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Topic:  RE: Ohio State Opening

Topic:  RE: Ohio State Opening
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SBH
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 3,754

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 9:59:50 AM 
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.
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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,212

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 10:06:58 AM 
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.

Last Edited: 2/17/2024 10:13:29 AM by FJC31
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,486

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 10:44:08 AM 
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.



If anyone can do it, then I am with Giacomo in that we are seriously overpaying coaches.
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greencat
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Member Since: 3/12/2005
Post Count: 2,057

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 11:09:10 AM 
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.



I was at the "Bracket Buster" game at Belmont that time and JC couldn't coach his was out of a paper bag compared to Rick Byrd. It was a coaching mismatch of epic proportions.

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Ohio
Post Count: 4,307

Status: Online
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 11:39:33 AM 
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.



I guess we should just go without a coach, then? or if we have good players coming back, we can just tell the coach to take a year off.

(that was dumb)
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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,212

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 11:53:30 AM 
greencat wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.



I was at the "Bracket Buster" game at Belmont that time and JC couldn't coach his was out of a paper bag compared to Rick Byrd. It was a coaching mismatch of epic proportions.



+1. He also got swept by Akron that season including the MAC title game thumping. JC just wasn’t it.
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Jerry86
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Member Since: 12/18/2010
Post Count: 645

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 3:08:55 PM 
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.






Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


You are aware Groce was 11-5, 69 percent, tied for 3rd in the Sweet 16 year. Christian followed that up with 14-2, 88 percent, in MAC play and tied for 1st. 14 > 11.

As far as Christian being a year away from being fired at TCU ... Ummm, he had his best year there the year prior to coming to Athens with 18 wins.
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Jerry86
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Member Since: 12/18/2010
Post Count: 645

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 3:23:29 PM 
FJC31 wrote:
greencat wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.



I was at the "Bracket Buster" game at Belmont that time and JC couldn't coach his was out of a paper bag compared to Rick Byrd. It was a coaching mismatch of epic proportions.



+1. He also got swept by Akron that season including the MAC title game thumping. JC just wasn’t it.


And how is Boals doing against Akron?

As far as having a prior coach's players, Boals did have Preston and VanderPlas from Saul's team.
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GraffZ06
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Member Since: 1/5/2005
Location: Dayton, OH
Post Count: 1,914

Status: Online
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 3:32:43 PM 
*inserts obvious comment here*

NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!

This Groce vs. Christian debate just underscores the above so much it's mind numbing.

Groce won 3 NCAA tourney games. Christian won 0.
Groce was 9-2 in the MAC tournament. Christian was 3-2.

John Groce won games that mattered. Christian did not.

The fact that JC was able to go 14-2 in January with a Sweet 16 team, along with $5, will get you a Starbucks latte.

And no, I'm not saying regular games are completely meaningless. Of course they matter as it pertains to getting the team and players ready and in the best position for Cleveland. When results matter.
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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,212

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 3:46:15 PM 
Jerry86 wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.






Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


You are aware Groce was 11-5, 69 percent, tied for 3rd in the Sweet 16 year. Christian followed that up with 14-2, 88 percent, in MAC play and tied for 1st. 14 > 11.

As far as Christian being a year away from being fired at TCU ... Ummm, he had his best year there the year prior to coming to Athens with 18 wins.


Well aware, I was a student during Groce’s final season. You’d rather have 14 regular season MAC wins instead of 11 and a Sweet 16? Weird flex, man.

You are correct, he had 18 wins prior to coming Athens. Why did he bounce at the first opportunity to leave with TCU heading to the Big12 after his lone high note season? His overall record was 56-73 and a MWC record of 18-44. A poor start to the next season and he’s canned.

There’s a reason JC is seven years older than Groce and riding the bench as an assistant, meanwhile the ladder has a legit shot at another P5 job after the season.


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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,212

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 3:47:48 PM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
*inserts obvious comment here*

NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!

This Groce vs. Christian debate just underscores the above so much it's mind numbing.

Groce won 3 NCAA tourney games. Christian won 0.
Groce was 9-2 in the MAC tournament. Christian was 3-2.

John Groce won games that mattered. Christian did not.

The fact that JC was able to go 14-2 in January with a Sweet 16 team, along with $5, will get you a Starbucks latte.

And no, I'm not saying regular games are completely meaningless. Of course they matter as it pertains to getting the team and players ready and in the best position for Cleveland. When results matter.


Hallelujah. +1000. Amazing how many people are advocating for JC’s 14 regular season MAC wins in comparison to Groce’s 11 and a Sweet 16 the year before.
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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,212

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/17/2024 3:52:58 PM 
Jerry86 wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
greencat wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.




Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


Sigh. He won 25 games and went 14-2 in the MAC, good for a first-place tie for the title. Next year he won 24 games. Groce never finished higher than third in the division...but got hot in the tourney.



Are you really trying to advocate that Christian is a better coach than Groce after winning 25 games with Groce’s players? Anyone on this board could have won 25 regular season games with that team and actually have been liked in the process. It was autopilot.



I was at the "Bracket Buster" game at Belmont that time and JC couldn't coach his was out of a paper bag compared to Rick Byrd. It was a coaching mismatch of epic proportions.



+1. He also got swept by Akron that season including the MAC title game thumping. JC just wasn’t it.


And how is Boals doing against Akron?

As far as having a prior coach's players, Boals did have Preston and VanderPlas from Saul's team.



No argument from me. The rest of the season and next is big for Boals imo.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Ohio
Post Count: 4,307

Status: Online
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/18/2024 10:29:05 AM 
FJC31 wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
*inserts obvious comment here*

NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!

This Groce vs. Christian debate just underscores the above so much it's mind numbing.

Groce won 3 NCAA tourney games. Christian won 0.
Groce was 9-2 in the MAC tournament. Christian was 3-2.

John Groce won games that mattered. Christian did not.

The fact that JC was able to go 14-2 in January with a Sweet 16 team, along with $5, will get you a Starbucks latte.

And no, I'm not saying regular games are completely meaningless. Of course they matter as it pertains to getting the team and players ready and in the best position for Cleveland. When results matter.


Hallelujah. +1000. Amazing how many people are advocating for JC’s 14 regular season MAC wins in comparison to Groce’s 11 and a Sweet 16 the year before.


I don't think anyone is saying that, nor are they saying they would trade the sweet 16 for that great regular season. But a bunch of keyboard warriors saying JC is an incompetent boob of a coach is utterly ridiculous. If it's so easy to win 14 games in a single conference season, why has it happened only twice in like 40 years?
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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,212

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/18/2024 10:42:26 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
*inserts obvious comment here*

NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!

This Groce vs. Christian debate just underscores the above so much it's mind numbing.

Groce won 3 NCAA tourney games. Christian won 0.
Groce was 9-2 in the MAC tournament. Christian was 3-2.

John Groce won games that mattered. Christian did not.

The fact that JC was able to go 14-2 in January with a Sweet 16 team, along with $5, will get you a Starbucks latte.

And no, I'm not saying regular games are completely meaningless. Of course they matter as it pertains to getting the team and players ready and in the best position for Cleveland. When results matter.


Hallelujah. +1000. Amazing how many people are advocating for JC’s 14 regular season MAC wins in comparison to Groce’s 11 and a Sweet 16 the year before.


I don't think anyone is saying that, nor are they saying they would trade the sweet 16 for that great regular season. But a bunch of keyboard warriors saying JC is an incompetent boob of a coach is utterly ridiculous. If it's so easy to win 14 games in a single conference season, why has it happened only twice in like 40 years?


It’s not ridiculous to call JC an incompetent coach. Since leaving Kent, his overall record is 183-227 and conference is 69-147. My argument remains the same, he was never the right hire and the 14 regular season MAC wins are so irrelevant without a conference title when you factor what he took over.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Ohio
Post Count: 4,307

Status: Online
  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/18/2024 11:02:24 AM 
FJC31 wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
*inserts obvious comment here*

NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!

This Groce vs. Christian debate just underscores the above so much it's mind numbing.

Groce won 3 NCAA tourney games. Christian won 0.
Groce was 9-2 in the MAC tournament. Christian was 3-2.

John Groce won games that mattered. Christian did not.

The fact that JC was able to go 14-2 in January with a Sweet 16 team, along with $5, will get you a Starbucks latte.

And no, I'm not saying regular games are completely meaningless. Of course they matter as it pertains to getting the team and players ready and in the best position for Cleveland. When results matter.


Hallelujah. +1000. Amazing how many people are advocating for JC’s 14 regular season MAC wins in comparison to Groce’s 11 and a Sweet 16 the year before.


I don't think anyone is saying that, nor are they saying they would trade the sweet 16 for that great regular season. But a bunch of keyboard warriors saying JC is an incompetent boob of a coach is utterly ridiculous. If it's so easy to win 14 games in a single conference season, why has it happened only twice in like 40 years?


It’s not ridiculous to call JC an incompetent coach. Since leaving Kent, his overall record is 183-227 and conference is 69-147. My argument remains the same, he was never the right hire and the 14 regular season MAC wins are so irrelevant without a conference title when you factor what he took over.


Hmmm... yes it is. Again, why hasn't anyone else won 14 of 16 conference games? Akron was better that year. they proved it. They were probably better the year before but we were hotter at the right time. The MAC tournament for better or worse, means more than it should. it's 3 games, back to back nights. it's far more random. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win.
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GraffZ06
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Location: Dayton, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/18/2024 1:25:55 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Hmmm... yes it is. Again, why hasn't anyone else won 14 of 16 conference games? Akron was better that year. they proved it. They were probably better the year before but we were hotter at the right time. The MAC tournament for better or worse, means more than it should. it's 3 games, back to back nights. it's far more random. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win.


Ahh yes the old random argument. Surely small sample sizes imply you're right. But then again why do the same teams and coaches always seem to get so lucky (because it's just random after all) over and over again while others don't. Makes you wonder. Almost like putting a team together, preparing and coaching them for a 3-day tournament is a skill?
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/18/2024 1:46:24 PM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Hmmm... yes it is. Again, why hasn't anyone else won 14 of 16 conference games? Akron was better that year. they proved it. They were probably better the year before but we were hotter at the right time. The MAC tournament for better or worse, means more than it should. it's 3 games, back to back nights. it's far more random. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win.


Ahh yes the old random argument. Surely small sample sizes imply you're right. But then again why do the same teams and coaches always seem to get so lucky (because it's just random after all) over and over again while others don't. Makes you wonder. Almost like putting a team together, preparing and coaching them for a 3-day tournament is a skill?


Is the distribution of this beyond what it would be given that some teams are just better overall to begin with. I think that if it is then it is barely so. I'm not going to say that there isn't a small impact here. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there is a real ability varying between coaches in preparing a team for the postseason. However, In my experience people are a terrible judge of such things and always want to assign a reason for deviations that would fall well within what would be expected at random. The value in that is probably nowhere near, I mean nowhere near, what John Q Fan thinks it is.

Last Edited: 2/18/2024 1:48:54 PM by Victory
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GraffZ06
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/18/2024 5:42:52 PM 
It's Jake Diebler's to lose at this point. Just knocked off #2 Purdue.
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Andrew Ruck
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Location: Columbus, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/19/2024 8:19:20 AM 
I think they try a few big names, fail to secure any and go back to the well with Diebler. Especially if they grab a few more nice wins these last couple weeks.

But keep in mind - March creates media darlings of coaches. Any mid-major could go on a run that hoists their coach as the guy everyone has to have. Illinois would not have hired Groce if we didn't beat Michigan & USF...and probably wouldn't have hired him if we didn't come so close to beating UNC.

Last Edited: 2/19/2024 8:21:50 AM by Andrew Ruck

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/19/2024 10:25:56 AM 
Huggybear, who has been attending most WVU home games this winter, was in the Schottenstein Center yesterday. Just saying.
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M.D.W.S.T
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/19/2024 11:05:14 AM 
GraffZ06 wrote:


NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!



Put this on a shirt.
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/19/2024 11:28:34 PM 
FJC31 wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
SBH wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
[QUOTE=GraffZ06] Once upon a time our program was on a trajectory that one could now argue; had it's legs cut out from underneath by going with Christian instead of taking a chance on Dustin Ford.




Christian had a pretty good first year. He also had some studs signed. I doubt Dustin could have matched that. Of course, we also learned that Christian is an asshole, but I think any reasonable person at the time would have agreed Dustin was not the better choice.

As for the alleged benefits of continuity, I present you the examples of Dale Bandy, Billy Hahn and Brian Knorr.

Still waiting for fact-based evidence that Lamar Thornton is qualified to be our head coach.






Did Christian have a good first year? He inherited a Sweet 16 team and couldn’t even repeat as MAC champ. It would have been comically embarrassing if he couldn’t win at least 20 games that season.

I argued then and all argue now, Christian was jumping off a sinking ship and Schaus gave him a lifeline. He was a season away from getting fired by TCU; he was never a better choice.


You are aware Groce was 11-5, 69 percent, tied for 3rd in the Sweet 16 year. Christian followed that up with 14-2, 88 percent, in MAC play and tied for 1st. 14 > 11.

As far as Christian being a year away from being fired at TCU ... Ummm, he had his best year there the year prior to coming to Athens with 18 wins.


Well aware, I was a student during Groce’s final season. You’d rather have 14 regular season MAC wins instead of 11 and a Sweet 16? Weird flex, man.

You are correct, he had 18 wins prior to coming Athens. Why did he bounce at the first opportunity to leave with TCU heading to the Big12 after his lone high note season? His overall record was 56-73 and a MWC record of 18-44. A poor start to the next season and he’s canned.

There’s a reason JC is seven years older than Groce and riding the bench as an assistant, meanwhile the ladder has a legit shot at another P5 job after the season.




Well, Mr. Brilliant. JC has more money in the bank or in investments, than Groce likely will ever have. In case you're more challenged than I thought, the HC job at BC paid a heck of a lot more than at Akron. Any more thoughts?
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/19/2024 11:34:54 PM 
FJC31 wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
FJC31 wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
*inserts obvious comment here*

NOBODY GIVES A FLYING RATS BEHIND ABOUT REGULAR SEASON MAC WINS!

This Groce vs. Christian debate just underscores the above so much it's mind numbing.

Groce won 3 NCAA tourney games. Christian won 0.
Groce was 9-2 in the MAC tournament. Christian was 3-2.

John Groce won games that mattered. Christian did not.

The fact that JC was able to go 14-2 in January with a Sweet 16 team, along with $5, will get you a Starbucks latte.

And no, I'm not saying regular games are completely meaningless. Of course they matter as it pertains to getting the team and players ready and in the best position for Cleveland. When results matter.


Hallelujah. +1000. Amazing how many people are advocating for JC’s 14 regular season MAC wins in comparison to Groce’s 11 and a Sweet 16 the year before.


I don't think anyone is saying that, nor are they saying they would trade the sweet 16 for that great regular season. But a bunch of keyboard warriors saying JC is an incompetent boob of a coach is utterly ridiculous. If it's so easy to win 14 games in a single conference season, why has it happened only twice in like 40 years?


It’s not ridiculous to call JC an incompetent coach. Since leaving Kent, his overall record is 183-227 and conference is 69-147. My argument remains the same, he was never the right hire and the 14 regular season MAC wins are so irrelevant without a conference title when you factor what he took over.


Do you understand anything about college basketball? Anything at all? So, coaching at BC in the ACC is on par with coaching in the MAC? JC should have number to match Groce at Akron?? Okay. I have nothing more to say.
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/19/2024 11:42:23 PM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Hmmm... yes it is. Again, why hasn't anyone else won 14 of 16 conference games? Akron was better that year. they proved it. They were probably better the year before but we were hotter at the right time. The MAC tournament for better or worse, means more than it should. it's 3 games, back to back nights. it's far more random. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win.


Ahh yes the old random argument. Surely small sample sizes imply you're right. But then again why do the same teams and coaches always seem to get so lucky (because it's just random after all) over and over again while others don't. Makes you wonder. Almost like putting a team together, preparing and coaching them for a 3-day tournament is a skill?



It's not a random argument at all. Except you decide it is. If you're bored go back to Athens and actually take some courses in sampling theory, statistics, correlation analysis and non-randomness.

Groce's MAC record at Ohio was mediocre. FACT. You think winning 53 percent of MAC games is impressive in 4 years? WOW. I love we finished 6th, 5th, 3rd and 3rd during his tenure.
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GraffZ06
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio State Opening
   Posted: 2/20/2024 12:18:45 AM 
Jerry86 wrote:

It's not a random argument at all. Except you decide it is. If you're bored go back to Athens and actually take some courses in sampling theory, statistics, correlation analysis and non-randomness.

Groce's MAC record at Ohio was mediocre. FACT. You think winning 53 percent of MAC games is impressive in 4 years? WOW. I love we finished 6th, 5th, 3rd and 3rd during his tenure.


Hmm. Me thinks you don't want to get into a debate about mathematics and degree qualifications with me. I'm well aware of "sampling theory" - Nyquist says hello. We'll leave it there (not that it really matters).

You continuing to quote regular season statistics is the problem. Nobody that's paying attention cares. Go root for a P5 team with at-large aspirations if you want to bow at the alter of regular season wins and championships. The rest of us in the real world will continue to analyze performances based on the post-season when it actually matters.

The NCAA doesn't hand out $$ for win-shares for regular season wins. You know where they do that? The NCAA tournament. I wonder why that is? Maybe because that's where all the $$ is made. Why? Because that's when you have national eyeballs and attention. Sorta like, that's when it matters on a national level.

The goal isn't to be the best team in Appalachia. It's to be national champs. If that's not the goal, then go find a different league/association where you can have realistic championship goals (My opinion on football just entered the chat).
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