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Topic: RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic: RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 7:49:07 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

There's also an online article about Direct T.V. offering refunds to customers upset over the protests.

Outrage culture at it's finest. As a country, we've become enamored with the idea that we have the right to not have our ideas questioned. It is, frankly, the furthest thing from Patriotic.

rpbobcat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 8:13:57 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Outrage culture at it's finest. As a country, we've become enamored with the idea that we have the right to not have our ideas questioned.

I presume you're referring to people on both sides of this and a number of other "hot button" issues.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 8:39:07 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Outrage culture at it's finest. As a country, we've become enamored with the idea that we have the right to not have our ideas questioned.

I presume you're referring to people on both sides of this and a number of other "hot button" issues.

Didn't the words "As a country" make that obvious?

My entire point is that based on the rhetoric of the last couple of years, both parties should be, and are, in complete agreement on this issue. But our tribalism has reached such a crisis point that nobody can even acknowledge it. The most important thing to everybody is making sure the other team's being criticized.

And the beautiful irony in this particular case is that it's being done in the name of Patriotism, with a capital P. We're so goddamned Patriotic that we don't even care about the first amendment anymore, and the biggest enemy we can conjure up is the opposition party.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 8:42:54 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

The Optimist
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 9:09:33 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Outrage culture at it's finest. As a country, we've become enamored with the idea that we have the right to not have our ideas questioned.

I presume you're referring to people on both sides of this and a number of other "hot button" issues.

The human race has engaged in tribalism for our entire existence. This is true across races and cultures. It's literally a biological characteristic of the human species.

What has changed more recently is a massive push for globalism. What has changed even more recently is backlash against this push for globalism.

Preferring tribalism to globalism doesn't make you a racist. The media has mixed these two issues and neither side seems to understand that the opposite side is talking about a different issue, or lack the logical reasoning ability to comprehend there are distinct issues involved.

I've seen crazier things happen.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 9:27:24 AM

The Optimist wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Outrage culture at it's finest. As a country, we've become enamored with the idea that we have the right to not have our ideas questioned.

I presume you're referring to people on both sides of this and a number of other "hot button" issues.

Huh? Who said anything about racism? Or globalism? In sum: what are you talking about? What is globalism, and where are you seeing this massive push?

That's the second time in this thread that you've insisted you're not racist completely out of the blue. It's super weird.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 9:31:43 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

cc-cat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 10:16:59 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Maybe they'll go back to their old policy, pre 2009 I believe,of having the teams stay in the locker room till after the National Anthem.

Or perhaps more likely, at some point this season a black man or teen will be shot by police under questionable circumstances. Our President will immediately tweet some sort of support for the police and follow it with a slight/insensitive tweet towards the victim of the questionable police action. And all hell will break loose on and off the field... from all sides.

You can't govern by putting issue after issue (N. Korea, social injustice, equal rights, etc.) on the head of a needle and not expect it to pop the balloon (and then feign surprise when it does) as you wave the needle cavalierly through the air via 140 character tweets and sound bites thrown out to the base.

As far as "tribal" - yes, human kind is tribal by nature. But what (I think) makes our country "exceptional" is that we declare (via our Constitution) that there is only one tribe - our citizens and that all other tribes (race, creed, etc) are subordinate. And that our one tribe are equals..."all men..." And that we expand that tribe (slavery/black, women, LGBT, etc.) as we continue to to strive to make this a more perfect union.

The further we get away from that most holy covenant the less exceptional we become - and I fear we, as a society, are sprinting away from our pledge: "one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." That pledge is currently a fleeting aspiration, not a reality.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 11:25:35 AM by cc-cat

rpbobcat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 11:31:42 AM

cc-cat wrote:

Gee,if I recall correctly,our former President did pretty much the same thing,by issuing statements critical of the police.
What was also upsetting was,when the facts showed the police did act appropriately,there was no apology from the White House.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 11:44:00 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

Can you provide some examples and quotes? Curious which incident you're referring to.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 11:45:22 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Really?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/jul/... /

rpbobcat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 11:51:09 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

And the beautiful irony in this particular case is that it's being done in the name of Patriotism, with a capital P. We're so goddamned Patriotic that we don't even care about the first amendment anymore, and the biggest enemy we can conjure up is the opposition party.

I'm not an expert in the Constitution.
Fortunately,I have a friend who is.

He's a Constitutional Lawyer,who is qualified to argue cases before the Supreme Court.

I asked him about the whole National Anthem/kneeling issue.

According to him:

The language in the First Amendment is clear.
"Congress shall make no law . . . ".

That has nothing to do with this.

This is strictly a private employer/employee matter.

He used the same example I believe someone else may have posted ,that a restaurant owner can prohibit a server from saying to customers that eating meat is murder.

The only way the First Amendment could possibly come into play is if the employer wanted to prohibit an employee from exercising their free speech rights,outside of work,in "street clothes".

cc-cat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 11:51:45 AM

Gee - Did I bring up Obama

Golly - I don't think we are allowed to use "apology" and "President" in the same sentence these days - I know the administration does not allow it.

And Golly Gee - There is no question some police shootings are warranted. Yet others are not - and yet the police officer (most often) gets off (don't waste your time finding the isolated convictions). That is the core of the current issue. Our society is a powder keg right now and Trump is waving around matches. And then he will go "gee I never...." Or more likely "gee, those people...that's not OUR..."

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 11:58:44 AM by cc-cat

rpbobcat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 11:57:55 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

Can you provide some examples and quotes? Curious which incident you're referring to.

I'll just give you two.
After a police shooting the first statement the president gave was "I don't know all the facts but ".

Same thing,the whole "lets get together for a beer " incident.Again,when it turned the police were in the right.

OhioCatFan
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 12:05:33 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I trust that you genuinely support the cause, and that you were a genuine supporter of the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s.

But I can't even imagine how you rationalize your support for the GOP given that support. I would be genuinely interested in trying to understand it, because in terms of both policy and rhetoric conservatism today feels very regressive in regards to Civil Rights. How do you, for instance, consider yourself a strong supporter of the Civil Rights movent and support a party that's systematically and blatantly pushing to make it more difficult for black citizens to vote? Those two things feel very at odds with one another, and it's hard for me to accept that you support the cause of this movement when you vote against the movement's interests.

Only time for a brief response, so I'll just list a two quick answers that can be expanded upon later:

1. I don't see voter ID laws as unreasonable; I don't see them as akin to poll taxes, KKK voter intimidation, etc.; requiring some minimal effort to register to vote and ID yourself when voting seems more than reasonable to me. As much as some try to paint this as a racial issue, I personally don't see it that way. There are probably as many whites who have minimal interest in politics who refuse to or don't care enough about voting to register and come to the polls with a proper ID. I believe it is very important to have integrity in our voting system, and voter ID laws seem to me to help in this regard.

2. I'm extremely pro-life. I would never knowingly vote for a candidate who supports abortion-on-demand. Except in rare circumstances I consider all abortions to be murder. There are a few situations (gross fetal deformity, certain genetic disorders that doom a person to a life of total misery, etc.) where I feel abortion might be justifiable homicide. And, as you probably know, proportionately many more black babies are aborted than white babies. And, the founder of Planned Parenthood had that as a actual goal. How can you support Planned Parenthood and then say you are for black rights? To reduce it to a bumper sticker: "I'm Pro Life and I Vote."

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

rpbobcat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 12:05:40 PM

cc-cat wrote:

If charges are brought against a police officer, and he's found not guilty,isn't that how the system is suppose to work.

Same thing with the 18 year old in NYC who got probation last week for gun charges.
Then yesterday went out and shot a cop at point blank range.
Fortunately he was a bad shot and she only got hit in the chin.

I have a number of friends in law enforcement.
I know some (many) of the people on this site will disagree,but their position,given the number of police officers being targeted is that in a "shoot/don't shoot situation ", " I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6".

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 12:07:34 PM by rpbobcat

cc-cat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 12:19:52 PM

I'd absolutely rather be judged by 12 when I know the odds are stacked heavily in my favor. And I am disturbed that the system is stacked against others (poor for example).

And I too know police officers and federal agents. I can walk out my front door and talk to 3 within 100 yards. And they still try to focus on being "peace officers" and not simply "law enforcement." And all wish and hope that when an officer makes a mistake (which happens) or is simply a bad cop they are held responsible.

But let me come back to my point - TODAY - we need leadership that will facilitate dialogue, understanding, and unity, rather than fuel divisiveness in our nation and distractions from our problems.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 12:20:44 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You're not grasping my point at all. I'll use examples this time:

When Google fires an engineer for writing a memo critical of their diversity hiring strategy, conservatives freak out about the left's propensity for politically correct shaming. Rightfully.

When a college professor's fired or reprimanded for some infraction it's the same deal. The reaction is that the left's waging a war on the first amendment. Rightfully.

When college students try and create safe spaces and criticize those who present ideas they find distasteful, the right criticizes them. Rightfully.

But when NFL players kneel during the national anthem and the fucking President -- a state actor -- calls for a private company to fire them, the NFL players don't find the same support from the right.

When Kathy Griffin posts a tasteless photo -- conservatives call for her firing and the left defends her.

When Jamelle Hill calls the President a white supremacist, conservatives (including the President) call for her firing and the left defends her.

For God's sake, people are asking DirectTV for refunds because players protested during a game they were watching. Is that not the most over-sensitive, politically correct garbage you've ever heard of?

My point is that EVERYBODY AGREES that political correctness is out of control. It's evident in the NFL protest, it's evident on college campuses, it's evident in companies like Google. Political correctness, and outrage culture have become weapons used by both the left and the right, and instead of recognizing it, when something like this NFL thing pops up, it becomes a cause that's immediately seized upon to try and make headway in an un-winnable, and damaging culture war.

Which is why I mention the First Amendment. We're all supposed to deeply believe in it, regardless of what's said. And instead of weaponizing it to get each other fired, why don't we stop being such fucking babies about it when somebody says something we disagree with?

I mean, the GOP, the party of small government, is now blindly supporting the President's right to call on a private company to fire a private individual. You see how crazy and backwards that is relative to the ideals conservatives historically believe in, right?

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 12:25:25 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

cc-cat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 12:33:32 PM

BLSS - If I may supplement your final statement.

I mean, the GOP, the party of small government, is now blindly supporting the President's right to call on a private company to fire a private individual because they do not agree with the individuals' position and action. You see how dangerous that is."

I apologize if I've over stepped your thought.

And yes, in the end, get over yourselves folks - cancelling Direct TV? Really, If you are that upset just buy a flag, stick it on the wall to your right turn and salute it while listening to the anthem and don't worry about what someone on the field, in the stands, or next door is doing.

But I'm sure there were people that stopped going to Clint Eastwood movies when he made a fool of himself in 2012. And I guess a good Christian should refuse to see Tom Cruise movies and lord knows some people are rushing out to buy tiki torches and others are throwing theirs out. And Tebow is not in the NFL because of his religious enthusiasm, not because of his poor NFL skills.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 12:56:50 PM by cc-cat

rpbobcat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 12:57:01 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Its not a matter of grasping your point.

All I'm saying is that the issue of kneeling during the National Anthem is not a First Amendment issue.

As far as Freedom of Speech,the President has the same right express his opinion on this as anyone else.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:00:09 PM

cc-cat wrote:

Nope, totally fair. And here, in support of that, somebody said "I'm glad, for once, that we don't have someone who is too PC to speak their mind."

Which is insane, and completely subverts what is and isn't politically correct. I mean think about that: that poster is praising the President for having the guts to tke the non-PC stance that a player who took a non-PC stance should be fired for not doing the PC thing.

What the shit?

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:03:51 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Good talk.

Look forward to making no progress with you next time something comes up, too. Apologize for trying to find some common ground.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 1:17:49 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

cc-cat
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:06:13 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

As far as Freedom of Speech,the President has the same right express his opinion on this as anyone else.

But has a greater responsibility than all of us. And therefore must govern and speak with an appreciation of that role and responsibility. It is a daunting responsibility as any president will attest. This one still struggles - as his own administration and COS will attest. Needle will meet balloon.

Yup Shame I'm with you. PC no longer means "political correctness" It now stands for "Personal Correctness" - What I think is right. If you disagree with me, you are not PC.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 1:12:01 PM by cc-cat

OhioCatFan
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:08:32 PM

cc-cat wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

As far as Freedom of Speech,the President has the same right express his opinion on this as anyone else.

Trump engages his mouth before his brain is in gear sometimes.

allen
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:11:41 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

In a fantasy world, the persident called out the police and the white supremacists in Charlottesville. I will say that he did and hope that it sticks so that I can support my narrative. Son's of b's should fired for saying we should be equal and some fine people were out assaulting and killing people in support of a conferate flag which fought against our flag and caused over 600k thousand people are the pillars of our society. The just don't protest like they used too, I was with Dr' King. I threw a can at him in Alabama, they knew what they were doing, the athletes on the other hand are son's of b's and you can call me racists for being a segregatist like Trump, that is fine by me. Trump is going to come and hunt with me and roast marshmallows with me and he will speak at our rally on his next vacation. He is not just a fifth avene New yorker taking advantage of racists, he really loves us

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 1:18:17 PM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

allen
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:17:42 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

It's funny how 70% of the officers killed in the line of duty are killed y whites, yet they take whites with guns and knives into custody without shooting them, but if a black guy shows his wallets he get 15 shots. Blacks are five times more likely to be shot by police while unarmed. The Bundy's held strong armed federal property twice and got aquitted. We really believe that you have a lot of friends that are in law enforcement and you really reached out to a constitutional lawyer for a message board opinion. That counted as your free consultation.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

allen
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RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Posted: 9/27/2017 1:40:58 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

The Constitution only apply to government employment. Privat companies can fire you if they think that you represented them in a negative light especially in at will states and where there is no union. However, no government official can punish or coerce others to punish people who using their first amendment right, so it is very unusual that a sitting president would try to push for protesters that broke no law to get fired, especially a hard right republican. Lawyers will bring complaints against Trump because of it, but so far he has not coerced anyone. I don't think anybody brought up legality because most logical peopl know that he was throwing red meat to his racist base. We have a few supporters here that would support anything that he does and they are 3 out of the 100 Trump supporters with college degrees. They are valiant in their efforts to support this nonsense. They will use made up friends and made up supreme court opinions to support their narrative, but the Supreme Court actually upheld flag burning, so we should probably get rid of lens sees what the protesters are doing as something that is illegal. I am one of the three supporters, we are united. We already spoke amongst one another and said that we would say we supported Dr. King's protest that advocated for equality and some facets of socialism. We all have at least one black person that we say hi to or exchange pleasantries with at games, sometimes I cross my fingers so it really doesn't count.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

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