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Topic:  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...

Topic:  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/11/2022 7:21:48 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Itís very sad that they couldnít find a way to repurpose the building. As we all get older things change and weíre not going to like it.


I think its pretty clear that its not that O.U. "couldn't" repurpose Scott Quad.

Its that, for whatever reason, they didn't want to.


Its because Scott Quad is an east green period building on the gateway to west green. Didn't fit with the campus flow.


What the heck is "campus flow"? Sounds like "administrative speak" with little or no meaning. And, for the record, it's not on the East Green. It predates the East Green, which was built after WWII. Scott Quad was built in 1937. Like Howard Hall, which was also torn down, it wasn't really on a dormitory green. That we couldn't keep a venerable old quadrangle is a real shame. It's just part of American "throw away" culture.


"Campus flow" seems like a pretty self-explanatory concept to me. Campuses are designed, right? And they're designed to accommodate the way they're used. In fact, I'd argue that the single most famous feature of our campus is a direct result of taking "campus flow" into consideration; on college green, the walkways don't actually connect buildings as you might expect them to. Rather, architects mapped where students actually walked -- the way the campus flowed -- and put the walkways where they're needed.
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/12/2022 10:43:26 AM 
SBH wrote:
I suspect that if OCF had his druthers, he'd still be staring through the drafty windows of old Ewing Hall, throwing elbows on the hardwood at Bentley, eating supper in Super Hall, bunking in Howard and trying to land a date outside Boyd Gymnasium. That is, when he's not joining Rufus and Manasseh for a pint at the Bunch of Grapes.



I appreciate the humor, and there's a grain of truth in your sarcasm.

Interesting, though, that you mention Bentley (aka Men's Gym). That was an example where the university repurposed a building rather than tearing it down. I submit that this could have been done with many of the buildings we've torn down over the last several decades.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 12,691

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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/12/2022 11:01:19 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Itís very sad that they couldnít find a way to repurpose the building. As we all get older things change and weíre not going to like it.


I think its pretty clear that its not that O.U. "couldn't" repurpose Scott Quad.

Its that, for whatever reason, they didn't want to.


Its because Scott Quad is an east green period building on the gateway to west green. Didn't fit with the campus flow.


What the heck is "campus flow"? Sounds like "administrative speak" with little or no meaning. And, for the record, it's not on the East Green. It predates the East Green, which was built after WWII. Scott Quad was built in 1937. Like Howard Hall, which was also torn down, it wasn't really on a dormitory green. That we couldn't keep a venerable old quadrangle is a real shame. It's just part of American "throw away" culture.


"Campus flow" seems like a pretty self-explanatory concept to me. Campuses are designed, right? And they're designed to accommodate the way they're used. In fact, I'd argue that the single most famous feature of our campus is a direct result of taking "campus flow" into consideration; on college green, the walkways don't actually connect buildings as you might expect them to. Rather, architects mapped where students actually walked -- the way the campus flowed -- and put the walkways where they're needed.


First, architects didn't map where students walked. The original walkways kind of did connect buildings. Then, over the years, as paths were made connecting various existing walkways efforts were made to keep students walking on the existing walkways. When that failed, they gave up and put in new walkways to accommodate the actual walking patterns of the students and faculty. This wasn't done as part of some brainy architectural planning, it was done by the recommendation the physical plant folks who in some cases put in new walkways more out of exasperation than anything else.

Second, why was Scott Quad out of the "campus flow" when it was right along the path used by many to get from the Campus Green area to the Clippinger/Accelerator/New South Area, and it was practically across the street from Gordy Hall? That's the problem with an administrative-speak term like "campus flow." It can mean any damn thing you want it to mean, and you can use it to justify anything you want. If they'd decided to keep Scott and repurpose it, you'd hear these same folks talking about how it fit into the campus flow and helped connect the Campus Green with the southern part of the campus.

Last Edited: 7/12/2022 8:02:12 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/12/2022 3:54:08 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
SBH wrote:
I suspect that if OCF had his druthers, he'd still be staring through the drafty windows of old Ewing Hall, throwing elbows on the hardwood at Bentley, eating supper in Super Hall, bunking in Howard and trying to land a date outside Boyd Gymnasium. That is, when he's not joining Rufus and Manasseh for a pint at the Bunch of Grapes.



I appreciate the humor, and there's a grain of truth in your sarcasm.

Interesting, though, that you mention Bentley (aka Men's Gym). That was an example where the university repurposed a building rather than tearing it down. I submit that this could have been done with many of the buildings we've torn down over the last several decades.


Very good point! Keeping the older buildings and re-purposing gives the campus and university character. I know some may be unavoidable, but Scott Quad was in a great location and this was not necessary. If we tear everything down, a prospective student might as well go to Hocking Tech.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 2,568

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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/12/2022 9:30:57 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Itís very sad that they couldnít find a way to repurpose the building. As we all get older things change and weíre not going to like it.


I think its pretty clear that its not that O.U. "couldn't" repurpose Scott Quad.

Its that, for whatever reason, they didn't want to.


Its because Scott Quad is an east green period building on the gateway to west green. Didn't fit with the campus flow.


What the heck is "campus flow"? Sounds like "administrative speak" with little or no meaning. And, for the record, it's not on the East Green. It predates the East Green, which was built after WWII. Scott Quad was built in 1937. Like Howard Hall, which was also torn down, it wasn't really on a dormitory green. That we couldn't keep a venerable old quadrangle is a real shame. It's just part of American "throw away" culture.


"Campus flow" seems like a pretty self-explanatory concept to me. Campuses are designed, right? And they're designed to accommodate the way they're used. In fact, I'd argue that the single most famous feature of our campus is a direct result of taking "campus flow" into consideration; on college green, the walkways don't actually connect buildings as you might expect them to. Rather, architects mapped where students actually walked -- the way the campus flowed -- and put the walkways where they're needed.


First, architects didn't map where students walked. The original walkways kind of did connect buildings. Then, over the years, as paths were made connecting various existing walkways efforts were made to keep students walking on the existing walkways. When that failed, they gave up and put in new walkways to accommodate the actual walking patterns of the students and faculty. This wasn't done as part of some brainy architectural planning, it was done by the recommendation the physical plant folks who in some cases put in new walkways more out of exasperation than anything else.

Second, why was Scott Quad out of the "campus flow" when it was right along the path used by many to get from the Campus Green area to the Clippinger/Accelerator/New South Area, and it was practically across the street from Gordy Hall? That's the problem with an administrative-speak term like "campus flow." It can mean any damn thing you want it to mean, and you can use it to justify anything you want. If they'd decided to keep Scott and repurpose it, you'd hear these same folks talking about how it fit into the campus flow and helped connect the Campus Green with the southern part of the campus.



My campus tour guide lied to me. Though, it still seems specifically about flow.

Second, you just made up the idea that "campus flow" is administrative speak. A poster here used it. You decided it was administrative speak. I just posted that I followed what that poster was saying.

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 12,691

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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/12/2022 10:54:02 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
Itís very sad that they couldnít find a way to repurpose the building. As we all get older things change and weíre not going to like it.


I think its pretty clear that its not that O.U. "couldn't" repurpose Scott Quad.

Its that, for whatever reason, they didn't want to.


Its because Scott Quad is an east green period building on the gateway to west green. Didn't fit with the campus flow.


What the heck is "campus flow"? Sounds like "administrative speak" with little or no meaning. And, for the record, it's not on the East Green. It predates the East Green, which was built after WWII. Scott Quad was built in 1937. Like Howard Hall, which was also torn down, it wasn't really on a dormitory green. That we couldn't keep a venerable old quadrangle is a real shame. It's just part of American "throw away" culture.


"Campus flow" seems like a pretty self-explanatory concept to me. Campuses are designed, right? And they're designed to accommodate the way they're used. In fact, I'd argue that the single most famous feature of our campus is a direct result of taking "campus flow" into consideration; on college green, the walkways don't actually connect buildings as you might expect them to. Rather, architects mapped where students actually walked -- the way the campus flowed -- and put the walkways where they're needed.


First, architects didn't map where students walked. The original walkways kind of did connect buildings. Then, over the years, as paths were made connecting various existing walkways efforts were made to keep students walking on the existing walkways. When that failed, they gave up and put in new walkways to accommodate the actual walking patterns of the students and faculty. This wasn't done as part of some brainy architectural planning, it was done by the recommendation the physical plant folks who in some cases put in new walkways more out of exasperation than anything else.

Second, why was Scott Quad out of the "campus flow" when it was right along the path used by many to get from the Campus Green area to the Clippinger/Accelerator/New South Area, and it was practically across the street from Gordy Hall? That's the problem with an administrative-speak term like "campus flow." It can mean any damn thing you want it to mean, and you can use it to justify anything you want. If they'd decided to keep Scott and repurpose it, you'd hear these same folks talking about how it fit into the campus flow and helped connect the Campus Green with the southern part of the campus.



My campus tour guide lied to me. Though, it still seems specifically about flow.

Second, you just made up the idea that "campus flow" is administrative speak. A poster here used it. You decided it was administrative speak. I just posted that I followed what that poster was saying.



I was once a university administrator. I know administrative speak when I see it. In fact, in my weaker moments, I have engaged in it in past. I've since repented from that particular sin.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/13/2022 12:23:23 PM 
In addition to being an Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor, I'm also licensed as a Professional Planner.

I looked through all my references to try an and find any reference to "Campus Flow" or anything similar.

Nothing.

Google wasn't any help either.

Most of my planning work is redevelopment (Urban Renewal) so I called a Landscape Architect friend of mine.

He does a lot of work with universities in this area.

He never heard of "Campus Flow" either.

I asked him to read tis thread.

He said "Campus Flow" seems to be a " Manufactured Term".

He said he agreed with OCF that, since the term is not "defined" ,it can mean
pretty much anything you want it to.





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Kinggeorge4
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Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: Guysville, OH
Post Count: 884

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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/13/2022 2:36:47 PM 
I'm not sure when I first heard the phrase Campus Flow, but it is used a lot here in meetings.


GO BOBCATS
GEORGE

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 2,568

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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/13/2022 3:47:24 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
In addition to being an Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor, I'm also licensed as a Professional Planner.

I looked through all my references to try an and find any reference to "Campus Flow" or anything similar.

Nothing.

Google wasn't any help either.

Most of my planning work is redevelopment (Urban Renewal) so I called a Landscape Architect friend of mine.

He does a lot of work with universities in this area.

He never heard of "Campus Flow" either.

I asked him to read tis thread.

He said "Campus Flow" seems to be a " Manufactured Term".

He said he agreed with OCF that, since the term is not "defined" ,it can mean
pretty much anything you want it to.



I'm not really following.

Club Hyatt used the term. OCF said "that sounds like administrative speak". I said "I followed what he meant." OCF said "that's administrative speak because it can mean anything." You googled it, found nothing. Yet have concluded that that's evidence that the phrase is, indeed, administrative speak.

It's a phrase that was used here. By a person here. With context that we can use to try and understand what was meant. I'm unclear why asking your friend makes any sense. We could, you know, ask Club Hyatt.

In my view, the administration tore down Scott Hall because it was filled with mold, cost a ton to keep up, wasn't well positioned to be a dorm, and would require a lot of investment to convert to office space.

I get that you all would prefer it not have been torn down, and get that when old things are replaced it makes you upset, but the administration's justification here is clear -- whether you agree with the conclusion or not.
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/13/2022 11:34:47 PM 
BLSS: You believe the administrationís statements about the rationale for tearing down Scott Quad. I do not. When was the last time you were in Scott Quad? I was in it many times when I was working as there were administrative offices in that building. I had meetings there with top administrators in the university communication office. The building was just fine. The only deterioration in the intervening years was due to neglect, some probably purposeful in order to justify a previously arrived at decision. You may know more about private business than I do, but you know way less than I do about the ways of university administrations. You also know way less about engineering and related disciplines than rpbobcat. A little introspection might be in order. Just a friendly suggestion.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 12:48:02 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BLSS: You believe the administrationís statements about the rationale for tearing down Scott Quad. I do not. When was the last time you were in Scott Quad? I was in it many times when I was working as there were administrative offices in that building. I had meetings there with top administrators in the university communication office. The building was just fine. The only deterioration in the intervening years was due to neglect, some probably purposeful in order to justify a previously arrived at decision. You may know more about private business than I do, but you know way less than I do about the ways of university administrations. You also know way less about engineering and related disciplines than rpbobcat. A little introspection might be in order. Just a friendly suggestion.


+1.
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 7:38:44 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
In addition to being an Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor, I'm also licensed as a Professional Planner.

I looked through all my references to try an and find any reference to "Campus Flow" or anything similar.

Nothing.

Google wasn't any help either.

Most of my planning work is redevelopment (Urban Renewal) so I called a Landscape Architect friend of mine.

He does a lot of work with universities in this area.

He never heard of "Campus Flow" either.

I asked him to read tis thread.

He said "Campus Flow" seems to be a " Manufactured Term".

He said he agreed with OCF that, since the term is not "defined" ,it can mean
pretty much anything you want it to.



I'm not really following.

Club Hyatt used the term. OCF said "that sounds like administrative speak". I said "I followed what he meant." OCF said "that's administrative speak because it can mean anything." You googled it, found nothing. Yet have concluded that that's evidence that the phrase is, indeed, administrative speak.

It's a phrase that was used here. By a person here. With context that we can use to try and understand what was meant. I'm unclear why asking your friend makes any sense. We could, you know, ask Club Hyatt.

In my view, the administration tore down Scott Hall because it was filled with mold, cost a ton to keep up, wasn't well positioned to be a dorm, and would require a lot of investment to convert to office space.

I get that you all would prefer it not have been torn down, and get that when old things are replaced it makes you upset, but the administration's justification here is clear -- whether you agree with the conclusion or not.


If you reread my post, you'll see that, before I "googled" "campus flow" ,I tried to find that term , or something similar , in the references I use as a Professional Planner.

When I didn't find anything, I went to "google" .

Again, if you reread my post, you'll see that most of my planning work is Redevelopment (Urban Renewal).

My friend, perhaps you'd prefer I used the word "colleague", since we've worked together on an number of projects, is a Licensed Landscape Architect who does a lot of work with Universities in this area.

He's one of the top Landscape Architects in New York and New Jersey.

One of his areas of expertise is designing landscape/hardscape for areas around new or renovated buildings on a college campus.
He also designs "Streetscapes".

So, contacting him , did make a lot of sense.

You note the pre demolition condition of Scott Quad, and say "the administration's justification here is clear".

As I posted, in my opinion O.U. makes a decision on what they want to
do with a particular building, like the T.B. ward, then take the steps needed to justify what they are going to do.

Their favorite method seems to be "deferred maintenance".

(Do nothing until a building deteriorates to a point where you can justify demolition)

As I also posted, because of "bat infestation" O.U. decided that it wasn't cost effective to remediate the problem (remove the bats and fix the openings they used to get in) at 29 Park Place.

So they said it could no longer be used as the presidential residence.

Now they pay a housing stipend.

But wait.

Remediating the problem wasn't cost effective for use as a residence.

But, spending millions, including I presume, addressing the "bat" problem, to "repurpose " the place was ?

O.U. could have saved Scott Quad if they wanted to ,by just doing "regular" maintenance.

They wanted it gone, and "backed into" a way to do it.





Last Edited: 7/14/2022 9:31:57 AM by rpbobcat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 11:43:13 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
In addition to being an Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor, I'm also licensed as a Professional Planner.

I looked through all my references to try an and find any reference to "Campus Flow" or anything similar.

Nothing.

Google wasn't any help either.

Most of my planning work is redevelopment (Urban Renewal) so I called a Landscape Architect friend of mine.

He does a lot of work with universities in this area.

He never heard of "Campus Flow" either.

I asked him to read tis thread.

He said "Campus Flow" seems to be a " Manufactured Term".

He said he agreed with OCF that, since the term is not "defined" ,it can mean
pretty much anything you want it to.



I'm not really following.

Club Hyatt used the term. OCF said "that sounds like administrative speak". I said "I followed what he meant." OCF said "that's administrative speak because it can mean anything." You googled it, found nothing. Yet have concluded that that's evidence that the phrase is, indeed, administrative speak.

It's a phrase that was used here. By a person here. With context that we can use to try and understand what was meant. I'm unclear why asking your friend makes any sense. We could, you know, ask Club Hyatt.

In my view, the administration tore down Scott Hall because it was filled with mold, cost a ton to keep up, wasn't well positioned to be a dorm, and would require a lot of investment to convert to office space.

I get that you all would prefer it not have been torn down, and get that when old things are replaced it makes you upset, but the administration's justification here is clear -- whether you agree with the conclusion or not.


If you reread my post, you'll see that, before I "googled" "campus flow" ,I tried to find that term , or something similar , in the references I use as a Professional Planner.

When I didn't find anything, I went to "google" .

Again, if you reread my post, you'll see that most of my planning work is Redevelopment (Urban Renewal).

My friend, perhaps you'd prefer I used the word "colleague", since we've worked together on an number of projects, is a Licensed Landscape Architect who does a lot of work with Universities in this area.

He's one of the top Landscape Architects in New York and New Jersey.

One of his areas of expertise is designing landscape/hardscape for areas around new or renovated buildings on a college campus.
He also designs "Streetscapes".

So, contacting him , did make a lot of sense.

You note the pre demolition condition of Scott Quad, and say "the administration's justification here is clear".

As I posted, in my opinion O.U. makes a decision on what they want to
do with a particular building, like the T.B. ward, then take the steps needed to justify what they are going to do.

Their favorite method seems to be "deferred maintenance".

(Do nothing until a building deteriorates to a point where you can justify demolition)

As I also posted, because of "bat infestation" O.U. decided that it wasn't cost effective to remediate the problem (remove the bats and fix the openings they used to get in) at 29 Park Place.

So they said it could no longer be used as the presidential residence.

Now they pay a housing stipend.

But wait.

Remediating the problem wasn't cost effective for use as a residence.

But, spending millions, including I presume, addressing the "bat" problem, to "repurpose " the place was ?

O.U. could have saved Scott Quad if they wanted to ,by just doing "regular" maintenance.

They wanted it gone, and "backed into" a way to do it.



Still not really any closer to understanding what's going on here.

Club Hyatt used the phrase "campus flow" -- not the administration, as evidenced by the fact that Google and the 100 strangers on the street you polled Family Feud Style hadn't heard it.

From the context, it seemed pretty clear to me.

I'm very unclear how everything else you're saying relates at all to anything I said. I just said that I understand why the administration made this decision, and followed Club Hyatt's point.

Whether they "backed into" it has nothing to do with anything I said; it's your own way of finding a way to be critical of the decision. Totally cool, you're welcome to do it. It's the favorite hobby of old grads all the world over. But it's entirely irrelevant to what I said.
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,293

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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 12:31:33 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
In addition to being an Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor, I'm also licensed as a Professional Planner.

I looked through all my references to try an and find any reference to "Campus Flow" or anything similar.

Nothing.

Google wasn't any help either.

Most of my planning work is redevelopment (Urban Renewal) so I called a Landscape Architect friend of mine.

He does a lot of work with universities in this area.

He never heard of "Campus Flow" either.

I asked him to read tis thread.

He said "Campus Flow" seems to be a " Manufactured Term".

He said he agreed with OCF that, since the term is not "defined" ,it can mean
pretty much anything you want it to.



I'm not really following.

Club Hyatt used the term. OCF said "that sounds like administrative speak". I said "I followed what he meant." OCF said "that's administrative speak because it can mean anything." You googled it, found nothing. Yet have concluded that that's evidence that the phrase is, indeed, administrative speak.

It's a phrase that was used here. By a person here. With context that we can use to try and understand what was meant. I'm unclear why asking your friend makes any sense. We could, you know, ask Club Hyatt.

In my view, the administration tore down Scott Hall because it was filled with mold, cost a ton to keep up, wasn't well positioned to be a dorm, and would require a lot of investment to convert to office space.

I get that you all would prefer it not have been torn down, and get that when old things are replaced it makes you upset, but the administration's justification here is clear -- whether you agree with the conclusion or not.


If you reread my post, you'll see that, before I "googled" "campus flow" ,I tried to find that term , or something similar , in the references I use as a Professional Planner.

When I didn't find anything, I went to "google" .

Again, if you reread my post, you'll see that most of my planning work is Redevelopment (Urban Renewal).

My friend, perhaps you'd prefer I used the word "colleague", since we've worked together on an number of projects, is a Licensed Landscape Architect who does a lot of work with Universities in this area.

He's one of the top Landscape Architects in New York and New Jersey.

One of his areas of expertise is designing landscape/hardscape for areas around new or renovated buildings on a college campus.
He also designs "Streetscapes".

So, contacting him , did make a lot of sense.

You note the pre demolition condition of Scott Quad, and say "the administration's justification here is clear".

As I posted, in my opinion O.U. makes a decision on what they want to
do with a particular building, like the T.B. ward, then take the steps needed to justify what they are going to do.

Their favorite method seems to be "deferred maintenance".

(Do nothing until a building deteriorates to a point where you can justify demolition)

As I also posted, because of "bat infestation" O.U. decided that it wasn't cost effective to remediate the problem (remove the bats and fix the openings they used to get in) at 29 Park Place.

So they said it could no longer be used as the presidential residence.

Now they pay a housing stipend.

But wait.

Remediating the problem wasn't cost effective for use as a residence.

But, spending millions, including I presume, addressing the "bat" problem, to "repurpose " the place was ?

O.U. could have saved Scott Quad if they wanted to ,by just doing "regular" maintenance.

They wanted it gone, and "backed into" a way to do it.



Still not really any closer to understanding what's going on here.

Club Hyatt used the phrase "campus flow" -- not the administration, as evidenced by the fact that Google and the 100 strangers on the street you polled Family Feud Style hadn't heard it.

From the context, it seemed pretty clear to me.

I'm very unclear how everything else you're saying relates at all to anything I said. I just said that I understand why the administration made this decision, and followed Club Hyatt's point.

Whether they "backed into" it has nothing to do with anything I said; it's your own way of finding a way to be critical of the decision. Totally cool, you're welcome to do it. It's the favorite hobby of old grads all the world over. But it's entirely irrelevant to what I said.


My post responded to the specific comments you made , including that, in your opinion, my speaking to a friend (colleague) about what "campus flow" was made no sense.

So, in actuality, my post related to and was directly relevant to everything you posted.

As far as O.U. "backing in" , as I discussed in detail in my posts, O.U. seems to decide what they want to do with structure, then figure out a way to do it.

Since O.U. took down Scott Quad, its now a "moot point" .

I just wonder how long it will be before O.U. will come out and say, just like with the T.B. Ward, " opps we made a big mistake".

As far as a "hobby of old grads . . ."

To me, preserving history, in this case, a unique campus structure, going back to the 1930's ,is what universities should strive for.

That's one of the goals of Professional Planning, to make every effort to preserve an area's "character".

Obviously, O.U. doesn't follow that philosophy.
Guess they never discussed it with any of their professors that teach Urban Planning.


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 5:00:28 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:

My post responded to the specific comments you made , including that, in your opinion, my speaking to a friend (colleague) about what "campus flow" was made no sense.

So, in actuality, my post related to and was directly relevant to everything you posted.


Okay, man. All I said was I understood what Club Hyatt was getting at. Sorry your friend doesn't agree? I suspect -- and I'm just spitballing here -- that if your friend had been part of the conversation here and read the words and context they might have understood what Club Hyatt was getting at, too.

And in fact, I think you understand what he means. You just disagree with the assessment. Which is fine. But that this has turned into a weird thing where you're getting outsiders opinions on phrases is just truly baffling to me. At no point did anybody, including Club Hyatt who first used the phrase, suggest it's a common phrase, or that it played into the decision by the Administration.

rpbobcat wrote:

As far as O.U. "backing in" , as I discussed in detail in my posts, O.U. seems to decide what they want to do with structure, then figure out a way to do it.


And as I discussed, I don't really care. That's very much something you care about, but is completely irrelevant to me. I don't care when or how OU made the decision to tear down Scott Quad. I don't care about Scott Quad at all. I don't think it's one of the prettier buildings on campus, I don't think it's in the top 15. I don't think it holds much significance, and if the University wants to get rid of, they should. They're not beholden to any sort of decision making process so this conversation about the order of operations is completely irrelevant to me.


rpbobcat wrote:

I just wonder how long it will be before O.U. will come out and say, just like with the T.B. Ward, " opps we made a big mistake".

As far as a "hobby of old grads . . ."

To me, preserving history, in this case, a unique campus structure, going back to the 1930's ,is what universities should strive for.


Yeah, you've made clear you don't like the choice. As I stated, I don't think Scott Quad's a particularly important historic building. It's just kind of old.

I empathize much more with OCF's perspective that repurposing buildings is more efficient (I don't know if it is or not, I'm not an expert here -- but I get the perspective). I don't really get the idea that Scott Quad rises to a level that it can never be replaced because it's old and a quad. It's not even half the age of the University.

rpbobcat wrote:

That's one of the goals of Professional Planning, to make every effort to preserve an area's "character".

Obviously, O.U. doesn't follow that philosophy.
Guess they never discussed it with any of their professors that teach Urban Planning.


I don't think that's a standard goal of urban planning. It may be a goal for some, but it's certainly not always the driving factor.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 6:16:28 PM 

When it comes to repairing, restoring, repurposing, it's too bad we've not had the second coming of John Baker. When he arrived at Ohio in 1945, our beloved Cutler Hall was unused and crumbling (a sizable crack could be seen from top to bottom). The building was to be razed.

Not so fast, said President Baker, who had arrived from Harvard where, if you've walked Harvard Yard, you can see the care and respect afforded older structures.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/14/2022 8:40:47 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
When it comes to repairing, restoring, repurposing, it's too bad we've not had the second coming of John Baker. When he arrived at Ohio in 1945, our beloved Cutler Hall was unused and crumbling (a sizable crack could be seen from top to bottom). The building was to be razed.

Not so fast, said President Baker, who had arrived from Harvard where, if you've walked Harvard Yard, you can see the care and respect afforded older structures.



+1

Yes, President John C. Baker was a true gem. He had a good sense of the importance of, as one of my fellow preservationists put it, "the witness that old buildings impart to our understanding of the aesthetic and cultural history of our surroundings." Perhaps, the closest we've had since was Charlie Ping.

On a personal note, JCB recruited my father back to OHIO from the U.S. Navy Postgraduate School in Annapolis. If it hadn't been for him, I might well have been raised as beach bum in Monterey, Calif, where the PG moved in 1950.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/15/2022 6:47:29 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I'm not an expert here



I agree 100% with you on this


Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I don't think that's a standard goal of urban planning. It may be a goal for some, but it's certainly not always the driving factor.



That's your opinion.
Fine ,you're entitled to it.

But its not in line with what I was taught in my Urban Planning classes.

If you read my posts, I've been talking about repurposing Scott Quad since its
demolition was first brought up.

Again ,"repurposing" is one of the methods we use to be able to preserve a structure, but maintain "functionality".


Last Edited: 7/15/2022 6:56:43 AM by rpbobcat

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/15/2022 7:08:16 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


It's the favorite hobby of old grads all the world over. But it's entirely irrelevant to what I said.


I guess you missed the stories in The Post about saving Scott Quad.

Their staff would hardly fit your "old grads" designation.


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/15/2022 8:49:34 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BLSS: You believe the administrationís statements about the rationale for tearing down Scott Quad. I do not. When was the last time you were in Scott Quad? I was in it many times when I was working as there were administrative offices in that building. I had meetings there with top administrators in the university communication office. The building was just fine. The only deterioration in the intervening years was due to neglect, some probably purposeful in order to justify a previously arrived at decision. You may know more about private business than I do, but you know way less than I do about the ways of university administrations. You also know way less about engineering and related disciplines than rpbobcat. A little introspection might be in order. Just a friendly suggestion.


Sorry, where am I suggesting that I know more about either of those things than you do? I've acknowledged what I don't know many times in this thread.

The three of us have a fundamental disagreement that has nothing to do with engineering or university administration. Our fundamental disagreement is about whether or not Scott Quad is such a critical piece of the University's history and character that it should be preserved. It just doesn't rise to that level for me.

I also just don't have any good reason not to take the administration at face value here. I'm not sure I understand why a nefarious plot's needed to replace a building. You all are approaching this from a baseline in which you assume it's a given that Scott Quad's such a historic building that it couldn't possibly be replaced. It's a necessary belief to reach the conclusion that the deterioration of Scott Quad was due, in part, to "purposeful neglect" to justify the decision to tear down the building.

But if, like me, you think of Scott Quad as a middle-of-the-road building that adds little to the character of campus, there's no justification needed. It just never would have occurred to me that it's irreplaceable, and as such the idea that the University would have to devise a plot of "purposeful neglect" to justify the decision to demolish it seems odd to me.

As I said to rpbobcat:

Quote:

I empathize much more with OCF's perspective that repurposing buildings is more efficient (I don't know if it is or not, I'm not an expert here -- but I get the perspective). I don't really get the idea that Scott Quad rises to a level that it can never be replaced because it's old and a quad. It's not even half the age of the University.


The debate over repurposing vs. replacing resonates with me. The character piece here just doesn't, in this case. If Scott Quad's irreplaceable, what is replaceable? I know folks are fired up about this, but from my perspective it's just a building. There are plenty of buildings and components of the University's character that should be preserved at all cost. I just don't really feel Scott Quad's one of them.

Sorry if that opinion somehow makes you feel like I'm critiquing your expertise on University Administration or rpbobcat's Engineering knowledge. I don't see them as related and I'm unsure why you think they are.


Last Edited: 7/15/2022 9:17:12 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/15/2022 8:54:43 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I'm not an expert here



I agree 100% with you on this


Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I don't think that's a standard goal of urban planning. It may be a goal for some, but it's certainly not always the driving factor.



That's your opinion.
Fine ,you're entitled to it.

But its not in line with what I was taught in my Urban Planning classes.

If you read my posts, I've been talking about repurposing Scott Quad since its
demolition was first brought up.

Again ,"repurposing" is one of the methods we use to be able to preserve a structure, but maintain "functionality".




You were taught in your urban planning classes that preserving the character of a region should always be a driving factor in urban planning? Would be curious to read about this if you can provide any links.

Again, not an expert, but that doesn't seem logical to me. I would expect the discipline to be focused on things that are far more tangible than "character". Things like quality of life, ease of transportation, campus flow**, attracting new residents, safety, and others. If you can accomplish those things in tandem with preserving character, great. But if character's in conflict with any of the above, I would think the hierarchy is clear. Am I wrong?



** Just kidding.

Last Edited: 7/15/2022 8:56:01 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/15/2022 10:17:35 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


You were taught in your urban planning classes that preserving the character of a region should always be a driving factor in urban planning? Would be curious to read about this if you can provide any links.

Again, not an expert, but that doesn't seem logical to me. I would expect the discipline to be focused on things that are far more tangible than "character". Things like quality of life, ease of transportation, campus flow**, attracting new residents, safety, and others. If you can accomplish those things in tandem with preserving character, great. But if character's in conflict with any of the above, I would think the hierarchy is clear. Am I wrong?



** Just kidding.


This is going to sound like semantics, but I used the word "area" for a reason.

Most of the Urban Renewal/ Redevelopment projects I've designed are several "street blocks", within one municipality.

They are not large "regional projects".
Those are much more involved when it comes to what stays and what goes.
(see politics)

" Character" is a primary driving force in designing a renewal.

The things you stated do carry some weight.

But the people in the area where the renewal project is proposed are very particular about their "neighborhood" and they carry a lot of weight.

As such we take great pains to "not through out the baby with bath water".

There are, of course, some areas where I've worked ,I won't mention the towns, where there wasn't anything worth preserving.

Structures people want saved don't have to be that old.

Churches are one of the structures that are usually "untouchable" ,same with
certain "pocket parks" with intrinsic values.

Can't tell you how many churches we've had to move.

We've also found that a structure's condition isn't necessarily pertinent to
saving it.

I was doing a redevelopment project, that included an abandoned, "sand bottom" pool.
The "Bath House" was a wood frame barn like structure, that dated back to the early/mid 1800's that was, to be polite, in a state of disrepair.

Didn't matter.
The Town told us it had to be saved.

That meant building a frame around it, moving it to an alternate site and
then restoring it.

I can tell you this, if Scott Quad was in this area, it would probably
still be standing.


Last Edited: 7/15/2022 10:18:48 AM by rpbobcat

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/16/2022 12:14:22 AM 
Iíve seen many such things in my day. I think it boils down to being a caretaker to the older and historic structures versus being or trying to be an inventor of something new. Our country wants to be an innovator, not a caretaker, so it mows down these structures and builds something new to strut like a peacock.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/16/2022 12:29:35 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Iíve seen many such things in my day. I think it boils down to being a caretaker to the older and historic structures versus being or trying to be an inventor of something new. Our country wants to be an innovator, not a caretaker, so it mows down these structures and builds something new to strut like a peacock.


Too true. Last week when I was in Ribeauville, France, a new roof - red-tiled - was replacing the original tiles on the roof of the village hall - built in 1764. Virtually every building in the village has a red-tiled roof, and those tiles are expected to last for at least 200 years. The home of my friends Christophe and Laura was built in 1513, and most of the roof tiles are originals (back in 2015, they converted one end of their house into a 2-story apartment which required new tiles). Here in the States? Most homes have roofs that are expected to last all of 20 years. I do see more metal roofs; how long are they expected to last?

I don't see residents of that village and others strutting like peacocks, but I do see a quiet pride - that shows in the flower boxes below virtually every window.


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Goodbye Scott Quad...
   Posted: 7/16/2022 3:34:57 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:


Here in the States? Most homes have roofs that are expected to last all of 20 years. I do see more metal roofs; how long are they expected to last?



Most homeowners use a "25 year" fiberglass/asphalt shingle.
They should last,20-25 years.

They also make a "high end" fiberglass/asphalt shingle that should last 50 years.
Actually the shingles a guaranteed for life .

But,its not just the shingles.

To get the above longevity/warranty ,you have to install the manufacturer's roofing "system".

That includes " underlayment ","ice dam" and usually some type of "ridge vent".

An interlocking metal roofing system should last as least 50 years.

The tile system you mentioned is great.
So is slate.
But,a number homes' roofs can't support the weight,especially with "snow load".












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