Hoover says that in this five year period that the Ohio and Miami trustees continued to lobby the legislature, often in conjunction with one another.

It's obviously a complex period in history, and with a few breaks could have gone more in Ohio University's favor. For instance, if John Brough, Ohio alumnus and Marietta native, had not died in office in 1865, he might have exerted significant influence in our favor. As a beloved war-time governor, he had tremendous political power.

FYI: Rutherford B. Hayes did not become Ohio governor until 1868. When Brough died he was succeeded by Lt. Governor Charles Anderson (1865-66), then Jacob Cox (1866-68), then Hayes (1868-72), Edward Noyes (1872-74), William Allen (1874-76), and then Hayes again (1876-71).

Edit: Very interesting detail about the University of Cincinnati. I'm curious, do you know the oldest of those colleges that went into the merged school? The one founded in 1809?

Last Edited: 5/23/2023 12:32:12 PM by OhioCatFan


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are #182
   Posted: 5/23/2023 8:26:42 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
I've never understood the whole liberal arts college schtick. Something like 60% of their students major in business or education. Yes, they have some basic arts and science requirements, but so does every respectable university in the country. I'll grant them "undergraduate focused," but in no way are they a liberal arts college.

Ohio does have a much broader based selection of graduate and professional degrees. I'd like to see a lot more of them reach into the top 100 though.

If I could magically put the toothpaste back into the tube, this is how I would have restructured the system in the 1960s. Just make the damned deal with the devil and anoint OSU as the flagship. It's what they were before Rhodes and what they quickly reasserted themselves as after Rhodes. Ohio becomes the system's other comprehensive research university and is given medical and law schools at that time. Ohio, OSU and Miami are granted selective admissions and let the chips fall where they may. Toledo and Akron are merged into Bowling Green and Kent. They are limited grad/research universities with open admissions undergraduate. When Cincinnati comes into the system in the late 70s, they would be a second comprehensive research university alongside Ohio. Wright and later Shawnee are probably never founded. Also, no branch campuses. The state has a statewide community college system.

EDIT: And regarding "public ivy" that was the result of some long forgotten book that came out in the early 80's. It had no methodology and was the completely subjective opinion of one guy who included Miami and Vermont over far more likely choices like Wisconsin, Illinois or Washington as a means to gin up a little controversy and talk. As I've mentioned, I had to spend a miserable weekend researching Miami's claim that they had been anointed as "the honors campus of the university system." They were desperately trying to get OSU's selective admissions rolled back and Ohio's killed in the womb. It was all a myth. There wasn't a single piece of legislation or executive action by a Governor or Regents Chair that ever did that.


Thanks for the information on the number of Miami students graduating with business degrees. I didn't realize that the percentage was that high. I guess I fell for the "public ivy" notion, without looking at the actual data. I guess I should have known better, though, because my eldest daughter went there two years before she "saw the light" and transferred to OHIO.

I'd like to turn the clock back even further than your hypothetical to right after the Morrill Act was passed and have Miami and Ohio cooperate and split the A and M, which was legal, and have two Morrill Act Land Grant schools in the Buckeye State before the concept of starting a brand new school in Columbus was even a glimmer in the collective eyes of the General Assembly. According to Thomas Hoover, who wrote the seminal history of Ohio University, there was a small window of opportunity for a few years post rebellion when this could have happened. But, Hoover implies that the unwillingness of Ohio and Miami to devise a joint plan in the first few legislative sessions postwar gave time for other possibilities to develop and the idea of a new university to emerge as a salient concept.


It would have been a pretty narrow window. Hayes comes in as Governor in January 1866, and he becomes the primary catalyst for founding the new university, putting it in Columbus away from the agricultural interests in Springfield and having it adopt a full classical curriculum. Aa part of his wheeling and dealing he ended up creating the University of Cincinnati as we know it. To get the support of the Cincy pols, he agreed to a bill allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K in population (only Cincy at the time). The Cincinnati founders then cobbled together several smaller colleges and endowed it as the municipal University of Cincinnati. The 1809 founding date they claim is merely the oldest of those colleges. For all intents and purposes, they were founded around 1871 or 1872.


As I re-read Hoover he provides some interesting detail.

First, in 1865 a commission set up by the legislature made a report recommending that the the Morrill land grant be split with one half going to Miami as an A&M and other half to a new college to be created in northern Ohio. A minority report recommended replacing Miami with a school in College Hill near Cincinnati. Neither report was adopted by the legislature.

Second, from 1865-70, Hoover says that "the question of founding an Ohio agricultural and mechanical college dragged on." He lists three proposals that got consideration during that time period: 1. Establishment of a new independent college with some emphasis on scientific and classical education, 2. The division of the grant between Ohio and Miami universities, each of which would establish an agricultural and mechanical department, and 3. the division of funds among a number of institutions, all of which would establish agricultural and mechanical departments.

He then says that the commissioner of education suggested a fourth plan, which would have "divided the funds between a centrally located professional institution and three well-endowed colleges in different parts of the state, which would be required to offer training in agriculture and science. Presumably, Ohio University would have been included in this plan."

Professor Hoover says that in this five year period that the Ohio and Miami trustees continued to lobby the legislature, often in conjunction with one another.

It's obviously a complex period in history, and with a few breaks could have gone more in Ohio University's favor. For instance, if John Brough, Ohio alumnus and Marietta native, had not died in office in 1865, he might have exerted significant influence in our favor. As a beloved war-time governor, he had tremendous political power.

FYI: Rutherford B. Hayes did not become Ohio governor until 1868. When Brough died he was succeeded by Lt. Governor Charles Anderson (1865-66), then Jacob Cox (1866-68), then Hayes (1868-72), Edward Noyes (1872-74), William Allen (1874-76), and then Hayes again (1876-71).

Edit: Very interesting detail about the University of Cincinnati. I'm curious, do you know the oldest of those colleges that went into the merged school? The one founded in 1809?


I got the date wrong on Hayes then. 1868 would give a much more realistic window to have come to some kind of a compromise. As you've mentioned too, the Copperhead presence at Miami along with their proud tradition of having served as a finishing school for rich Southerners (more things change...the more they stay the same) made them an anathema to a large number of state legislators.

The book is boxed up, but I'll try and dig it out over the weekend. I remember that it was more than two colleges that they cobbled together and then endowed with some fund that they were trying to find a use for. So, Hayes is to blame for not only Ohio State's creation but also UC's and, later through the law he enacted combined with population growth, the eventual creation of Toledo and Akron.
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