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Topic: RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic: RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 11:25:36 AM

Trump's moral failing aside (of which there are many), the 401k argument doesn't make sense. First of all, as pointed out already, most households do not have a 401k or any investments at all. If Trump cares about the working class shouldn't he be pushing policies that help get more people into the market?

Second of all, here are the numbers for the S&P 500 since 2008:

2017 21.83%
2016 11.96%
2015 1.38%
2014 13.69%
2013 32.39%
2012 16.00%
2011 2.11%
2010 15.06%
2009 26.46%
2008 -37.00%

So the year before Obama took office there was a 37% drop and that turned around to a 26.5% return in 2009. The S&P 500 was positive every year of the Obama Presidency. Nine consecutive years of annual growth ties a record for longest "up" streak. Notice also that Obama's first year had a higher growth rate than Trump's, even though Trump inherited a healthy economy.

But all of this is very silly anyway because there are so many variables that go into the direction of the market, including lots of randomness. 2013 was a better year for your 401k than this year in all likelihood but I'm sure you weren't crowing about how Obama was responsible.

Last Edited: 1/29/2018 11:27:14 AM by DelBobcat

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

akroncat
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Member Since: 7/23/2010
Location: Akron, OH
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 1:11:33 PM

You sound like the news media now. The economy is humming with positive vibes. Yet it is doing this only because of Obama.

For the record, since I was an engineer, I keep good records. I am retired so I only invest in approximately 50% stocks. My 401k went up 7% in 2013 with it increased 9.4% last year.

Remember elections are won based on the economy, not sympathy for illegal aliens.

cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 1:21:59 PM

Agree - market is continuing to go great. Of course Republicans spent 8 years telling us the President has little direct impact on the economy. But if it keeps strong, Trump will get credit - as Obama should have.

What I struggle with is in the evaluation of the man. 4 to of 5 Republicans saying Trump is a role model for their children (can't see anyone putting their grandchild on their knee and pointing to trump on TV and saying, "he is who you should act like". -- but 4 out of 5 Republicans say they point to him as a role model) and provides an appropriate moral compass for our country - not his policies - not his thoughts on abortion.... him.

Last Edited: 1/29/2018 1:23:33 PM by cc-cat

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 1:36:16 PM

akroncat wrote:

That's not at all what people are saying. They're showing consistent economic growth over a period of 9 years to illustrate that the current economy didn't begin it's upswing on January 20th 2017.

The argument isn't that Trump desrerves no credit for the economy, but rather that your previous statement where you said you would have voted for anybody but Obama rings completely hollow now that you're insisting that "elections are won on the economy."

That also doesn't seem consistent with your earlier explanation that you made the shift from Democrat to Republican because of "morals." Your support for Trump seems driven by a single issue. Your opposition to Obama seems driven by several, different issues. Some of which (namely "morals") you're willing to overlook for Trump. Am I reading that wrong?

Last Edited: 1/29/2018 1:43:18 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 2:10:02 PM

akroncat wrote:

Yea, as pointed out, that's not at all what I said. I'm saying you can't claim that the economy suddenly changed under Trump. I did so by pointing out that it was strong under Obama as well. Notice I said there are many variable that affect the economy and the stock market and randomness is one of them. But somehow you read that as giving all the credit to Obama?

The problem I have is that when I talk to Trump supporters and bring up facts, they don't argue with what I actually said but rather a straw man version of what I said. When the economy was growing under Obama I never said that it was only because of him and I won't say that now. But if you watch Fox News they'll tell you that things that happened in 2016 BEFORE Trump was elected were because of him. Trump himself derided unemployment numbers as FAKE NEWS during the campaign and now is taking credit for the low unemployment rate. So is the unemployment rate fake or not?

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Kevin Finnegan
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Location: Rockton, IL
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 5:03:50 PM

If you believe that the POTUS has a direct correlation on the economy, here's some interesting information. The National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) determines that a recession is caused by "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than two quarters (six months), normally measureable in GDP."

Thus, this is factual, not selective. Recessions are a point of fact, the economy regresses. Since World War II, here are the recessions in the United States:
--11/48 through 10/49 (11 months of Truman admin)
--7/53 through 5/54 (10 months of Eisenhower admin)
--9/57 through 4/58 (8 months of Eisenhower admin)
--4/60 through 2/61 (9 months of Eisenhower admin, 1 month of Kennedy admin)
--12/69 through 11/70 (11 months of Nixon admin)
--11/73 through 3/75 (10 months of Nixon admin, 6 months of Ford admin)
--1/80 through 7/80 (6 months of Carter admin)
--7/81 through 11/82 (16 months of Reagan admin)
--7/90 through 3/91 (8 months of Bush Sr admin)
--3/01 through 11/01 (8 months of Bush Jr admin)
--12/07 through 6/09 (13 months of Bush Jr admin, 5 months of Obama admin)

So, here's a breakdown of Presidents since WW II and the months there was a recession during their presidency and the number of months of their total presidency:

--Truman: Recession for 11 of 93 months (11.8%)
--Eisenhower: 27 of 96 months (28.1%)
--Kennedy: 1 of 34 months (2.9%)
--Johnson: 0 of 62 months (0.0%)
--Nixon: 21 of 67 months (31.3%)
--Ford: 6 of 29 months (20.7%)
--Carter: 6 of 48 months (12.5%)
--Reagan: 16 of 96 months (16.7%)
--Bush Sr: 8 of 48 months (16.7%)
--Clinton: 0 of 96 months (0.0%)
--Bush Jr: 21 of 96 months (21.9%)
--Obama: 5 of 96 months (5.2%)
--Trump: 0 of 12 months (0.0%)

Thus, since WW II, there have been 428 months with a Democrat in the White House, 23 months of which been during a US recession. That equates to 5.4% of the time a Democratic POTUS has presided over a recession.

In the same time frame, there has been a Republican POTUS for 444 months. In that time, there have been 99 months of recession in the US, or 22.3% of the time.

This is a pretty good sample size. If you believe that the POTUS has a direct impact in the economy, this is pretty telling.

That one crazy fan
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Member Since: 7/21/2010
Location: Iowa City, IA
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 5:39:06 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

akroncat wrote:

One reason I haven't added to this thread is the deep hatred expressed in comments. Calling someone Bobby when he is willing to give is name as Robert is extremely insulting. I just can't believe how Obama did nothing wrong but Trump is many times compared to

Respectfully, there are literal Nazis, with swastika armbands, German chants, torches, and the works marching in support of Trump. He has, whether purposefully or because he's a blundering fool, done a very poor job of officially denouncing them. Which is to say, generally if you don't want to be compared to Nazis, you should consider policies that don't make Nazis so pleased.

In other words, 100 % of Trump supporters aren't racists and Nazis, but 100% of racists and Nazis support Trump. Why is that? And more to the point, why aren't rational, moral conservatives doing more to clean house within their party?

It strikes me as really strange to make the point that liberals overreact and call Trump Hitler, while literal Nazis March in favor of Trump.

So many conservatives here are clearly annoyed by being labelled racist by the left. That's fair. I certainly don't think any of you are racists. But there's cause and effect at work here.

Bingo!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-...

I keep saying, have nothing to do with those people. If you don't want to be labelled as a Nazi, then don't throw your lot in with them. If they praise Donald Trump for his policies, then what does that tell you about his policies. When Trump doesn't rebuke the leader of the KKK for praising him, what does that tell you about about the man? When he isn't horrified by a group of white men throwing out the Nazi salue shouting "hail Trump," what does that tell you about the man? When he will say that the Nazis have a right to their say, but when a group on the left say something he talks about "knocking the crap out of them," what does that tell you about the man?

The opposing team sucks!

That one crazy fan
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Member Since: 7/21/2010
Location: Iowa City, IA
Post Count: 486

Status: Offline

RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 5:41:00 PM

akroncat wrote:

You keep saying about how he is leading like a Republican, yet my dad, who has been a Republican his entire life, is absolutely incensed by the party right now for its embrace of Donald Trump, a man who has absolutely no morals. My dad also runs his own business, btw. Trump is a man who has thrown his support behind several candidates who have come out and proven that they are racist in their speech and actions.

Let's talk about the word, "lead," while we are at it. At what point does a leader constantly publicly berate his own staff when he doesn't get his way? At what point does a leader constantly shout at the opposition instead of finding ways to work with them? At what point does a leader point fingers when a plan falls through, especially after they didn't seem to be working at it to begin with but getting ready to go on a vacation for the second weekend in a row? At what point does a leader constantly talk about demanding loyalty? I'm an Eagle Scout. At no point during my time in the Boy Scouts did I ever learn that those were the qualities of a leader, but instead the complete opposite. You should also look at how other countries are responding to us, by going to other countries such as Russia and China for help. Wow, just world class leadership. If you think Trump is leading, then you clearly never held any position of real power If you did, then I guarantee that you probably had everyone making jokes behind your back.

You keep talking about your 401k. Most people in my home area will laugh at you if you talk about 401k's, because most will never see one, the same goes with stock. The stock market, btw, was already climbing before Trump was even elected, yet it's all beause of him apparently. He's having the same exact numbers of job creation as Obama, yet Obama was the failure in job creation. Trump has now exceded the number of golf trips in one year that Obama took his entire presidency, yet it's Obama that's the vacationer in chief. Trump is all for law enforcement, unless it's investigating him, then apparently it's a coup. I could keep going on about the hypocrisy.

Btw, as for the "illegal alien" comment, you don't want to be called racist yet you keep using words that dehumanize human beings that were brought here as children through no fault of their own.

Last Edited: 1/29/2018 5:41:56 PM by That one crazy fan

The opposing team sucks!

DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 6:27:28 PM

Let us all look at his job creation numbers too, since it's all about "JOBS, JOBS, JOBS!" Here is a comparison of this year's total jobs created to each year of Obama's second term:

�2017: 171,000
�2016: 187,000
�2015: 226,000
�2014: 250,000
�2013: 192,000

The numbers speak for themselves. Again, not saying those strong job creation number were entirely because of Obama policies, but we need to be operating with the same set of facts here.

Also, I got these numbers from Fox News but did not double check them. I figure we can trust Fox News though, right?

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

akroncat
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Member Since: 7/23/2010
Location: Akron, OH
Post Count: 190

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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 6:57:04 PM

I am done here. cc-cat asked a reasonable question and I thought I would answer him. I hope you enjoy talking to yourselves. You certainly have your minds made up.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 7:39:46 PM

akroncat wrote:

I am done here. cc-cat asked a reasonable question and I thought I would answer him. I hope you enjoy talking to yourselves. You certainly have your minds made up.

God forbid you engage around the points being made.

I'm really baffled. Why does this continually happen with conservative posters here? They explain their views, those views are challenged, and they take their ball and go home.

Did your Ohio University degree not impair in your the value of constantly questioning your beliefs? You were asked reasonable questions and people made reasonable points. Nobody did so in a condescending way. Why does the conversation have to end because people disagreed with you and explained how their views differ?

For all of the accusations about snowflakes being hurled from right to left, on this board it's exclusively conservative posters who claim offense and shut down conversations that make them uncomfortable.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 7:52:31 PM

Sorry, but this needs to be said:

How in God's name is it that multiple posters were so offended by BillytheCat referring to Robert as Bobby that they had to chime in about how classless and insulting it was, yet nobody--not a single person--said a word when a Robert Fox defended Roy Moore's actions EVEN IF EVERY ACCUSATION WERE TRUE. He did that several pages ago. I even asked him to clarify. He did so, by debating what a pedophile is.

Is our perception of classless so warped that a 32 year-old sexually assaulting a 14 year-old's just "oddball behavior" but playfully calling out a message board poster with a diminutive form of his first name is somehow "classless" and "incredibly offensive?"

Can somebody rational explain this to me? Am I the only person who finds that insane? I guess we finally figured out what would have to happen for conservatives not to support Roy Moore. He just has to refer to a Robert as Bobby sometime.

Last Edited: 1/29/2018 7:55:52 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

That one crazy fan
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 8:09:04 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

It's the same people that will gnash their teeth at being called deplorable but when their own president calls other countries "****holes," they applaud it and tell us to "get over it." Hypocrites and the true snowflakes.

The opposing team sucks!

BillyTheCat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 9:18:46 PM

That one crazy fan wrote:

akroncat wrote:

BillyTheCat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 9:21:30 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Bingo! And non-Trump supporters are supposed to be the Snowflakes. Amazing!

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/29/2018 10:18:26 PM

akroncat wrote:

I am done here. cc-cat asked a reasonable question and I thought I would answer him. I hope you enjoy talking to yourselves. You certainly have your minds made up.

What? On the last page you said you enjoyed a good discussion and invited people to respond. Do you not actually want to discuss the points you brought up? I'm confused honestly.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Kevin Finnegan
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 1/30/2018 4:40:21 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I can see it now...the next tweet from the President refers to Little Bobby Mueller and his Fake News investigation.

Speaking of classless, imagine somebody calls you on the phone, even possibly your boss, and refers to your wife as a "loser." I'm not a violent man, never been in a knock-down, drag out fight, but I'd have a hard time not punching a guy who calls my wife a loser. Hard to respect that. For context, that's what POTUS supposedly said to McCabe on the phone the first time they talked.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/2/2018 8:43:18 AM

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/95938942480619...

"The top Leadership and Investigators of the FBI and the Justice Department have politicized the sacred investigative process in favor of Democrats and against Republicans - something which would have been unthinkable just a short time ago. Rank & File are great people!"

In case you're keeping score at home, all of the leadership and investigators at the FBI referred to here are Republicans, and all of the leadership at the Justice Department were appointed by Trump.

So the argument here is that Republicans are against Republicans in favor of Democrats.

If it wasn't so sad, it'd be hilarious how little Republicans think of their supporters.

BillyTheCat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/3/2018 12:51:18 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Fucking BINGO. But Robert went missing.

Last Edited: 2/3/2018 11:13:10 AM by BillyTheCat

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/8/2018 8:16:00 AM

People on the right were upset when it turned not President Clinton didn't fire her spiritual advisor who'd been accused of sexual harassment. I assume they're just as angry now that it turns out the Trump administration knew about Rob Porter's history of physically abusing women AND tried to cover it up?

Or is the lack of anger just due to the fact that Fox News decided not to cover the story?

Last Edited: 2/8/2018 8:17:11 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/12/2018 10:31:22 AM

A lot was made of the fact that many voted for Trump despite his moral flaws because they wanted to see a return to fiscal conservatism. They were tired of running big deficits and mortgaging the future. They wanted the GOP to be in control. Well now we have runaway deficits with no end in sight.

Facts:

In 2009 the deficit was almost 10% of GDP as a result of the Great Recession.

In 2015 that had fallen to under 2.8% of GDP.

This year it is projected to grow to 3.5% of GDP and by 2021 it'll be over 5% of GDP, thanks to the massive tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations and out of control spending. This has never before happened in an era with good economic growth and a low unemployment rate. It is a baffling strategy to any economist worth their salt, on the left or the right.

So... with all that being said: Which party exactly is the party of fiscal responsibility? And can you continue to excuse your support of a racist/sexist/homophobic/climate denier/sociopath President because of some vague notion of fiscal responsibility? The answers are the Democrats and NO.

Last Edited: 2/12/2018 5:06:25 PM by DelBobcat

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Kevin Finnegan
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Location: Rockton, IL
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/12/2018 3:48:59 PM

I would say that neither is a party of fiscal conservatism. I'd really wonder what the parties themselves truly stand for now rather than just say that they're for.

REPUBLICAN:

--Strong borders/anti-immigration
--Heavy military spending
--Low taxes
--Deregulation
--More of a corporate state
--Privatize, privatize, privatize
--Political incorrectness, to a fault
--State oversight on security

DEMOCRATS:

--Civil rights
--Government supporting the individual (healthcare, education, social security)
--Improving infrastructure
--Less reliant on a military state
--Individual rights
--Government regulation (increased minimum wage, safety regulations, etc.)
--Progressive tax structure
--Political correctness, to a fault

These are sort of the hallmarks that I see from each side. I don't believe that the budget is really anything more than a dog whistle at this point, used to stake flags in the sand on what one side wants over another.

DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/12/2018 5:07:59 PM

finnOhio wrote:

I'd say this is pretty accurate. Anybody care to disagree?

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/12/2018 5:35:46 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

finnOhio wrote:

I'd say this is pretty accurate. Anybody care to disagree?

My only issue with it is the political correctness bit. Both parties are politically correct to a fault. It just takes much different forms.

On the left, the clear example is college campuses where language can sometimes be over-policed.

On the right, political correctness has run amok in the "culture wars." Colin Kaepernick's a perfect example. His only crime is that he made the UN-PC decision to protest during the National Anthem. The President's Diaper has been full for two years as a result.

I mean hell, folks on the Right demanded a refund from Direct TV because of NFL players kneeling in protest. If that's not political correctness running amok, I don't know what it is.

And that's just one of a hundred examples. I could type breibart.com or dailycaller.com into my browser and easily find an example of the Right policing speech. Last week people called for Jimmy Kimmel to be fired because he joked about Conservatives being stupid. This week, they're going after Sarah Silverman for an off-color joke about abortion.

It's the same shit, different teams. Neither party has a foot left to stand on regarding political correctness. It's one of the more unfortunate symptoms of the current political climate.

OUPride
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 2/13/2018 10:48:04 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

finnOhio wrote:

I'd say this is pretty accurate. Anybody care to disagree?

Yep. In many of the most important ways, the two parties are no longer distinct ideological opponents but, rather, competing gangs fighting over turf and spoils. When both parties essentially become vassals of Wall St, big health and multi-national corporations, the only thing left with which they have to differentiate themselves from each other are the social issues. And that's why much of the political discourse is over illegal immigrants, machine guns for everyone, tranny crappers and so on.

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