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Topic:  Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025

Topic:  Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/16/2024 1:09:54 PM 
https://pge.post-gazette.com/.pf/showstory/202406100087/3

Coming to a school near you. Pittsburgh Technical Institute is closing and Eastern Gateway CC in Steubenville is closing.

Last Edited: 6/16/2024 1:10:26 PM by giacomo

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Kinggeorge4
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 7:37:52 AM 
Ohio is loaded with schools, most knew some would close over the next few years.


GO BOBCATS
GEORGE

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 10:12:51 AM 
giacomo wrote:
https://pge.post-gazette.com/.pf/showstory/202406100087/3

Coming to a school near you. Pittsburgh Technical Institute is closing and Eastern Gateway CC in Steubenville is closing.


Both of these closings have much more to do with mismanagement of the institutions and misappropriation of funds versus an enrollment cliff.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 10:34:23 AM 
It is absolutely hysterical that article boils down the declining birth rate to one single short term and fairly minor recession. Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 11:27:16 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
It is absolutely hysterical that article boils down the declining birth rate to one single short term and fairly minor recession. Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


The family value of having more babies than you want or should because "God said so"?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 11:33:08 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
It is absolutely hysterical that article boils down the declining birth rate to one single short term and fairly minor recession. Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


The family value of having more babies than you want or should because "God said so"?


Or the state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honour_of_the_Germ...
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 11:42:13 AM 
"Get in the kitchen woman and make me a sandwich, and then make me a baby"


"Screw you Harrison"
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 11:47:09 AM 
The trend has been that more women than men are getting college degrees. They are delaying having children and having less or none at all and focusing on their career and freedom.This is catching up to the enrollment issue. Immigration anyone?
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 2:45:05 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

The family value of having more babies than you want or should because "God said so"?



A year from now this might be a religious theocracy with birth control outlawed.

No, this not a joke, it's a warning.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-republic...

BTW...In 2022, Ohio lawmakers introduced a bill that could have effectively banned common forms of birth control, including IUDs. They failed, but this does not mean they are finished trying.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- State Rep. Jean Schmidt, a Clermont County Republican called a pregnancy caused by rape an “opportunity” for women.
{Published: Jul. 01, 2022, 11:15 a.m.}
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/17/2024 9:56:28 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


Correct, it does not.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 7:05:13 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
It is absolutely hysterical that article boils down the declining birth rate to one single short term and fairly minor recession. Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


The family value of having more babies than you want or should because "God said so"?


I'm not surprised you act like you know anything about biblical family values and completely miss the mark. Family values produce a sense of identity and purpose, leading to decisions made in joy and certainty not obligation. They are passed on from generation to generation for good reason. A culture that rejects that and thinks it can blaze it's own trail will absolutely have negative consequences.

But yeah, go with the theory that people stopped having babies for the last 15 years because the stock market wasn't good for a few months in 2008.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 7:10:43 AM 
JSF wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


Correct, it does not.


I would love to hear your theories, unless you also think it is as simple as the 08 recession. Of course, I wouldn't boil it down to one single thing either. But some algebra is at play here...

Judeo-Christian families birth rate significantly higher than secular birth rates.
Judeo-Christian identity/membership/participation significantly decreased in the last 25 years.

Therefore....


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 7:33:14 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
It is absolutely hysterical that article boils down the declining birth rate to one single short term and fairly minor recession. Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


The family value of having more babies than you want or should because "God said so"?


I'm not surprised you act like you know anything about biblical family values and completely miss the mark. Family values produce a sense of identity and purpose, leading to decisions made in joy and certainty not obligation. They are passed on from generation to generation for good reason. A culture that rejects that and thinks it can blaze it's own trail will absolutely have negative consequences.

But yeah, go with the theory that people stopped having babies for the last 15 years because the stock market wasn't good for a few months in 2008.


You know nothing of what I know and don't know, Mr. Butker. I didn't say I agreed about the stock market theory.

"Family values produce a sense of identity and purpose, leading to decisions made in joy and certainty not obligation."

Hmmm...I'm going to need you to quantify this somehow. Saying that this is due to religion or God or somehow means it's wrong to not have ALL THE BABIES ALL THE TIME is completely absurd. You do you, but don't tell me what I get out of my family is somehow less because we don't share the same belief system. And on top of that, you are also assuming that the more religious among us don't stress or certainly face tough decisions about their family planning. I know Atheists with more kids and I know devout families with fewer. It's a personal decision. "familyvalues" is a political buzzword. As meaningless as "decent hardworking Americans" around election time.

Last Edited: 6/18/2024 8:05:29 AM by Deciduous Forest Cat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 8:00:27 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
JSF wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


Correct, it does not.


I would love to hear your theories, unless you also think it is as simple as the 08 recession. Of course, I wouldn't boil it down to one single thing either. But some algebra is at play here...

Judeo-Christian families birth rate significantly higher than secular birth rates.
Judeo-Christian identity/membership/participation significantly decreased in the last 25 years.

Therefore....


A few questions:

1. Did declines in the birth rate previously correspond with a decline in judeo-christian membership? For instance, was judeo-christian membership declining at the same rate as the birth rate between 1957 and 1969? That's when it saw it's single largest drop in US history.

2. The teen birth rate is down substantially. Is that related to judeo-christian membership?

3. Parents now spend 1175% more on the cost of education and 155% more on healthcare than they did in 1960. The cost of daycare has increased 175% since 1990. Overall, the cost of having a child has increased dramatically in the last 20 years. With it, the average age at which women have children has increased -- which makes it more difficult to conceive. Any relationship between that and judeo-christian values?

4. The rate of violent crime is down massively since 1993. Judeo-christian membership is also down in that time. Did Judeo-Christian values result in violent crimes?
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 8:30:12 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

"familyvalues" is a political buzzword.


Often used by political lightweights like Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin. Also used by politicians who give divorce papers to his wife the day after her cancer operation so he can marry is mistress. Or a criminal conman who was busy screwing porn stars while his 3rd wife was home nursing their newborn infant. Or the one from Florida who was part of a scheme that led to the sex trafficking of a 17-year-old girl. Or the famous church "college" in Virginia guy and his wife and the pool boy and the seven year long sex scandal. Or the the co-founder of "Moms for Liberty" the ultra-maga-conservative outfit that is proudly anti-LGBTQ under scrutiny for sexual abuse of a group sex partner she and her husband had been gang banging.

Tip of the iceberg.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 9:29:31 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
It is absolutely hysterical that article boils down the declining birth rate to one single short term and fairly minor recession. Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


A set of universal family values does not exist. The far right would like you to believe that there is some sort of nebulous virtues that exist in a jar on the shelf that you can just take down and eat with your bowl of morning oatmeal. Different strokes for different folks. Yes, butts in pews are down and one of the significant reasons is youth sports. How many of us have attended the game of a child or grandchild at the same time the offering plate was being passed just down the street.

I'm as big a sentimentalist as about anyone but we're not going back to the days of 485 Mapelton Drive or 211 Pine Street and I'm not sure that most of the women of today's world would want that and certainly not most non-white citizens of this country.

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 12:38:59 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

"Family values produce a sense of identity and purpose, leading to decisions made in joy and certainty not obligation."

Hmmm...I'm going to need you to quantify this somehow. Saying that this is due to religion or God or somehow means it's wrong to not have ALL THE BABIES ALL THE TIME is completely absurd. You do you, but don't tell me what I get out of my family is somehow less because we don't share the same belief system. And on top of that, you are also assuming that the more religious among us don't stress or certainly face tough decisions about their family planning. I know Atheists with more kids and I know devout families with fewer. It's a personal decision. "familyvalues" is a political buzzword. As meaningless as "decent hardworking Americans" around election time.


What a staggering amount of reaches and mischaracterizations in just one paragraph. I literally said I would not boil it down to one factor. I never said anything of the sort that it is WRONG to not have all the babies. I never told you what you get out of your family is less, nor did I say you don't stress over family planning. Like not even a little bit. Your distaste of Christians is so strong you seem incapable of even having a legitimate conversation on any topic related to Christianity.

You talk in anecdotes of families you know, but this is a discussion on nationwide large scale statistics. Religious people get married and have more kids than non-religious people, fact check true.

Family values can have a lot of meanings, for sure, including a political buzzword. My usage here was about the literal value and importance placed on family. It has been diminished if not attacked for years. It is obvious in the culture, you bring up Butker and I hate to set you off on another tirade but the reaction to his speech is a perfect example of my point. The suggestion that women will find their greatest purpose in being a Mom would not have been a controversial statement 20 years ago, certainly not when being said to a devout catholic college that proclaims it in their daily teachings.

Just the suggestion to find true purpose and identity in the family gets you vilified. I do believe that in a macro-sense, people should seek to procreate as it will lead to a purpose and identity that they simply can not find anywhere else. Billions of people have found this to be true over the course of humanity, and have passed this learned wisdom on to future generations. That mainstay has been greatly halted in recent years and replaced with an entirely different message of individual fulfilment. I am 100% certain this has played a huge part in the declining birth rate.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 12:55:20 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

A few questions:

1. Did declines in the birth rate previously correspond with a decline in judeo-christian membership? For instance, was judeo-christian membership declining at the same rate as the birth rate between 1957 and 1969? That's when it saw it's single largest drop in US history.

2. The teen birth rate is down substantially. Is that related to judeo-christian membership?

3. Parents now spend 1175% more on the cost of education and 155% more on healthcare than they did in 1960. The cost of daycare has increased 175% since 1990. Overall, the cost of having a child has increased dramatically in the last 20 years. With it, the average age at which women have children has increased -- which makes it more difficult to conceive. Any relationship between that and judeo-christian values?

4. The rate of violent crime is down massively since 1993. Judeo-christian membership is also down in that time. Did Judeo-Christian values result in violent crimes?


Nice to see you BLSS, right on time. I see you're doing your correlation does not equal correlation bit again. Many times a very true argument to be made. This one is a literal math equation as I said. You do not deny the 2 statements I made, correct? Taken together, it equals a lower birth rate. It has to. It is math.

Your #2 & #4 are not the same type of math problem, but you did do a good job of seizing the opportunity to hint less Christians means more morality. #3 yeah probably some level of correlation. I will state for a 3rd time I would not boil it down to one thing.

As for #1, I mean come on...do I really need to state the obvious? We have a literal generation named for it - Baby Boomers. The decade following the war saw massive birth rates. Pent up demand followed by a to-be-expected slowing.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 1:06:43 PM 
Working thru my list of angry replies.

Greencat - Just weird. Good job highlighting bad Christians, I bet that felt good. Should I highlight bad secular people too now? No I'll just say biblical Christians explicitly profess sin in ALL people including Christians and that we live in a fallen world. Yet anti-Christians expect perfect morality from us. Also I think I better understand your deep hatred of Belmont University now.

Swank - Of course a universal set does not exist. As I said in another reply, I was focusing more on the literal value placed on family. Not really sure where you are going with the rest of your comments. I agree we aren't going back to older times, but I still maintain if we don't appreciate the value in raising a family we won't be going anywhere. What better way to understand the importance of something in our lives than the continuation of the human race depending on it?


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 3:31:35 PM 
My dislike of Belmont goes back way before their stunt like buying an art college (well known to be LGBTQ-centric) to add on with and then firing them all. They had a long history of discrimination against non-xtians that has only recently changed or started to. Now they might even CONSIDER hiring Jewish law professors for their upstart law school.

No, you don't have a clue about all the reasons I don't admire Belmont but maybe you can better understand my distaste for Hillsdale, so-called Liberty, etc.

But thanks for asking, Mrs Netanyahu.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 4:13:00 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:

Nice to see you BLSS, right on time. I see you're doing your correlation does not equal correlation bit again. Many times a very true argument to be made. This one is a literal math equation as I said. You do not deny the 2 statements I made, correct? Taken together, it equals a lower birth rate. It has to. It is math.


I don't remember ever interacting with you. When did we talk about correlation not equaling causation?

To be clear, I think what people are pointing out is that you're not actually making a coherent point here. You got out over your skis with your outrage over the article referencing one valid explanation for birth rate decline because it didn't mention the reason you want to talk about.

And then you immediately tried to walk it back by saying "of course it's multiple causes" and call other people's responses angry, when you're the one who actually got upset. You didn't say anything at all about multiple causes in your first post, you just got on political horse and a bunch of people called you on it.

And now you're stradding this weird like and trying to act like everybody here is saying things they are not. Literally every response here -- except your initial post -- is pointing out the many, varied causes of the birthrate decline.

And you're simultaneously going "there's many causes" and trying to debate anybody who points out causes that aren't your particular pet cause.


Andrew Ruck wrote:

Your #2 & #4 are not the same type of math problem, but you did do a good job of seizing the opportunity to hint less Christians means more morality. #3 yeah probably some level of correlation. I will state for a 3rd time I would not boil it down to one thing.


I wasn't hinting that at all. I was pointing out additional causes of birth rate decline and suggesting that sometimes fewer childred actually aligns perfectly well with "family values."

Andrew Ruck wrote:

As for #1, I mean come on...do I really need to state the obvious? We have a literal generation named for it - Baby Boomers. The decade following the war saw massive birth rates. Pent up demand followed by a to-be-expected slowing.


Also, birth control. And my point was one that you don't disagree with -- there are many factors that contribute to population decline. Cost, recessions, birth control, immigration, and on and on.

But what, exactly, is your point? There's many causes, but some dude at the Pittsburgh Post Gazette and everybody here should only talk about the one you care most about?
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 4:32:20 PM 
Some people are followers of Charlie Kirk and other conspiracy theory reactionary crappola about birth rates. But Kirk and his "Turning Point" and other white xtian supremacists are not new, just a pretend respectable face on the old ugly face worn by bigots for a long long time. Domestic terrorist Eric Rudolph used to tell people in Nashville before he got famous for acting on his domestic terrorist urges that "abortion was hurting the white birth rates" and this is why he was against Bill Clinton becoming president, Clinton being pro-choice and that otherwise he would have supported a person from the south. His words, heard by me from his mouth in the lobby of a music store.

So whether it is the regular garden variety conservative bigots or the violent domestic terrorist ones, it's the WHITE birth rates they are in a tizzy about and none other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_t...

Last Edited: 6/19/2024 7:30:27 AM by greencat

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 11:14:16 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Working thru my list of angry replies.

Greencat - Just weird. Good job highlighting bad Christians, I bet that felt good. Should I highlight bad secular people too now? No I'll just say biblical Christians explicitly profess sin in ALL people including Christians and that we live in a fallen world. Yet anti-Christians expect perfect morality from us. Also I think I better understand your deep hatred of Belmont University now.

Swank - Of course a universal set does not exist. As I said in another reply, I was focusing more on the literal value placed on family. Not really sure where you are going with the rest of your comments. I agree we aren't going back to older times, but I still maintain if we don't appreciate the value in raising a family we won't be going anywhere. What better way to understand the importance of something in our lives than the continuation of the human race depending on it?


I wholeheartedly agree with the value of raising a family but it's not the only adult life choice.That clown at to$u who gave the graduation address is a perfect example of an out of touch person. A family can simply be a couple who are married and are committed to each other. It doesn't require children. Whether you intended to or not, that's how your original post came across.

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/18/2024 11:39:06 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
JSF wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Surely it has nothing to do with the decline of religion and overall family values.


Correct, it does not.


I would love to hear your theories, unless you also think it is as simple as the 08 recession. Of course, I wouldn't boil it down to one single thing either. But some algebra is at play here...

Judeo-Christian families birth rate significantly higher than secular birth rates.
Judeo-Christian identity/membership/participation significantly decreased in the last 25 years.

Therefore....


Therefore correlation doesn't equal causation. I will boil it down to one thing: Money. Kids cost a lot of it, Millennials have less of it and a whole lot of anxiety about it. Money is probably the #3 reason I am childless.

I'm going to add a hard disagree to the assertion the value or importance of a family has been under attack or diminished to any noticeable degree.

Last Edited: 6/18/2024 11:51:14 PM by JSF


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Colleges Face Enrollment Cliff in 2025
   Posted: 6/19/2024 12:42:37 PM 
BLSS - I walk nothing back. I found them referencing only the recession laughable, and I think declining religion is far and away the #1 reason for the declining birth rate so I brought it up, knowing we are already in Siberia. Of course it is multiple causes, it goes without saying. Many components are circular causes as well (a factor can result in low birthrate that also result in lower church participation). My argument couldn't be more coherent. It has been true in countless societies and generations...religion creates children at a much higher rate than secularism.

Swank - Clown at OSU? Do you mean Butker at Benedectine College, an explicitly Catholic organization? I continue to see nothing wrong with his comments when considering context and audience. It amazes me the outrage and energy spent over a guy who loves his wife, who loves to be a Mother while we barely even reflect on absent fathers, abusers and so on.

I can proclaim the value in parenthood without attacking those that do not join in it. Especially on a micro-level, I of course acknowledge many reasons why people would choose to not have kids. I enjoy analyzing macro-level factors on a number of topics.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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