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Topic:  Boals' offensive scheme

Topic:  Boals' offensive scheme
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  Boals' offensive scheme
   Posted: 1/17/2025 8:28:46 PM 
What is it? Can someone explain it to me?

That's not a rhetorical question after a bad loss; I'm genuinely curious, and I've been trying to figure it out for a few games now.

What's the philosophy?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Boals' offensive scheme
   Posted: 1/18/2025 12:14:42 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
What is it? Can someone explain it to me?

That's not a rhetorical question after a bad loss; I'm genuinely curious, and I've been trying to figure it out for a few games now.

What's the philosophy?


Philosophy is simple. Put brownish-orange ball in the hole, more than the other guy.
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Bobcat Jerry
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  Message Not Read  Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/18/2025 7:45:12 AM 
Watched the Bobcats on Friday and watched the recorded Nuggets against the Heat this morning. Here's my observations for the Bobcats to consider.

Protect the basket ! Allowing "practice layups" by the opposition is not an idea. Uncontested shots are deadly.

Pass the ball ! Ball movement to the open man gives the shooter a much higher percentage of a basket.
Point guard "jitter bug" running around is not an offense. Pass, Pass, Pass.

Dunk the ball ! Complete shots to the basket.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/18/2025 9:44:21 AM 
To prompt some discussion, here's some of what I've seen/found:

1) Boals does seem to run and prefer an unstructured offensive scheme with limited set plays. Here's a link (https://basketballimmersion.com/the-basketball-podcast-ep... /) to a podcast where he talks a bit about it:

Some key quotes:

Quote:

“When you run a lot of sets, teams are starting to switch everything more and make you play basketball. They’ll guard ball screens a certain way, not not let you come off and keep you on one side of the floor . . I think if you just teach some concepts of playing basketball, it’s going to take away all the switching.”


Quote:

If you do something like that [play a more unstructured offense], sometimes it allows you to play your five best players. Find a way to get your best five guys on the floor . . and let them figure it out . . there’s got to be a trust involved and there’s got to be some teaching concepts involved.


2) This year it feels like a disproportionate percentage of our half-court possessions rely really heavily on the same action: Clayton flashes to the top of the key beyond the three point line and either a) Sets a pick and rolls, b) Sets a pick and fades to create a three point attempt.

That's clearly the spot where Boals/Clayton feel like he's most effective. But as an action, it feels pretty limited for a few reasons:

-- It feels like it's actually pretty rare that Clayton's getting the ball when he rolls to the basket. Last night, he didn't even seem to be committing to the cut in a way that suggested he wanted the ball. I feel like I can count on one hand the number of times that he's scored off of a roll, but I may just be failing to remember.

-- The pick and pop is really effective. Clayton's got a quick, high release so he doesn't need a ton of space to get a three up. But when teams manage to take that away -- and Akron did a very good job of that by going over the screen and basically daring Clayton to beat them rolling to the basket -- possessions fall apart very fast. When Clayton has the ball at the top of the key and doesn't have an open look, nothing happens. He never beats his man off the dribble and creates, and basically 100% of the time the next action is a dribble handoff to one of the guys on the wings.

-- Because Clayton doesn't finish much as the roll man, that cut basically has no gravitational pull. If our number one offensive option's cutting to the basket and not bringing multiple defenders with him -- or at least causing a help defenders to take a step or two towards the paint to help -- it means less space for the wings.

3) That main half-court option doesn't create enough good looks against competent defensive teams, but because we don't run a lot of set plays, we go long stretches where we're only getting so-so looks.

4) It seems like Clayton is the only guy we work hard to get specific types of shots. Others are way better at seeing the game than I am, but it looks like we don't run sets to create space for AJB and Reef, both of whom are shooting +40% from three.

Ultimately, it feels like Boals' leans in hard on position-less basketball, simple motion principles, and the idea that with the right level of talent guys will figure it out. That worked with a ton of versatile offensive players like Preston, BVP, Mark Sears, and a big who demanded actual attention in Dwight Wilson.

Since then, it's felt very stagnant for long stretches. It's hard not to worry that Boals' can't actually recruit the level of guy he needs to make his scheme work consistently.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/18/2025 9:48:55 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
To prompt some discussion, here's some of what I've seen/found:

1) Boals does seem to run and prefer an unstructured offensive scheme with limited set plays. Here's a link (https://basketballimmersion.com/the-basketball-podcast-ep... /) to a podcast where he talks a bit about it:

Some key quotes:

Quote:

“When you run a lot of sets, teams are starting to switch everything more and make you play basketball. They’ll guard ball screens a certain way, not not let you come off and keep you on one side of the floor . . I think if you just teach some concepts of playing basketball, it’s going to take away all the switching.”


Quote:

If you do something like that [play a more unstructured offense], sometimes it allows you to play your five best players. Find a way to get your best five guys on the floor . . and let them figure it out . . there’s got to be a trust involved and there’s got to be some teaching concepts involved.


2) This year it feels like a disproportionate percentage of our half-court possessions rely really heavily on the same action: Clayton flashes to the top of the key beyond the three point line and either a) Sets a pick and rolls, b) Sets a pick and fades to create a three point attempt.

That's clearly the spot where Boals/Clayton feel like he's most effective. But as an action, it feels pretty limited for a few reasons:

-- It feels like it's actually pretty rare that Clayton's getting the ball when he rolls to the basket. Last night, he didn't even seem to be committing to the cut in a way that suggested he wanted the ball. I feel like I can count on one hand the number of times that he's scored off of a roll, but I may just be failing to remember.

-- The pick and pop is really effective. Clayton's got a quick, high release so he doesn't need a ton of space to get a three up. But when teams manage to take that away -- and Akron did a very good job of that by going over the screen and basically daring Clayton to beat them rolling to the basket -- possessions fall apart very fast. When Clayton has the ball at the top of the key and doesn't have an open look, nothing happens. He never beats his man off the dribble and creates, and basically 100% of the time the next action is a dribble handoff to one of the guys on the wings.

-- Because Clayton doesn't finish much as the roll man, that cut basically has no gravitational pull. If our number one offensive option's cutting to the basket and not bringing multiple defenders with him -- or at least causing a help defenders to take a step or two towards the paint to help -- it means less space for the wings.

3) That main half-court option doesn't create enough good looks against competent defensive teams, but because we don't run a lot of set plays, we go long stretches where we're only getting so-so looks.

4) It seems like Clayton is the only guy we work hard to get specific types of shots. Others are way better at seeing the game than I am, but it looks like we don't run sets to create space for AJB and Reef, both of whom are shooting +40% from three.

Ultimately, it feels like Boals' leans in hard on position-less basketball, simple motion principles, and the idea that with the right level of talent guys will figure it out. That worked with a ton of versatile offensive players like Preston, BVP, Mark Sears, and a big who demanded actual attention in Dwight Wilson.

Since then, it's felt very stagnant for long stretches. It's hard not to worry that Boals' can't actually recruit the level of guy he needs to make his scheme work consistently.



I think that is a very solid take, and shows the limitations of some of our better players. The question is how we adjust and move forward. Every game is a learning experience.
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FJC31
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Member Since: 3/31/2022
Post Count: 1,522

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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/19/2025 10:34:36 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
To prompt some discussion, here's some of what I've seen/found:

1) Boals does seem to run and prefer an unstructured offensive scheme with limited set plays. Here's a link (https://basketballimmersion.com/the-basketball-podcast-ep... /) to a podcast where he talks a bit about it:

Some key quotes:

Quote:

“When you run a lot of sets, teams are starting to switch everything more and make you play basketball. They’ll guard ball screens a certain way, not not let you come off and keep you on one side of the floor . . I think if you just teach some concepts of playing basketball, it’s going to take away all the switching.”


Quote:

If you do something like that [play a more unstructured offense], sometimes it allows you to play your five best players. Find a way to get your best five guys on the floor . . and let them figure it out . . there’s got to be a trust involved and there’s got to be some teaching concepts involved.


2) This year it feels like a disproportionate percentage of our half-court possessions rely really heavily on the same action: Clayton flashes to the top of the key beyond the three point line and either a) Sets a pick and rolls, b) Sets a pick and fades to create a three point attempt.

That's clearly the spot where Boals/Clayton feel like he's most effective. But as an action, it feels pretty limited for a few reasons:

-- It feels like it's actually pretty rare that Clayton's getting the ball when he rolls to the basket. Last night, he didn't even seem to be committing to the cut in a way that suggested he wanted the ball. I feel like I can count on one hand the number of times that he's scored off of a roll, but I may just be failing to remember.

-- The pick and pop is really effective. Clayton's got a quick, high release so he doesn't need a ton of space to get a three up. But when teams manage to take that away -- and Akron did a very good job of that by going over the screen and basically daring Clayton to beat them rolling to the basket -- possessions fall apart very fast. When Clayton has the ball at the top of the key and doesn't have an open look, nothing happens. He never beats his man off the dribble and creates, and basically 100% of the time the next action is a dribble handoff to one of the guys on the wings.

-- Because Clayton doesn't finish much as the roll man, that cut basically has no gravitational pull. If our number one offensive option's cutting to the basket and not bringing multiple defenders with him -- or at least causing a help defenders to take a step or two towards the paint to help -- it means less space for the wings.

3) That main half-court option doesn't create enough good looks against competent defensive teams, but because we don't run a lot of set plays, we go long stretches where we're only getting so-so looks.

4) It seems like Clayton is the only guy we work hard to get specific types of shots. Others are way better at seeing the game than I am, but it looks like we don't run sets to create space for AJB and Reef, both of whom are shooting +40% from three.

Ultimately, it feels like Boals' leans in hard on position-less basketball, simple motion principles, and the idea that with the right level of talent guys will figure it out. That worked with a ton of versatile offensive players like Preston, BVP, Mark Sears, and a big who demanded actual attention in Dwight Wilson.

Since then, it's felt very stagnant for long stretches. It's hard not to worry that Boals' can't actually recruit the level of guy he needs to make his scheme work consistently.



Good find with the Boals quotes and breakdown. What you’re saying here, is a continuation of our discussion in the Buffalo thread.

The team that beat Virginia looks like such an outlier because it’s the only team Boals has had whose personnel matched what he needs to run his scheme. We’ve been missing parts ever since.
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/19/2025 12:45:15 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
] . . .Ultimately, it feels like Boals' leans in hard on position-less basketball, simple motion principles, and the idea that with the right level of talent guys will figure it out. That worked with a ton of versatile offensive players like Preston, BVP, Mark Sears, and a big who demanded actual attention in Dwight Wilson.


I think that this is best short summary of Boals coaching style that I've seen, and I think you are right in implying that Boals has not adjusted his approach based on the talent we currently have on the team. Great coaches do this. Mediocre coaches keep trying to make square pegs fit into round holes. I think that this is one thing that made Jim Snyder such a great coach. He could evaluate talent and then design a team and an offense around that talent.

I sense on limited exposure that both Elliott and Evans are players who will fit into Boals' philosophy and preferred style of play. But they are both very young and somewhat raw at this time. I'm not sure that they will make enough improvement this year to make a major difference. I hope that by tournament time they are playing like sophomores and we go on a nice run, and I have to eat every negative word I've said about this team on this board.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/19/2025 3:25:59 PM 
Teams that win pass the ball and have lots of assist. Teams that lose dribble the ball a lot and don’t move off the ball or find the open man.
And, good coaches adjust to the talent that they have. Seems to me Boals just can’t adjust from whatever his philosophy is no matter the personnel

Last Edited: 1/19/2025 3:30:26 PM by Casper71
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/19/2025 5:05:12 PM 
Casper71 wrote:
Teams that win pass the ball and have lots of assist. Teams that lose dribble the ball a lot and don’t move off the ball or find the open man.


We're in the top 100 nationally in team assists. I don't think over-dribbling and ball movement is the issue; I think we have pretty bad spacing and don't work hard enough to create open looks for shooters with sets designed to do so.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/19/2025 5:11:39 PM 
Good info. Looking at the Akron game, it seemed we really struggled when the offensive possession settled and we had to find a way to create an opportunity. Our success was when we went quick and went right after it. Generally speaking with this team, I don't have a ton of confidence in this team when our point guard is slowly dribbling at the top of the key and I think a little more order would help.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Denver Nuggets
   Posted: 1/19/2025 6:00:32 PM 
I'm a fan of the motion offense. We just need to improve in execution, and not be so focused on individual play.

Remember the "flex" offense from TOS days? Are we running anything like that?
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