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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:02:02 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You're overly sensitive, perceive insults where there are none, and then use those perceived slights to justify your snark and unwillingness to converse.



You perceive in me an unwillingness to converse because you wish to discount "being offended" as a legitimate response to the kneeling. For you, it is unacceptable to be offended, because it is the players' "rights" to protest. Therefore, the conversation you wish to have is only about the merits of what the players are protesting, and not the methods.

My beef is with the methods.

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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:07:58 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

(Referring to Robert Fox) This is really silly and shallow thinking.


You then called OCF's memory into question. At that, I called you pretentious.

DelBobcat wrote:

I have had lots of disagreements with folks here. Many of them I respect and I value the perspective they bring to the table. All I get from you is name calling.


This tone might have done it.


I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you so this will be my last post on this topic, but OCF doesn't need you to defend him. He's an adult. And he and I cleared up that misunderstanding respectfully. And the second quote was in response to your name calling. You called me a name and my response was that name calling is not valuable and it's my fault that the conversation broke down? I honestly cannot understand your line of thinking.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:10:51 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
but OCF doesn't need you to defend him. He's an adult.


You might mention that to BLSOS. He's doing a nice job of defending you.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:16:47 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You're overly sensitive, perceive insults where there are none, and then use those perceived slights to justify your snark and unwillingness to converse.



You perceive in me an unwillingness to converse because you wish to discount "being offended" as a legitimate response to the kneeling. For you, it is unacceptable to be offended, because it is the players' "rights" to protest. Therefore, the conversation you wish to have is only about the merits of what the players are protesting, and not the methods.

My beef is with the methods.



I understand your beef. But the methods that you have beef with are constitutionally protected, and peaceful protest and freedom of speech are, in my view, core principles of our country. You've spoken of shared ideals and finding common ground, and I think that's common ground we should, as Americans, share. The flag, to me, stands for freedom of speech, and represents sacrifices made by Civil Rights leaders just as much as it represents those that put their lives on the line in our military. This protest, to me, is a reminder of everything our country can and should be; they are a renewed call to achieve our country and a call to remember everything our flag represents.

Being offended by that is totally acceptable. But simultaneously you have to accept that the players have this right, and you are not guaranteed the right not be offended by speech or protest. I think we owe it to our country and republic to put aside our own individual feelings in support of one of the core principles of our country. In this case, yes, that means discussing the merits of what the players are protesting and accepting the method of protest as part of the fabric of what makes America unique, regardless of your personal feelings.

(And just to pre-empt the obvious: yes, I know that the NFL could set a policy that removes this right as a private employer. However they haven't done so -- and even were they to, that doesn't change the legal right to protest and free speech, it just makes it such that they can lose their job as consequence.)
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:19:09 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
but OCF doesn't need you to defend him. He's an adult.


You might mention that to BLSOS. He's doing a nice job of defending you.



I'm not defending him. I was asking you to take a look at yourself. Those are two different things.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:28:40 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
but OCF doesn't need you to defend him. He's an adult.


You might mention that to BLSOS. He's doing a nice job of defending you.



I'm not defending him. I was asking you to take a look at yourself. Those are two different things.


Just as I wasn't defending OCF. I was criticizing DelBobcat's presumptions.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 3:40:21 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Being offended by that is totally acceptable. But simultaneously you have to accept that the players have this right, and you are not guaranteed the right not be offended by speech or protest. I think we owe it to our country and republic to put aside our own individual feelings in support of one of the core principles of our country. In this case, yes, that means discussing the merits of what the players are protesting and accepting the method of protest as part of the fabric of what makes America unique, regardless of your personal feelings.



I wish we could get past this idea. Yes, the protesters have the right to protest (as long as the NFL permits it). But exactly no one is claiming to have the right "not to be offended." Equally, the public doesn't have to accept the protest and may discount it due to whatever reason they want.

If you protest something, the general public may sympathize with you or they may reject you out of hand. Either is possible. Both are legally acceptable.

Back to my original point, if the protest first offends, there's a good chance the public won't sympathize, or at least won't hear you long enough to sympathize.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 4:29:53 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Being offended by that is totally acceptable. But simultaneously you have to accept that the players have this right, and you are not guaranteed the right not be offended by speech or protest. I think we owe it to our country and republic to put aside our own individual feelings in support of one of the core principles of our country. In this case, yes, that means discussing the merits of what the players are protesting and accepting the method of protest as part of the fabric of what makes America unique, regardless of your personal feelings.



I wish we could get past this idea. Yes, the protesters have the right to protest (as long as the NFL permits it). But exactly no one is claiming to have the right "not to be offended." Equally, the public doesn't have to accept the protest and may discount it due to whatever reason they want.

If you protest something, the general public may sympathize with you or they may reject you out of hand. Either is possible. Both are legally acceptable.

Back to my original point, if the protest first offends, there's a good chance the public won't sympathize, or at least won't hear you long enough to sympathize.


I think it's worth pointing out that now we're back to your refusing to have the conversation, which you've been pretty insistent you weren't doing. I'm not doing that to say "gotcha" or try and make you look stupid or anything. I just think we keep ending up at the same point, which is basically you saying "I don't have to discuss police brutality and inequality because I was offended by the protests methods." Which is unquestionably true. You don't.

But it's not at all constructive, and also, in my mind, puts your own individual feelings of offense ahead of some of those shared American values we were both calling for earlier.

We're not gonna change each other's minds at this point, and I know we're annoying other people, so I don't want to drag this out any longer. But I do want to make one last point then I'll let all of this be.

You acknowledge that police brutality is a real issue, and that inequality is a huge problem in our country. I know you empathize with those less fortunate, and understand those issues.

So try and put yourself in the shoes of a young black kid in America right now. How would you feel about the fact that the majority of Americans -- and yes, you're in the majority on this issue -- are far angrier about black men kneeling during the national anthem than they are about Tamir Rice being shot? Or Philandro Castile being shot. Or any of the hundreds of other instances that could be pointed to.

Do you think, in the scheme of things, the offense you've taken to the anthem protests measures anywhere close to the anger and fear seeing a video like the Philandro Castile video must instill in that kid? To feel like those that are sworn to protect and serve might be a danger to you? Not all of them, but some of them, and to never quite know which? And then watching that officer walk away, innocent of all charges? Now imagine you're that kid and you read about Blue Lives Matter laws being proposed.

This protest has dominated the news for a week. Colin Kaepernick's name has been a fixture in sports radio and political coverage for well over a year. Love the methodology or hate it, it has brought this issue to the forefront. The players have been heard.

So at this point it feels willful to me to put your own offense above a more important issue. I think it's important for our country's future that we're able to prioritize our country and ideals over our own individual emotional responses. I'm not saying you're legally required to do so. I'm simply saying I think it's the right thing for our country, and that it's consistent with the ideals represented by the flag you're defending.

So yes, you have the right to dismiss these protests for any reason you want. I just think your reason lacks perspective and empathy, and does little but perpetuate the 'outrage culture' that's become the thorn in the side of American public discourse.

Last Edited: 9/28/2017 4:50:57 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 4:58:18 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I think it's worth pointing out that now we're back to your refusing to have the conversation, which you've been pretty insistent you weren't doing. I'm not doing that to say "gotcha" or try and make you look stupid or anything. I just think we keep ending up at the same point, which is basically you saying "I don't have to discuss police brutality and inequality because I was offended by the protests methods." Which is unquestionably true. You don't.

But it's not at all constructive, and also, in my mind, puts your own individual feelings of offense ahead of some of those shared American values we were both calling for earlier.

We're not gonna change each other's minds at this point, and I know we're annoying other people, so I don't want to drag this out any longer. But I do want to make one last point then I'll let all of this be.

You acknowledge that police brutality is a real issue, and that inequality is a huge problem in our country. I know you empathize with those less fortunate, and understand those issues.

So try and put yourself in the shoes of a young black kid in America right now. How would you feel about the fact that the majority of Americans -- and yes, you're in the majority on this issue -- are far angrier about black men kneeling during the national anthem than they are about Tamir Rice being shot? Or Philandro Castile being shot. Or any of the hundreds of other instances that could be pointed to.

Do you think, in the scheme of things, the offense you've taken to the anthem protests measures anywhere close to the anger and fear seeing a video like the Philandro Castile video must instill in that kid? To feel like those that are sworn to protect and serve might be a danger to you? Not all of them, but some of them, and to never quite know which? And then watching that officer walk away, innocent of all charges? Now imagine you're that kid and you read about Blue Lives Matter laws being proposed.

This protest has dominated the news for a week. Colin Kaepernick's name has been a fixture in sports radio and political coverage for well over a year. Love the methodology or hate it, it has brought this issue to the forefront. The players have been heard.

So at this point it feels willful to me to put your own offense above a more important issue. I think it's important for our country's future that we're able to prioritize our country and ideals over our own individual emotional responses. I'm not saying you're legally required to do so. I'm simply saying I think it's the right thing for our country, and that it's consistent with the ideals represented by the flag you're defending.

So yes, you have the right to dismiss these protests for any reason you want. I just think your reason lacks perspective and empathy, and does little but perpetuate the 'outrage culture' that's become the thorn in the side of American public discourse.


OK, but keep in mind this thread started under the subject "How many will kneel at 1:00 today?" an appeal to folks to weigh-in on the kneeling and whether or not that was acceptable to them. The subsequent remarks were almost entirely about the methodology of this protest. As I recall, I was one of the very first to even mention police brutality or the actual purpose for the protest, and I don't think that happened until after the first few pages were posted.

Now you're switching gears to talk about the merit of the protests. As mentioned, my interest is in the methodology because I think it's counterproductive. You and I have firmly established we disagree on that. My position is that it's needlessly offensive. Your position, I think, is that the ends justify the means. So be it.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 7:13:45 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I think it's worth pointing out that now we're back to your refusing to have the conversation, which you've been pretty insistent you weren't doing. I'm not doing that to say "gotcha" or try and make you look stupid or anything. I just think we keep ending up at the same point, which is basically you saying "I don't have to discuss police brutality and inequality because I was offended by the protests methods." Which is unquestionably true. You don't.

But it's not at all constructive, and also, in my mind, puts your own individual feelings of offense ahead of some of those shared American values we were both calling for earlier.

We're not gonna change each other's minds at this point, and I know we're annoying other people, so I don't want to drag this out any longer. But I do want to make one last point then I'll let all of this be.

You acknowledge that police brutality is a real issue, and that inequality is a huge problem in our country. I know you empathize with those less fortunate, and understand those issues.

So try and put yourself in the shoes of a young black kid in America right now. How would you feel about the fact that the majority of Americans -- and yes, you're in the majority on this issue -- are far angrier about black men kneeling during the national anthem than they are about Tamir Rice being shot? Or Philandro Castile being shot. Or any of the hundreds of other instances that could be pointed to.

Do you think, in the scheme of things, the offense you've taken to the anthem protests measures anywhere close to the anger and fear seeing a video like the Philandro Castile video must instill in that kid? To feel like those that are sworn to protect and serve might be a danger to you? Not all of them, but some of them, and to never quite know which? And then watching that officer walk away, innocent of all charges? Now imagine you're that kid and you read about Blue Lives Matter laws being proposed.

This protest has dominated the news for a week. Colin Kaepernick's name has been a fixture in sports radio and political coverage for well over a year. Love the methodology or hate it, it has brought this issue to the forefront. The players have been heard.

So at this point it feels willful to me to put your own offense above a more important issue. I think it's important for our country's future that we're able to prioritize our country and ideals over our own individual emotional responses. I'm not saying you're legally required to do so. I'm simply saying I think it's the right thing for our country, and that it's consistent with the ideals represented by the flag you're defending.

So yes, you have the right to dismiss these protests for any reason you want. I just think your reason lacks perspective and empathy, and does little but perpetuate the 'outrage culture' that's become the thorn in the side of American public discourse.


OK, but keep in mind this thread started under the subject "How many will kneel at 1:00 today?" an appeal to folks to weigh-in on the kneeling and whether or not that was acceptable to them. The subsequent remarks were almost entirely about the methodology of this protest. As I recall, I was one of the very first to even mention police brutality or the actual purpose for the protest, and I don't think that happened until after the first few pages were posted.

Now you're switching gears to talk about the merit of the protests. As mentioned, my interest is in the methodology because I think it's counterproductive. You and I have firmly established we disagree on that. My position is that it's needlessly offensive. Your position, I think, is that the ends justify the means. So be it.


Bingo! Needlessly offensive. That's why this protest is so important. The thought of sitting at a lunch counter next to a Negro (or worse) was offensive to many. The thought of a Negro drinking out of the same water fountain was offensive to many. And heaven forbid, the thought of a Negro man having sex with a white woman even though she was his wife was offensive to many. Sometimes we have to experience true discomfort before we can open our eyes to the wrongs of the world and find a clear path to work for what is right.

Last Edited: 9/29/2017 8:00:28 AM by Alan Swank
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 8:42:36 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
The thought of sitting at a lunch counter next to a Negro (or worse) was offensive to many.


Quote:
The thought of a Negro drinking out of the same water fountain was offensive to many.


Quote:
And heaven forbid, the thought of a Negro man having sex with a white woman even though she was his wife was offensive to many.


Very comparable to people who find it offensive to be disrespectful to the military IMO

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 8:47:14 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:


Bingo! Needlessly offensive. That's why this protest is so important. The thought of sitting at a lunch counter next to a Negro (or worse) was offensive to many. The thought of a Negro drinking out of the same water fountain was offensive to many. And heaven forbid, the thought of a Negro man having sex with a white woman even though she was his wife was offensive to many. Sometimes we have to experience true discomfort before we can open our eyes to the wrongs of the world and find a clear path to work for what is right.


Offended at the lunch counter: Racism
Offended at the water fountain: Racism
Offended at the chapel: Racism
Offended at someone kneeling during the anthem (no matter what color they are): Not Racism

One of the items above is different.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 9:48:54 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:


Offended at the lunch counter: Racism
Offended at the water fountain: Racism
Offended at the chapel: Racism
Offended at someone kneeling during the anthem (no matter what color they are): Not Racism

One of the items above is different.


At the time those first three things were done, they violated deeply held convictions and social norms. Being enraged by them was a majority response, as has been demonstrated by polling cited in this thread. It's only with historical perspective that society looks back in horror. Who's to say the same thing won't happen with the anthem protests? The other thing that the civil rights protests of the past have in common with this current one is that they forced an uncomfortable conversation. The sit-ins, marches and other peaceful protests of the civil rights era ultimately led to societal change, which made them all successful. I hope this current protest leads to a changes that mean no unarmed civilians are killed by those who are supposed to "serve and protect" them. That goal seems a lot more important than blind nationalism.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:04:35 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
The other thing that the civil rights protests of the past have in common with this current one is that they forced an uncomfortable conversation. The sit-ins, marches and other peaceful protests of the civil rights era ultimately led to societal change, which made them all successful.


Yeah, I get that. This protest is a bridge too far. They are serving, first, to piss people off. I contend it won't get beyond that because the methods are so removed from the problem. What does police brutality have to do with disrespecting the flag and the anthem?

Nothing. And that's the problem.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:10:05 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Bingo! Needlessly offensive. That's why this protest is so important. The thought of sitting at a lunch counter next to a Negro (or worse) was offensive to many. The thought of a Negro drinking out of the same water fountain was offensive to many. And heaven forbid, the thought of a Negro man having sex with a white woman even though she was his wife was offensive to many. Sometimes we have to experience true discomfort before we can open our eyes to the wrongs of the world and find a clear path to work for what is right.


Offended at the lunch counter: Racism
Offended at the water fountain: Racism
Offended at the chapel: Racism
Offended at someone kneeling during the anthem (no matter what color they are): Not Racism

One of the items above is different.


On your last point we'll never know just as we'll never know what happened behind the voting curtain in 2008 and 2012. At the end of the day, some believe this has to do with the military while some see no connection at all. I fall in the latter camp because in my travels the last 11 years in every state east of the Mississippi and some west, racism even in our youth is much more prevalent than many want to admit.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:10:40 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The thought of sitting at a lunch counter next to a Negro (or worse) was offensive to many.


Quote:
The thought of a Negro drinking out of the same water fountain was offensive to many.


Quote:
And heaven forbid, the thought of a Negro man having sex with a white woman even though she was his wife was offensive to many.


Very comparable to people who find it offensive to be disrespectful to the military IMO


Could you explain this further?
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:17:34 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:


Yeah, I get that. This protest is a bridge too far. They are serving, first, to piss people off. I contend it won't get beyond that because the methods are so removed from the problem. What does police brutality have to do with disrespecting the flag and the anthem?

Nothing. And that's the problem.


You really see a disconnect? It's like flying a flag upside down - it's a way of saying there's a crisis in the nation. A man should not die for selling loose cigarettes. He should not die for sitting in a car during a traffic stop. He should not die for running during a broken tail light traffic stop. The fact that many people are more worried about taking a knee than genuine and deadly injustice is precisely why the protests are needed.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:24:20 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:


Yeah, I get that. This protest is a bridge too far. They are serving, first, to piss people off. I contend it won't get beyond that because the methods are so removed from the problem. What does police brutality have to do with disrespecting the flag and the anthem?

Nothing. And that's the problem.


You really see a disconnect? It's like flying a flag upside down - it's a way of saying there's a crisis in the nation. A man should not die for selling loose cigarettes. He should not die for sitting in a car during a traffic stop. He should not die for running during a broken tail light traffic stop. The fact that many people are more worried about taking a knee than genuine and deadly injustice is precisely why the protests are needed.


Then protest in a way that focuses the nation on those problems and does not distract the population with a needless slap that most people take as an insult--an insult that is not related to the issues you describe. All this has done is change the discussion to one about respect for the flag and the anthem. I would wager, in most communities, that's the debate. They're not debating the efficacy of police training.
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:26:07 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:


Yeah, I get that. This protest is a bridge too far. They are serving, first, to piss people off. I contend it won't get beyond that because the methods are so removed from the problem. What does police brutality have to do with disrespecting the flag and the anthem?

Nothing. And that's the problem.


You really see a disconnect? It's like flying a flag upside down - it's a way of saying there's a crisis in the nation. A man should not die for selling loose cigarettes. He should not die for sitting in a car during a traffic stop. He should not die for running during a broken tail light traffic stop. The fact that many people are more worried about taking a knee than genuine and deadly injustice is precisely why the protests are needed.


I waiver back and forth between thinking the protests are not working because you never change minds by protesting the flag/anthem, and thinking, well, nothing else had worked so the protesters needed to go nuclear.

And then I wake up to this https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/air-force-academy-r... and wish someone like Lt. Gen Jay Silveria was in charge of the White House response to the Nazi-White-Supremacist march Charlottsville and other places instead of Trump's insanity....

Sigh.

Last Edited: 9/29/2017 10:26:52 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:28:38 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:


Yeah, I get that. This protest is a bridge too far. They are serving, first, to piss people off. I contend it won't get beyond that because the methods are so removed from the problem. What does police brutality have to do with disrespecting the flag and the anthem?

Nothing. And that's the problem.


You really see a disconnect? It's like flying a flag upside down - it's a way of saying there's a crisis in the nation. A man should not die for selling loose cigarettes. He should not die for sitting in a car during a traffic stop. He should not die for running during a broken tail light traffic stop. The fact that many people are more worried about taking a knee than genuine and deadly injustice is precisely why the protests are needed.


Then protest in a way that focuses the nation on those problems and does not distract the population with a needless slap that most people take as an insult--an insult that is not related to the issues you describe. All this has done is change the discussion to one about respect for the flag and the anthem. I would wager, in most communities, that's the debate. They're not debating the efficacy of police training.


Do you not think the flag and anthem represent equality and justice? I'm not sure why you think that the ideals these players are pushing have nothing to do with the anthem/flag. Doesn't the flag represent our shared American ideals?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:33:40 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Do you not think the flag and anthem represent equality and justice?

Yes, I do. That's why we should all stand up and recognize that.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:38:04 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:

Then protest in a way that focuses the nation on those problems and does not distract the population with a needless slap that most people take as an insult--an insult that is not related to the issues you describe. All this has done is change the discussion to one about respect for the flag and the anthem. I would wager, in most communities, that's the debate. They're not debating the efficacy of police training.


You won't agree with this column, but reading it will give you some historical and present-day perspective as to why people feel a strong sense of injustice. And, in fact, why the anthem is a perfect platform for protest.

"If America demands your respect it must grant you respect and the first order of that respect is equality and eradicating the ominous threat of state violence."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/opinion/the-flag-is-dr...
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:40:16 AM 
Ohio69 wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:


Yeah, I get that. This protest is a bridge too far. They are serving, first, to piss people off. I contend it won't get beyond that because the methods are so removed from the problem. What does police brutality have to do with disrespecting the flag and the anthem?

Nothing. And that's the problem.


You really see a disconnect? It's like flying a flag upside down - it's a way of saying there's a crisis in the nation. A man should not die for selling loose cigarettes. He should not die for sitting in a car during a traffic stop. He should not die for running during a broken tail light traffic stop. The fact that many people are more worried about taking a knee than genuine and deadly injustice is precisely why the protests are needed.


I waiver back and forth between thinking the protests are not working because you never change minds by protesting the flag/anthem, and thinking, well, nothing else had worked so the protesters needed to go nuclear.

And then I wake up to this https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/air-force-academy-r... and wish someone like Lt. Gen Jay Silveria was in charge of the White House response to the Nazi-White-Supremacist march Charlottsville and other places instead of Trump's insanity....

Sigh.



Lt. General Silveria's response was really impressive.

It is striking, in retrospect, to compare the response from Trump and his cohort to Charlottesville to their response to the NFL protests.

The "there were good people on both sides" part is what's best remembered, but if you recall, in his original press conference he also took the time to point out that the leftist protesters were "there without a permit."

At it's core, that's Trump supporting the right to, and methodology, of the "Unite the Right" protest. In the case of the NFL protesters, he's done the opposite. And at no point has he said the NFL players are "fine people" as he did of many on the right at Charlottesville. Instead he's insisted that they're "sons of bitches," and called on them to lose their jobs.

I've done some googling, but I'm curious to know if the conservative media was so critical of
the methodology of the protests in Charlottesville. On the NFL protests, we have people insisting the methodology is a "bridge too far" and served only to piss people off. Was that reaction similar in the conservative media when white nationalists did Nazi solutes, and marched, 50 miles from the Confederate Capital, with torches while shouting Nazi slogans? Surely that's methodology far more worthy of derision than kneeling quietly in front of a flag?

Last Edited: 9/29/2017 10:49:07 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:43:23 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Do you not think the flag and anthem represent equality and justice?

Yes, I do. That's why we should all stand up and recognize that.



Even when one has legitimate cause to believe those ideals aren't being achieved and that those elected to represent them aren't doing so?

Put another way: doesn't insisting on blind nationalism and certain behavior towards the flag serve only to undermine it's significance? Shouldn't the 'flag' have to earn our respect by achieving the ideals it represents?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/29/2017 10:53:14 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Shouldn't the 'flag' have to earn our respect by achieving the ideals it represents?



You and Recovering Journalist are saying basically the same thing, so I'll address both here. No, the flag doesn't have to "earn" your respect. The executors do. If the law is fair but the enforcer of the law isn't, do you protest the law or the enforcer?
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