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Topic:  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges

Topic:  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/25/2022 11:36:17 AM 
All because of our GOP-led legislation thanks to gerrymandered districts.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 8:48:05 AM 
Pataskala wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
Not only that, Pataskala, but the new law "permits a qualifying adult to legally carry, possess, or conceal a handgun without a license, background check, or training requirements."

Except Ohioans can't bring a gun into the statehouse, where our GOP-controlled legislature passed said law.


Oh, and during traffic stops you're supposed to tell the cop that you a have a concealed gun, as if that's ever going to happen. They passed the law despite the opposition of every police group in the state. The gun lobby's money (most of which comes from gun manufacturers than gun owners) talks louder than law enforcement.


Philando Castile told Jernimo Yanez he was a CCW holder when he was pulled over. We all know how that worked out.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 9:57:28 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
gedunkman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
PhiTau74 wrote:
We also know from 2019 FBI statistics that blacks commit 51.2% of all Murders and 57.1% of robberies, source 2019 FBI stats. 13% of the population commits 51.2% of the murders, go figure. Democrats totally believe the FBI regarding everything regarding Trump so live with it.


There were 4,078 black people arrested for murder in 2019.

Not 41.6 million. Which is what the number would be if "13% of the population" was really committing murders. Rather, a small subset of 41.6 million people committed murders.

But go on. Really curious how you're going to conclude that little point of yours.



You apparently weren't a math major, or you've misconstrued PhiTau74's statement. What he clearly said was that blacks make up 13 percent of the U.S. population, but disproportionally committed 51.2 percent of the murders in 2019 (most of them against other blacks, as we all know from other reporting). The number of murders and non-negligent homicides that year, according to FBI stats that I looked up, was 14,915. That would mean blacks committed roughly 7636 of those murders or non-negligent homicides, which is disproportionate to their percent of the total population. He did not say that every black in the U.S. committed a murder. That's the only way you come up with your ludicrous figure of 41.6 murders.


Sorry dude, but I wasn't clear. I didn't suggest that there were 41.6 million murders. I was pointing out that not all black people commit murders, and in fact the vast, vast majority do not. So a stat like " 13% of the population commits 52% of the murders" lumps 41 million+ innocent American citizens with ~5,000 criminals. Statistics don't get less meaningful than that.

You might also want to note that PhiTau cited this stat as a critique of others who had the audacity to suggest that racial profiling is bad. In other words, it was cited as justification for said profiling.

Given the huge disparity between the number of black Americans and the number of black Americans committing murders, do you think racial profiling is justified? Because without realizing it, you're choosing to support PhiTau's argument that it is.

So, yes, I know Phi didn't say every black person committed a murder. What he did suggest is that because murders are perpetrated by black people at a high rate, it's justified that police profile them. And I think the rights and freedoms of 41 million perfectly innocent, hardworking Americans are important to protect.

But curious to hear if you all disagree.


You're really going to double down? Your initial response clearly showed you did not understand the numbers being cited and point being made. Now you're saying you knew all along but were just not wanting 41 million lumped into the small subset? I don't buy it. This is basic data analysis, comparing the % makeup of a population to the % makeup of a particular dataset (in this case murders). Literally no one would take that as lumping the entire race as murderers. Come on.

I did not take it as a call to racial profile. The jump from traffic stops to murder stats I will acknowledge was abrupt...but it does bring into the discussion that yes maybe black drivers do more things behind the wheel to warrant being pulled over? Why is it off limits to consider it? Do we really have to just assume and accept it is because of widespread systemic racism? Sorry I don't blindly accept things like that and neither should you.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 10:19:11 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
gedunkman wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
PhiTau74 wrote:














I did not take it as a call to racial profile. The jump from traffic stops to murder stats I will acknowledge was abrupt...but it does bring into the discussion that yes maybe black drivers do more things behind the wheel to warrant being pulled over? Why is it off limits to consider it? Do we really have to just assume and accept it is because of widespread systemic racism? Sorry I don't blindly accept things like that and neither should you.



So, you are going with black drivers "do more things behind the wheel to warrant being pulled over?" Well, many of us finally agree with you here!!!!! What they are doing is driving while black!
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 11:09:09 AM 
There are some cops or even police departments that go out of their way to cause situations. I worked with someone from Grove City who told me that their cops would drive close behind teenagers (regardless of color) at night just to get them nervous and cause them to do something stupid so they could pull them over. I don't know if it was a quota thing, a game they play or what, but its not fair to the kids at all and certainly does nothing to enforce the law.

I have noticed, though, that cops -- especially white cops -- tend to talk differently to black people than they do people of other races. With most people they politely use "sir" and "ma'am" but with black people the tone is usually harsher and sometimes they use profanity. If you listen to the George Floyd recordings, the cop who first confronts him while he's sitting in the car doesn't try to allay his fears that he was going to die, but instead speaks harshly and uses profanity. I'm guessing that when cops confront black people at a traffic stop or elsewhere, their anxiety level goes up. It would be an interesting project to monitor cops' heart rate and blood pressure during various situations.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 11:23:48 AM 
Pataskala wrote:
There are some cops or even police departments that go out of their way to cause situations. I worked with someone from Grove City who told me that their cops would drive close behind teenagers (regardless of color) at night just to get them nervous and cause them to do something stupid so they could pull them over. I don't know if it was a quota thing, a game they play or what, but its not fair to the kids at all and certainly does nothing to enforce the law.

I have noticed, though, that cops -- especially white cops -- tend to talk differently to black people than they do people of other races. With most people they politely use "sir" and "ma'am" but with black people the tone is usually harsher and sometimes they use profanity. If you listen to the George Floyd recordings, the cop who first confronts him while he's sitting in the car doesn't try to allay his fears that he was going to die, but instead speaks harshly and uses profanity. I'm guessing that when cops confront black people at a traffic stop or elsewhere, their anxiety level goes up. It would be an interesting project to monitor cops' heart rate and blood pressure during various situations.


Driving while young is also a reason to be pulled over many time.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 11:30:31 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:


You're really going to double down? Your initial response clearly showed you did not understand the numbers being cited and point being made. Now you're saying you knew all along but were just not wanting 41 million lumped into the small subset? I don't buy it. This is basic data analysis, comparing the % makeup of a population to the % makeup of a particular dataset (in this case murders). Literally no one would take that as lumping the entire race as murderers. Come on.


Respectfully, you're wrong. I didn't explain my point well, but I didn't misunderstand the numbers. What I said was interpreted wrong, I explained that I wasn't clear, and re-stated the point. But I haven't changed the point and I didn't misinterpret the numbers. I pointed out how completely pointless the statistic cited is.

Here's my original post:

Quote:


There were 4,078 black people arrested for murder in 2019.

Not 41.6 million. Which is what the number would be if "13% of the population" was really committing murders. Rather, a small subset of 41.6 million people committed murders.


Here's what you asked:

Andrew Ruck wrote:

Now you're saying you knew all along but were just not wanting 41 million lumped into the small subset? I don't buy it.


I literally used the phrase "Rather, a small subset of 41.6 million people committed murders." And your critique is that you don't think I was saying that a small subset of people committed the murders.

So, respectfully, I don't think you're paying very close attention to what I'm actually saying.

And again, the statistic about 13% of the population committing 52% of the murders is completely pointless. Maybe it's "basic data analysis" but the data analysis is so basic that it tells us literally nothing about the data being analyzed. Your own non-sensical conclusions about said data illustrate my point quite clearly.

To restate my point for the third time, the statement "52% of murders are committed by 13% of people" means nothing. It's a useless stat. It conflates a very small group of people (black people who commit murders -- maybe 10,000 people?) with a very large group of people (41 million) who do not. That's not a useful thing to do. And in the context of a conversation about racial profiling, it's a pretty problematic thing to do, too.

I said that the first time. I said it the second time. I'm saying it again now.

Andrew Ruck wrote:

I did not take it as a call to racial profile.


Cool. Explain the point to me then? An out of the blue statement about the murder rate broken out by race. In a conversation about whether or not police make traffic stops in black neighborhoods too frequently.


Andrew Ruck wrote:

The jump from traffic stops to murder stats I will acknowledge was abrupt...but it does bring into the discussion that yes maybe black drivers do more things behind the wheel to warrant being pulled over? Why is it off limits to consider it? Do we really have to just assume and accept it is because of widespread systemic racism? Sorry I don't blindly accept things like that and neither should you.


Sorry, what? The point about the murder rate "brings into the discussion that black folks might be worse drivers?" I'm not following. I'm open to considering things, but you're going to have to explain to me how the two are related even a little bit. How does it do that?

I think, my man, you might accidentally be arguing the opposite point you think you are. At the very least, you're illustrating how stupid people can be about interpreting data and what it means. A pointless stat about how 10,000 people in a sample of 41 million commit violent crimes is being used to draw conclusions about. . .driving ability. And you're lecturing others about data analysis?







Last Edited: 9/26/2022 12:05:19 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 12:22:12 PM 
PhiTau made the point that black people commit murders and robberies at significantly higher rates as well. The point seemed obvious to me...if they commit those crimes at much higher rates, maybe they also commit traffic violations at higher rates...thereby answering the original question...why do black drivers get pulled over at a higher rate.

I hate to oversimplify it or skip over BA's most prolific non-sports poster's deep dive there...but it all seems pretty straight forward to me.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 12:29:04 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
PhiTau made the point that black people commit murders and robberies at significantly higher rates as well. The point seemed obvious to me...if they commit those crimes at much higher rates, maybe they also commit traffic violations at higher rates...thereby answering the original question...why do black drivers get pulled over at a higher rate.

I hate to oversimplify it or skip over BA's most prolific non-sports poster's deep dive there...but it all seems pretty straight forward to me.


You're oversimplifying because even a slight analysis of your point illustrates how dumb it is.

Is what it is. I'd bow out of this were I you, too. And I get why you're trying to make this about me and not the actual points made.

Last Edited: 9/26/2022 12:36:46 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 12:45:25 PM 
https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/12/st-paul-data-shows-... /

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanf...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-drivers-receive...

https://sc.edu/uofsc/posts/2020/06/racial_disparities_tra...


Yep, only answer is that blacks must be bad drivers!
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 1:24:34 PM 
I'm not making it about you...it was a little jab at how I always find you here but seemingly never on the actual sports discussions.

And I'm not bowing out either, I addressed it. The Stanford study BTC pointed to is very large scale and seems to do a good job of adjusting for various demographics, and concluded black individuals were about 20% more likely to be pulled over. Yes, I am willing to consider that is a result of behavior to some extent. I'm also willing to consider it is a result of some racial profiling. I'm not wiling to blindly accept either. Looking at racial disparity in other crime rates did not seem like an unreasonable point in this discussion.

I'm not really sure what more you want from me.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 1:54:39 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
I'm not making it about you...it was a little jab at how I always find you here but seemingly never on the actual sports discussions.

And I'm not bowing out either, I addressed it. The Stanford study BTC pointed to is very large scale and seems to do a good job of adjusting for various demographics, and concluded black individuals were about 20% more likely to be pulled over. Yes, I am willing to consider that is a result of behavior to some extent. I'm also willing to consider it is a result of some racial profiling. I'm not wiling to blindly accept either. Looking at racial disparity in other crime rates did not seem like an unreasonable point in this discussion.

I'm not really sure what more you want from me.


This was a sports discussion. But sometimes sports, which take place in the world, don't neatly fit into a little box and issues from the outside world end up relevant to the discussion.

I find those things more interesting than I find, say, the 276th TOS to [enter school] joke.

As for "what I want from you", I was hoping to have a discussion about the topic we're discussing on a message board where topics are discussed. And then you came into this thread like an a*shole, didn't read what I wrote clearly, incredulously lectured me about doubling down, and did so in support of an interpretation that you're already backing down from. So I defended my view. With receipts and quotes.

And at no point did I ask you to "blindly accept racial profiling." I pointed out how useless the statistic provided was in response to the conversation. It remains useless. If I said that 61% of the population is responsible for 80% of sexual assaults, would you draw conclusions about the incident of tax fraud amongst that population? Of course not. It's a silly connection to draw.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/26/2022 6:24:04 PM 
You can replace "black" with "poor" in almost all of the statistical numbers presented in this thread and the same is true, Poor people commit a higher rate of crime and murder. Poor people get pulled over for traffic violations at a higher rate (often because they can't afford to fix minor repairs like brake lights). Poor people are easy pickings for the police and also often result in higher fines being paid because they fall behind in payment and therefore have added penalties to the total (or worse get thrown in jail for non-payment). They also do not retain a lawyer but defer to public defenders or just the mercy of the court (for traffic violations).

Need to fill the coffers of the PD - head to the poor side of town.

Last Edited: 9/26/2022 6:24:49 PM by cc-cat

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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Emoni Bates arrested on gun charges
   Posted: 9/27/2022 10:11:13 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
You can replace "black" with "poor" in almost all of the statistical numbers presented in this thread and the same is true, Poor people commit a higher rate of crime and murder. Poor people get pulled over for traffic violations at a higher rate (often because they can't afford to fix minor repairs like brake lights). Poor people are easy pickings for the police and also often result in higher fines being paid because they fall behind in payment and therefore have added penalties to the total (or worse get thrown in jail for non-payment). They also do not retain a lawyer but defer to public defenders or just the mercy of the court (for traffic violations).

Need to fill the coffers of the PD - head to the poor side of town.


Yep


RS Bobcat

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