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Topic:  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...

Topic:  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/20/2022 11:19:33 AM 
BLSS:

I wasn't talking about the difficulty of building in the USA vs Europe, but the difficulty in tearing down. They repurpose buildings much better and with greater regularity in most of Europe than we do in the US, at least this is true in Italy, Spain, Iceland, France, the U.K, Austria and Germany, where I have some personal experience.

I think a case in point on our own campus is old Super Hall. It was torn down in the Sowle Era because of declining enrollment and a Board of Regents space analysis. This was at the low ebb of enrollment after the big post-Vietnam draft enrollment decline, which was greatly exacerbated at OHIO, for reasons too complicated to discuss in this context.

Then several years later, as enrollment increased back up again, we were short of space, so they built the Bentley Annex on the same space once occupied by Super Hall. Now, would it not have been more efficient to have mothballed Super Hall for a decade, and then refurbished it when the enrollment increased again? But, that's just not the American way. We'd rather tear down a perfectly good building and then rebuild on that same spot.

We Americans are very wasteful when it comes to this type of thing. I think it stems back to pioneer days when we saw the countryside as containing an inexhaustible supply of natural resources -- trees for lumber and heating, minerals (like iron, copper and coal) for building and locomotion, etc. We have never learned the value of conservation the way they have in Europe.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/20/2022 8:20:09 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BLSS:

I wasn't talking about the difficulty of building in the USA vs Europe, but the difficulty in tearing down. They repurpose buildings much better and with greater regularity in most of Europe than we do in the US, at least this is true in Italy, Spain, Iceland, France, the U.K, Austria and Germany, where I have some personal experience.


What sort of buildings are you referring to and do you have any data to this effect? Wasn't able to find any but, truthfully, unsure what to even google so not surprising I didn't turn up anything.


OhioCatFan wrote:

I think a case in point on our own campus is old Super Hall. It was torn down in the Sowle Era because of declining enrollment and a Board of Regents space analysis. This was at the low ebb of enrollment after the big post-Vietnam draft enrollment decline, which was greatly exacerbated at OHIO, for reasons too complicated to discuss in this context.

Then several years later, as enrollment increased back up again, we were short of space, so they built the Bentley Annex on the same space once occupied by Super Hall. Now, would it not have been more efficient to have mothballed Super Hall for a decade, and then refurbished it when the enrollment increased again? But, that's just not the American way. We'd rather tear down a perfectly good building and then rebuild on that same spot.


I'm not sure which is more efficient. I think it depends on how you define efficiency. "Mothballing" for a decade is expensive; and of course, you're proposing that with the benefit of hindsight armed with the knowledge the need for the space will arise again. Is indefinitely "mothballing" a building efficient or sustainable? What sort of timeline do you put on a thing like that and how much cost are you willing to put into it?


OhioCatFan wrote:

We Americans are very wasteful when it comes to this type of thing. I think it stems back to pioneer days when we saw the countryside as containing an inexhaustible supply of natural resources -- trees for lumber and heating, minerals (like iron, copper and coal) for building and locomotion, etc. We have never learned the value of conservation the way they have in Europe.



What's being wasted, exactly? I think this is closely related to my question above about how 'efficiency' is defined in this context. In the example you've provided, it seems like there was likely a net gain in that the building built continues to serve its purpose decades later while Super Hall would have had to accrue upkeep costs and then refurbishment costs. I won't pretend to know if 10 years of upkeep costs plus refurbishment costs would be less expensive than building from scratch, but I also am unsure how the buildings themselves actually compare.

Also -- I suspect that perhaps a more rational explanation for your theory is that much of American architecture's been focused on utilitarianism. It's been one of the guiding building principles in the country since the mid 1800s. It stands to reason that a building designed for utility be torn down when it's no longer utilized.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/21/2022 9:06:14 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Also -- I suspect that perhaps a more rational explanation for your theory is that much of American architecture's been focused on utilitarianism. It's been one of the guiding building principles in the country since the mid 1800s. It stands to reason that a building designed for utility be torn down when it's no longer utilized.


Well, your alternate theory would not explain the McMansion phenomenon. I know of several neighborhoods in cities across the country where perfectly good homes have been torn down and replaced by so-called McMansions. One of these is a house in Lexington, Massachusetts, where a cape cod that my parents had rented in 1955 when Dad had a Ford Fellowship at Harvard has now been replaced by a McMansion, at the expense of most of the nice yard that used to surround the quaint New England style home. In another case a house that a friend of my wife's grew up in in Bexley, Ohio, was recently replaced by a McMansion. This kind of thing goes on all over the USA, and I submit is probably much rarer in Europe. If you have data to prove, otherwise, I'm all ears.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/21/2022 1:06:21 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Also -- I suspect that perhaps a more rational explanation for your theory is that much of American architecture's been focused on utilitarianism. It's been one of the guiding building principles in the country since the mid 1800s. It stands to reason that a building designed for utility be torn down when it's no longer utilized.


Well, your alternate theory would not explain the McMansion phenomenon. I know of several neighborhoods in cities across the country where perfectly good homes have been torn down and replaced by so-called McMansions. One of these is a house in Lexington, Massachusetts, where a cape cod that my parents had rented in 1955 when Dad had a Ford Fellowship at Harvard has now been replaced by a McMansion, at the expense of most of the nice yard that used to surround the quaint New England style home. In another case a house that a friend of my wife's grew up in in Bexley, Ohio, was recently replaced by a McMansion. This kind of thing goes on all over the USA, and I submit is probably much rarer in Europe. If you have data to prove, otherwise, I'm all ears.



Thankfully, in Europe, cultures view buildings as more than temporary structures. In the French village of Ribeauville, I like to rent an apartment that one enters in a house that was built in 1513. Is it the village's oldest structure? Nah. A two-story structure with a ground floor restaurant topped by a hotel was built in 1392. On the edge of British village Petworth, a friend lives on a farm with three structures. The youngest is the house, about 200 years old. There is also a guest cottage that was built as a livestock shed some 300 years ago. The oldest of the structures is a barn that goes back 400 years; you can see how it has evolved with the first part built from stones and later bricks.

Last Edited: 6/21/2022 1:09:18 PM by Mike Johnson


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/21/2022 1:45:07 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Also -- I suspect that perhaps a more rational explanation for your theory is that much of American architecture's been focused on utilitarianism. It's been one of the guiding building principles in the country since the mid 1800s. It stands to reason that a building designed for utility be torn down when it's no longer utilized.


If the prerequisite for tearing down a structure, is that its no longer needed
for the purpose (utility) for which it was built, why are they keeping the Roman Colosseum, Egyptian Pyramids and the Acropolis ?

I mean the Parthenon doesn't even have a roof anymore. :-)

I'm sure, in the case of Acropolis ,there are much better uses for a property with such great views.



Last Edited: 6/21/2022 1:46:32 PM by rpbobcat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/21/2022 3:31:38 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Also -- I suspect that perhaps a more rational explanation for your theory is that much of American architecture's been focused on utilitarianism. It's been one of the guiding building principles in the country since the mid 1800s. It stands to reason that a building designed for utility be torn down when it's no longer utilized.


If the prerequisite for tearing down a structure, is that its no longer needed
for the purpose (utility) for which it was built, why are they keeping the Roman Colosseum, Egyptian Pyramids and the Acropolis ?

I mean the Parthenon doesn't even have a roof anymore. :-)

I'm sure, in the case of Acropolis ,there are much better uses for a property with such great views.



Because those buildings are historic and carry significance. The Colosseum was built in 80 AD.

Scott Quad was finished in 1950. If you can't replace an unused building because it's "historic" after 70 years, even if it's not being used, what can you replace?
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/21/2022 3:43:32 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Because those buildings are historic and carry significance. The Colosseum was built in 80 AD.

Scott Quad was finished in 1950. If you can't replace an unused building because it's "historic" after 70 years, even if it's not being used, what can you replace?


So what you're saying is that, if we wait long enough, just like the with Colosseum, Scott Quad could be considered historic, have significance and be worth saving ?

Works for me.

Last Edited: 6/21/2022 3:44:01 PM by rpbobcat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/21/2022 4:46:51 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Because those buildings are historic and carry significance. The Colosseum was built in 80 AD.

Scott Quad was finished in 1950. If you can't replace an unused building because it's "historic" after 70 years, even if it's not being used, what can you replace?


So what you're saying is that, if we wait long enough, just like the with Colosseum, Scott Quad could be considered historic, have significance and be worth saving ?

Works for me.


Yep, we just have to wait until Scott Quad has 6 million visitors a year because of its historical significance.

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/22/2022 8:43:09 AM 
The Colosseum should be torn down due to it's ties to the cruel practice of slavery and murder in the Roman Empire. It's offensive to the descendants of these victims.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/22/2022 10:45:02 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
The Colosseum should be torn down due to it's ties to the cruel practice of slavery and murder in the Roman Empire. It's offensive to the descendants of these victims.


Yeah, especially because it was erected in the 1920s as a means of commemorating the people who supported that slavery and murder.

Or wait, maybe I'm mixing that up with the vast majority of Confederate Monuments in the United States?
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/22/2022 9:22:48 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
The Colosseum should be torn down due to it's ties to the cruel practice of slavery and murder in the Roman Empire. It's offensive to the descendants of these victims.


Yeah, especially because it was erected in the 1920s as a means of commemorating the people who supported that slavery and murder.

Or wait, maybe I'm mixing that up with the vast majority of Confederate Monuments in the United States?


Thousands of slaves died in the Roman Coliseum during Gladiator battles like many football players will die from CTE. These types of barbaric practices should be outlawed due to their ties to paganism


I've seen crazier things happen.

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/23/2022 9:28:32 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BLSS:

I wasn't talking about the difficulty of building in the USA vs Europe, but the difficulty in tearing down. They repurpose buildings much better and with greater regularity in most of Europe than we do in the US, at least this is true in Italy, Spain, Iceland, France, the U.K, Austria and Germany, where I have some personal experience.

I think a case in point on our own campus is old Super Hall. It was torn down in the Sowle Era because of declining enrollment and a Board of Regents space analysis. This was at the low ebb of enrollment after the big post-Vietnam draft enrollment decline, which was greatly exacerbated at OHIO, for reasons too complicated to discuss in this context.

Then several years later, as enrollment increased back up again, we were short of space, so they built the Bentley Annex on the same space once occupied by Super Hall. Now, would it not have been more efficient to have mothballed Super Hall for a decade, and then refurbished it when the enrollment increased again? But, that's just not the American way. We'd rather tear down a perfectly good building and then rebuild on that same spot.

We Americans are very wasteful when it comes to this type of thing. I think it stems back to pioneer days when we saw the countryside as containing an inexhaustible supply of natural resources -- trees for lumber and heating, minerals (like iron, copper and coal) for building and locomotion, etc. We have never learned the value of conservation the way they have in Europe.



I couldnít agree more! Thatís why itís a such a pleasure to visit Italy, France , Spain, etc. Who wants to visit strip malls in Columbus? We build new structures right down the road from existing structures that could be repurposed. Wasteful.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 6/24/2022 6:44:35 AM 
giacomo wrote:

Who wants to visit strip malls in Columbus? We build new structures right down the road from existing structures that could be repurposed. Wasteful.


When I read this, all I could of was the Pretenders' "My City Was Gone".


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stub
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/3/2022 12:58:51 PM 
https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/readers_forum/connecti...

Here's the link to an A News letter by Tim Traxler

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