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Topic:  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....

Topic:  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/15/2021 12:36:41 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


To be more specific, the actual problem for New Jersey has nothing to do with their gun laws, but with the fact that easily accessible states have very lax gun laws.

An "illegal gun" in New Jersey is often a perfectly legal gun elsewhere; there's little done to control or monitor the secondary market, and as such there's a gigantic secondary market in which guns are purchased legally in states with lax gun laws, effectively laundered through a secondary market sale which takes them "off the grid" and then end up sold in places like New York, Newark, Chicago, etc. turning them into illegal guns.

In the Northeast, Virginia's historically been the starting point for guns used in crimes. In Chicago, it's right next door in Indiana.

The reason there are so many guns is because it's really, really easy to get them in a whole bunch of places. That New Jersey's gun laws are so easily skirted by crossing state lines isn't, in my mind, an argument against the effectiveness of New Jersey's laws, but rather an argument that more states should have similar laws if there's a real, serious desire to address gun violence in the US.



New Jersey's gun laws aren't effective, primarily because only law abiding citizens, like me, follow them.

What you're saying about the availability, especially from certain states, may be 100% true.

But that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of gun crimes in NJ are being committed by people who couldn't care less what the laws are.

I'm sure they don't ask the person they are buying the gun from anything
other the "how much " ?




What you're describing is a secondary effect of effective legislation, and criminals taking advantage of ineffective legislation in neighboring states. The idea that New Jersey's gun laws are ineffective because criminals are able to make illegal purchases on New Jersey property that are only made possible by lax gun laws elsewhere doesn't follow logically.

We need stricter gun laws, licensing, and a system that doesn't make the secondary market such an easily exploitable loophole for criminals. Across the board. But there are some states that are comically behind on this, and their unwillingness to make common-sense changes bleed into places like New Jersey, New York, etc. with more restrictive laws.

Here's what we agree on: Criminals want guns and don't pay attention to gun laws. Where we disagree is that it's a reflection on the effectiveness of New Jersey's legislation that a whole bunch of states make it exceedingly easy for those criminals to access guns regardless.

I'm also curious: by what measure have you decided that New Jersey's gun laws are ineffective? The homicide rate by firearm is lower than the national average, and with the lone exception of Illinois, the states ranking in the top 10 in homicides by firearm per 100,000 employees tend to have quite lax gun laws.


Last Edited: 12/15/2021 12:46:57 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/20/2021 8:58:51 AM 
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/19/entertainment/drakeo-the-r...

Probably not the best of ideas, but the above link adds substance to Greencats' argument.

Always get a kick out of stage names of hip-hop artists or how seemingly every song is recorded by one artist and features another artist. Never recall a 1970 song by Jackson Browne featuring Elton John.

Last Edited: 12/20/2021 2:39:58 PM by bobcatsquared

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/20/2021 1:29:05 PM 
I saw that on CBS morning news this a.m.

On the other hand, I was watching a documentary about CCR last night and knew those guys didn't get along but I don't recall them shooting or stabbing John Fogerty.

Then again, these lyrics are from the late "Drakeo The Ruler" and not CCR...

When you see me in the club, n-ggas know I'm Money Mitch-ing
Wrist breaker in the club, it cost me a pretty penny
Actin' like they want to get me, n-ggas playin' like they with it
Shoot it with a p-ssy n-gga, hope he find another kidney

----------------------------------------------

Elton John did do a duet with Kinky Dee or whatever her name was.

Last Edited: 12/20/2021 1:30:37 PM by greencat

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/20/2021 7:48:03 PM 
greencat wrote:
I saw that on CBS morning news this a.m.

On the other hand, I was watching a documentary about CCR last night and knew those guys didn't get along but I don't recall them shooting or stabbing John Fogerty.

Then again, these lyrics are from the late "Drakeo The Ruler" and not CCR...

When you see me in the club, n-ggas know I'm Money Mitch-ing
Wrist breaker in the club, it cost me a pretty penny
Actin' like they want to get me, n-ggas playin' like they with it
Shoot it with a p-ssy n-gga, hope he find another kidney

----------------------------------------------

Elton John did do a duet with Kinky Dee or whatever her name was.


****UPDATE****

No arrests had been made as of Sunday, when L.A. Police Department spokesman Luis Garcia said that “detectives are still trying to figure things out,” according to the Los Angeles Times.

Still trying to (cough-cough) "figure things out" - ??

Here's a clue. Drakeo the Ruler's death comes amid a string of killings of prominent rappers in the past few years, ABC News reported. Rappers Nipsey Hussle, Pop Smoke, XXXTentacion, King Von, FBG Duck, Mo3 and Slim 400 have all been victims of gun violence. Memphis-based rapper Young Dolph was shot and killed outside a bakery last month, ABC News noted.

-------------------------------------

But-but-but-but.... it's no different than when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan.

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/20/2021 10:23:56 PM 
You're just embarrassing yourself at this point. Please continue; it's enjoyable.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/20/2021 11:09:35 PM 
No, actually any of you people who tried to defend the toxic garbage known as hardcore rap or gangsta rap that have all now been blown out of the water on that point are the ones that have been embarrassed as well you should be.

Enjoy your toxic garbage gangsta rappers before they are all kill each other.

I will absolutely continue and if it makes you miserable, all the better.

Last Edited: 12/20/2021 11:12:14 PM by greencat

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 8:37:03 AM 
greencat wrote:
No, actually any of you people who tried to defend the toxic garbage known as hardcore rap or gangsta rap that have all now been blown out of the water on that point are the ones that have been embarrassed as well you should be.

Enjoy your toxic garbage gangsta rappers before they are all kill each other.

I will absolutely continue and if it makes you miserable, all the better.


Please keep yelling at clouds dude, I’d rather that to you trying to sell snake oil on other threads. (Speaking specifically of the likely worthless nutritional supplement you were trying to guilt people into buying a few days ago)
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 9:53:22 AM 
As of yesterday: 830,990 covid deaths in the U.S.

I was not one of them. Inexpensive immunity support vitamins are something I'll continue to "take my chances with" especially since they prevent a number of other unpleasant outcomes.

For those NOT in the Qanon death cult of anti-science... antioxidents help ward off multiple illnesses, including diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. They also, protect the brain from oxidative damage, preventing premature aging and memory-impairing dementia. Instead of fox "news" I prefer to get medical info from sources like Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins.

However, for those in the Qanon death cult of anti-science...I happen to have some ivermectin right here in the cabinet for you. It's under the brand name "Tri-Heart Plus" which I give my dog once a month as heartworm preventative. It's on sale today too.

https://www.chewy.com/tri-heart-plus-chewable-tablet-dogs...

Last Edited: 12/22/2021 9:59:45 AM by greencat

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 10:24:45 AM 
Here's an interesting fact for the day.

A 2015 study concluded that murder was the cause of 51.5% of American rappers deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_hip_hop_mu...
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 11:25:19 AM 
greencat wrote:
As of yesterday: 830,990 covid deaths in the U.S.

I was not one of them. Inexpensive immunity support vitamins are something I'll continue to "take my chances with" especially since they prevent a number of other unpleasant outcomes.

For those NOT in the Qanon death cult of anti-science... antioxidents help ward off multiple illnesses, including diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. They also, protect the brain from oxidative damage, preventing premature aging and memory-impairing dementia. Instead of fox "news" I prefer to get medical info from sources like Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins.

However, for those in the Qanon death cult of anti-science...I happen to have some ivermectin right here in the cabinet for you. It's under the brand name "Tri-Heart Plus" which I give my dog once a month as heartworm preventative. It's on sale today too.

https://www.chewy.com/tri-heart-plus-chewable-tablet-dogs...


Listen here whackjob, I’m not saying to take ivermectin. You and everyone else should absolutely get their COVID vaccine series + booster shot (i got my booster in October). But to say the nutritional supplements you’re shilling are anything but snake oil is a joke.

Antioxidants are good for you, and no matter how many of those little candies you take, they’re not doing anything to increase antioxidants in your body. What’s the oral bioavailability on the antioxidants in your little candies? (i.e. what sort of dose are you ingesting, how much is absorbed by your gut, and how much of it actually reaches any relevant tissue before meting metabolized?) Heck, what antioxidants are you even allegedly taking? Are there magical beams mixed in too? (Please note: magical beans are roughly as effective at impacting human health as are the great majority of grocery store nutritional supplements). What clinical trials can you cite to defend your product? Not antioxidants in general, but to support this specific product formulation?

Im sure there are also lots of as vitamins contained in the snake oil pills you’re selling, but that doesn’t mean they have a meaningful impact on immune function unless you’re not getting those vitamins from dietary sources

Look at the gummy bears you’re selling, does the package contain the phrase “these statements have not been assessed by the FDA”, or anything to that effect? Of the two of us, the one arguing that nutritional gummies are going to project you from COVID and diabetes and dementia (i think that ship might have already sailed) is the one shilling BS cures.

The nutritional supplements you’re marketing aren’t likely to hurt anyone, but unless you’re severely malnourished they aren’t doing anything except giving you slightly more expensive urine.

Source: my doctorate in immunology and over 15 years of biomedical research experience (as opposed to your years spent yelling at clouds)
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 1:11:39 PM 
For the record, I got the Pfizer vaccinations in April/May and Booster in November.

From the US National Library of Medicine/National Institutes of Health:

The underlying cause of cancer is thought to be damage to DNA, much of which is oxidative in nature. These oxidative processes, the mechanisms of which not fully understood, occur during the promotional stage of carcinogenesis. Therefore, it is plausible that antioxidants may be able to interfere with the metabolic activation of chemical carcinogens, cause regression of pre-malignant lesions or inhibit their development into cancer.

---------------------------------------------
PLUS: Last medically reviewed on October 11, 2020

Scientific research suggests that supplementing with vitamin D may protect against respiratory infections, especially among those who are deficient in the vitamin.

Recent research indicates that sufficient vitamin D levels may help people with COVID-19 avoid adverse outcomes.

---------------------------------------------

From a variety of respected medical websites:

Because COVID-19 comes with cold and flu-like symptoms, Vitamins B, C and D, as well as zinc may be helpful in boosting your immune system and fighting the illness in the same way they can help you get over a cold or flu.

Vitamin C
Generally, vitamin C can help you fight a cold faster or ease your cold symptoms if you were taking it prior to getting sick. As an antioxidant, vitamin C can help reduce inflammation—and lung inflammation is a severe symptom of COVID-19, which can lead to respiratory distress or even death. So if you’re still healthy, it doesn’t hurt to start taking vitamin C now.

Popping a zinc throat lozenge, or taking an over-the-counter cold remedy with zinc in it (as a syrup or tablet) helps shorten the length of rhinovirus colds. Zinc also helps symptoms—nasal congestion, nasal drainage, sore throat, and cough—resolve sooner.

Zinc has also been found to help produce and activate T-cells (t-lymphocytes), which trigger the body to respond to infections, according to the NIH. Full of antiviral and anti-inflammatory properties, elderberry syrup is used as a remedy for colds, flus, and bacterial sinus infections. Elderberry works by reducing swelling in the mucus membranes.

Some studies suggest elderberry extract reduces the duration of the flu, which is why some believe it may also help your immune system against coronavirus (COVID-19) infection.

Echinacea has been used to treat colds symptoms upon first signs of illness, but the research on its effectiveness varies. Some research shows that taking echinacea can reduce the risk of catching a cold by 45% to 58%.

Ginseng is a root with potent antioxidant effects that contributes to reduced inflammation, supported immunity, and other health benefits. Multiple studies have shown ginseng’s positive effects on the common cold and respiratory tract infections. In a systematic review looking at multitude studies, researchers concluded that ginseng extract reduced the duration of the common cold. The same results were replicated in a double-blind randomized control trial where subjects were given ginseng extract over a period of four months. Of particular relevance, ginseng reduced the risk and duration of respiratory symptoms in an elderly population by 48 and 55%, respectively. Takeaway: Ginseng could be especially helpful for the elderly. It's most effective when taken within a two-hour window of a meal. Aim for 2,000mg of ginseng extract daily.

****************************************

I usually order from Puritans Pride or Swanson. One of the more obscure supplements I like is celery seed extract. Celery seeds are nutrient dense and particularly rich in calcium, manganese, and iron. They’re low in calories and provide relatively equal amounts of carbs, protein, and fat. Celery seeds are a great source of iron for both men and women. One tablespoon (6.5 grams) of celery seeds provides 17% and 38% of the RDIs for women and men, respectively. Maintaining healthy blood sugar levels is important for reducing your risk of type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Celery seeds are a great source of magnesium, with one tablespoon (6.5 grams) providing 12% of the RDI. In a study published by the NIH, athletes who supplemented with magnesium for four weeks had faster running, cycling and swimming times during a triathlon. They also experienced reductions in insulin and stress hormone levels.

BTW... my doctor knows I take lots of supplements and doesn't discourage it at all. As a matter of fact, my a1c is usually 5.4, all other levels in the normal range, blood pressure normal... I will stick with what is working.

Last Edited: 12/22/2021 1:28:56 PM by greencat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 2:51:00 PM 
I personally believe that it's Vitamin D that's killing rappers, not each other.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 5:46:03 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
Are there magical beams mixed in too?


Does Jim Beam count?


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/22/2021 5:58:22 PM 
Jim Beam, just in time for NYE?

THIS might be the new product line he balked at.

https://www.naturesbounty.com/our-products/jelly-beans/im... /

This is NOT what I take. My supplements are for adults. That's kid stuff.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/24/2021 5:47:59 PM 
greencat wrote:
For the record, I got the Pfizer vaccinations in April/May and Booster in November.

From the US National Library of Medicine/National Institutes of Health:

The underlying cause of cancer is thought to be damage to DNA, much of which is oxidative in nature. These oxidative processes, the mechanisms of which not fully understood, occur during the promotional stage of carcinogenesis. Therefore, it is plausible that antioxidants may be able to interfere with the metabolic activation of chemical carcinogens, cause regression of pre-malignant lesions or inhibit their development into cancer.

---------------------------------------------
PLUS: Last medically reviewed on October 11, 2020

Scientific research suggests that supplementing with vitamin D may protect against respiratory infections, especially among those who are deficient in the vitamin.

Recent research indicates that sufficient vitamin D levels may help people with COVID-19 avoid adverse outcomes.

---------------------------------------------

From a variety of respected medical websites:

Because COVID-19 comes with cold and flu-like symptoms, Vitamins B, C and D, as well as zinc may be helpful in boosting your immune system and fighting the illness in the same way they can help you get over a cold or flu.

Vitamin C
Generally, vitamin C can help you fight a cold faster or ease your cold symptoms if you were taking it prior to getting sick. As an antioxidant, vitamin C can help reduce inflammation—and lung inflammation is a severe symptom of COVID-19, which can lead to respiratory distress or even death. So if you’re still healthy, it doesn’t hurt to start taking vitamin C now.

Popping a zinc throat lozenge, or taking an over-the-counter cold remedy with zinc in it (as a syrup or tablet) helps shorten the length of rhinovirus colds. Zinc also helps symptoms—nasal congestion, nasal drainage, sore throat, and cough—resolve sooner.

Zinc has also been found to help produce and activate T-cells (t-lymphocytes), which trigger the body to respond to infections, according to the NIH. Full of antiviral and anti-inflammatory properties, elderberry syrup is used as a remedy for colds, flus, and bacterial sinus infections. Elderberry works by reducing swelling in the mucus membranes.

Some studies suggest elderberry extract reduces the duration of the flu, which is why some believe it may also help your immune system against coronavirus (COVID-19) infection.

Echinacea has been used to treat colds symptoms upon first signs of illness, but the research on its effectiveness varies. Some research shows that taking echinacea can reduce the risk of catching a cold by 45% to 58%.

Ginseng is a root with potent antioxidant effects that contributes to reduced inflammation, supported immunity, and other health benefits. Multiple studies have shown ginseng’s positive effects on the common cold and respiratory tract infections. In a systematic review looking at multitude studies, researchers concluded that ginseng extract reduced the duration of the common cold. The same results were replicated in a double-blind randomized control trial where subjects were given ginseng extract over a period of four months. Of particular relevance, ginseng reduced the risk and duration of respiratory symptoms in an elderly population by 48 and 55%, respectively. Takeaway: Ginseng could be especially helpful for the elderly. It's most effective when taken within a two-hour window of a meal. Aim for 2,000mg of ginseng extract daily.



So much to unpack here. With it being Christmas time, my interest in arguing with you is rapidly fading, so I’ll get through as much as I can before the interest is completely gone.

I
Above, you cite vitamin B, vitamin C, and vitamin D, zinc, elderberry extract, echinacea, and ginseng root. The nutritional supplement you advocated using on the other thread—and implied here that only “Qanon death cult of anti-science” persons would question taking (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0260/4747/9880/products... ; “Zand Immunity Echinacea Zinc”) does not contain vitamin B, C, or D, doesn’t contain elderberry extract, and doesn’t contain ginseng root (all according to the product packaging found on the manufacturer’s website, https://www.zandimmunity.com/collections/lozenges/product... ). It is listed as containing 5 mg zinc/lozenge. It also says that it contains 66 mg of the following allegedly active ingredients (but does not specify how much each ingredient is present): echinacea, extracts of hibiscus flower, orange peel, lemon peel, rose hips, lemongrass, perilla leaf, and schizonepeta herb.

Since the Zand Immunity Echinacea Zinc supplements do not contain vitamin B, vitamin C, vitamin D, elderberry extract, or ginseng root, I’m not going to be discussing them any further. I’m also not going to be discussing antioxidants and their role in cancer or DNA damage more generally, as that isn’t germane to a discussion of nutritional supplements and COVID-19. Please note that these are all extremely back of the envelop calculations and based on pretty cursory research. (If you’d like more detail, a more in-depth analysis, contact me and we’ll discuss an hourly consulting fee.) In no particular order:

a) Schizonepeta herb – this appears to be an herb used in traditional Chinese medicine. A paper by Kang et al. (PMID 18549677) reported that orally dosing mice with Schizonepeta herb extract at 200 mg/kg/day (a dose that the authors note is relevant to the to the therapeutic oral dose of this compound) appeared to reduce Th1 skewing in favor of Th2 skewing in an in vivo model. Please note that a dose of 200 mg/kg/day would work out to something like 13.5 GRAMS per day in a 150 pound (68 kg) person. The Zand Immunity lozenges referenced above contain something (substantially) less than 66 mg/lozenge, so if the entire herbal component of these lozenges were schizonepeta herb extract, you would need to take >200 lozenges PER DAY to achieve biologically relevant concentrations.
A paper by Geng et al (Fitoterapia Volume 82, Issue 7, October 2011, Pages 1110-1117) suggests that Schizonepeta herb extract is pretty much cleared from one’s system 24 hours after administration (in rats), though taking the lozenge as recommended you might get some steady LOW LOW LOW level of the compound in your system.
Conclusion: Even if this compound could have beneficial activity preventing or resolving a COVID infection, I’m extremely skeptical that you would receive a biologically meaningful quantity of it from the aforementioned supplement.

b) Perilla leaf – appears to be a mint relative used in various traditional medicines. I found a few papers looking at this as a component of traditional Chinese medicine preparations, but specific in vivo tested observations were few and far between. Several sources noted that there isn’t sufficient information to inform doses required to achieve biological effects in vivo. Likewise, information on oral bioavailability and clearance was lacking.
Conclusion: I suspect this was included primarily for flavor or as a soothing cough drop type agent. Conclusion: Even if this compound could have beneficial activity preventing or resolving a COVID infection, I’m extremely skeptical that you would receive a biologically meaningful quantity of it from the aforementioned supplement.

c) Lemongrass – Food, also appears to be a component of various traditional medicines. Reported antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activity. Again, very scant information on what effective dosing would be for this. This is complicated by the lack of a single active agent in lemongrass extract, but this paper (PMID 24799081) suggests an effective in vitro dose on the order of 3.2 ug/mL. Translating that directly to an effective in vivo dose is complicated by a lot of factors, so I’m going to say it is minimum 10-fold higher. That works out to about 30 ug/mL. It’s not the cleanest conversion, but for our purposes here we can consider 30 ug/ml to be equivalent to 30 ug/g, or 30 mg/kg. Another paper (SOJ Pharm Pharm Sci 4(3):1-9.DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.15226/2374-6866/4/3/00160 ) suggests that that might be achievable with an oral dose of ~68 mg/kg (depending on which of the many potential active ingredients we’re talking about), but these also tended to be rapidly cleared. Thus, the actual dose requirements could be significantly higher.
Conclusion: So, same as with the Schizonepeta herb, you might need to take grams/day of this to achieve biologically relevant concentrations. I suspect this was included primarily for flavor or for soothing cough drop type activities. Conclusion: Even if this compound could have beneficial activity preventing or resolving a COVID infection, I’m extremely skeptical that you would receive a biologically meaningful quantity of it from the aforementioned supplement.

d) Orange peel and lemon peel—[Interest in this exercise rapidly fading]....what I’m seeing suggests that biological effects would require, again, many many times the dosage you’d get from the above mentioned nutritional supplement. Probably included for taste, but if included to for “immune support”, unlikely to be present in anything approaching a sufficient dose

e) Zinc – Finally, an easy one. Quoting from the US NIH’s COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines, “The Panel recommends against using zinc supplementation above the recommended dietary allowance for the prevention of COVID-19, except in a clinical trial” (https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/... /). At 5 mg/lozenge, this one might put you into the measurable (possibly even biologically meaningful) range.

f) Echinacea-- https://www.rxlist.com/echinacea/supplements.htm suggests a daily dose of 2400 – 4000 mg/day for prevention of the common cold. That is, clearly, FAR in excess of what would be found lozenges containing 66 mg of various herbs of which echinacea is only a subset (the packaging of these nutritional supplements tell users not to exceed 6 lozenges in 24 hours).

g) Hibiscus flower and Rose hips: I’ve definitely run out of steam and interest at this point, so just color me skeptical.

II
Stepping away from the more detailed scientific analysis, I’d like to direct your attention to a couple of statements on the product packaging.

a) First, their mission statement: “We believe health should be rooted in nature, not the laboratory.” [But questioning the efficacy of this product gets you labeled as anti-science?!]. “Guided by an herb-first ethos….” [an herb first ethos is fine for cooking, but I question its value in medical decisions, science, or immune modulation]

b) (Emphasis mine) “THESE STATEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN EVALUATED BY THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION. THIS PRODUCT IS NOT INTENDED TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, CURE, OR PREVENT ANY DISEASE.”

c) Dosing: you’re taking 6 of these per day? They honestly sound more like cough drops with aggressive marketing than they do something that is going to boost your immune system which…looking at the packaging, other than the brand name (Zand Immunity) it makes no claims of having immune boosting activity. The mission statement said they wanted to create a “line of immunity supplements”, but the packaging itself isn’t claiming to boost immune function. So score one for their lawyers I guess

III
Now, if you go to their website, you’ll find the comforting statement “Backed by Science; our team of scientists and nutrition experts are always watching the latest clinical trials to create formulas that are precise, potent[,] and effective”. Which I read to mean they don’t conduct any clinical trials of their own.

To be fair, under the heading “Lab verified” you’ll find the statement “Quality matters. Our lab is ISO accredited and our facilities follow GMP (Good Manufacturing Practices) so ensure precision and consistency.” Which I read to mean that their product gets sent to a lab for purity/QC testing, NOT that it has been tested in patients (or animal models) in a rigorous

IV
I’ve spent at least 30 minutes looking through the manufacturer's website, and I haven’t been able to find any citations to back up the explicit or implicit claims made about the ingredients in this “immunity” product. (though I do see several uses of the phrase “Statements regarding dietary supplements have not been evaluated by the FDA and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or health condition” in big bold letters). (A page discussing one of the ingredients in one of their other products does link out to clinical studies conducted by a different manufacturer, but that isn’t relevant to this discussion).

V
As to claims made about the highlighted ingredients in the “Zand Immunity Echinacea Zinc” lozenges, I find them less than convincing but I’ll let you judge for yourself (based on how much trust you place in herbalism, naturopathy, homeopathy, astrology, etc.). (https://www.zandimmunity.com/collections/lozenges/product... )

VI
In general, I would rate the Zand Immunity website as being light on real science but big on words like “natural”, “wellbeing”, and a surprising blurb that might have been written by the Utah tourism office (https://www.zandimmunity.com/pages/faq ).

VII
A lot of emphasis is placed on their products being “made with care from original formulations by Zand founder, Dr. Janet Zand”, but I can’t find any reference as to Dr. Zand’s credentials, expertise, experience, etc. on their website. Through the wonders of Google, I have found a Dr. Janet Zand, who may be the same person. I’ll not comment on her qualifications but—speaking for myself—I wouldn’t engage her services or those of any similar practitioner.

greencat wrote:
Instead of fox "news" I prefer to get medical info from sources like Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins.


Speaking of the Mayo Clinic – From the page “Debunking COVID-19 (coronavirus) myths” (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronaviru... ):
“Supplements. Many people take vitamin C, zinc, green tea or echinacea to boost their immune systems. But these supplements are unlikely to affect your immune function or prevent you from getting sick.”
You’ll be happy to know that that comes between 5G mobile networks and Ivermectin on their Myth list.

If you don’t like the Mayo Clinic’s views on nutritional supplements and COVID-19, perhaps you’d like “Natural Medicines” (https://naturalmedicines.therapeuticresearch.com/about-us... ). I don’t know anything about them (so I’m not going to be citing them to make any provocative statements), but they at least look more scientifically rigorous than does Zand Immunity. (Also worth noting, they don’t appear to sell nutritional supplements, though they do sell access to their allegedly curated and peer reviewed database. I can’t really speak to the quality of that, as I didn’t feel like dropping $180 for an internet argument). But I digress.
Natural Medicines is helpfully keeping a public facing list of “ingredients contained in products that have received warnings from the FDA for selling products with fraudulent claims related to COVID-19” (https://naturalmedicines.therapeuticresearch.com/tools/co... ). That list contains entries for zinc (zinc gluconate) and echinacea, but it doesn’t look like Zand Immunity has specifically been called out.

Look, if you want to keep taking these, fine, I don’t care. But I seriously question the extent to which they exert any measurable impact on the immune system under real world conditions. Moreover, there is zero evidence that they provide any meaningful protection against COVID-19, and it is the height of irresponsibility to suggest to other people that taking them would do so. Its not QUITE as bad as pushing ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine (both of which are associated with real adverse events even when formulated for humans, not to mention the danger of taking veterinary formulations of ivermectin that you picked up from Chewy.com or Tractor Supply!), but it is still quite irresponsible. Why? Because someone might take your statements and say “Oh, well if I’m taking this then I don’t need to get vaccinated! This stuff is all natural and organic, not like that sinister mRNA stuff”. Or, someone who is vaccinated might think that by taking these, they don’t need a booster, or don’t need to isolate following a close COVID contact, or have nothing to risk by going to hang out mutually maskless with someone known to be actively infected with COVID.

Now, in the spirit of the holidays, I will say that I probably used some needlessly inflammatory language in previous posts (e.g. Whack job, the suggestion that you’re actually selling this stuff), so you have my apologies for that. (I don’t regret calling it snake oil though).

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/24/2021 5:49:01 PM 
JSF wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
Are there magical beams mixed in too?


Does Jim Beam count?


Perils of posting from a cell phone. Magical beans is what I meant, though Jim Beam has more real world benefits than magic beans
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/24/2021 7:17:27 PM 
What is the top line of my twitter?

"Get vaccinated already. Geez."

Nobody this side of Fauci and the guy over at Vandy (Shattner? Sp?) has been as 110% pro-vaccination. This was already clearly explained that I got my Pfizer in April/May plus November. From the Rutherford County Health Dept. - not the local retail store.

As far as the amounts of Puritan's Pride Echinacea Complex is 450mg (each) while Swanson is 400mg - the two big online supplement stores. A typical Swanson zinc is 50mg and P.Pride is 25 or 50. So I do use ADULT DOSEAGE supplements IN ADDITION TO being vaccinated and get labs drawn 4 times a year which is what Blue Cross will pay for and whatever I'm doing, according to Quest Diagnostics levels results is working just fine. Trying to eat a little more healthy, getting some exercise when the weather allows, and yes I take supplements which my physician has no problem with. I actually increased my intake of CoQ10, garlic oil, and lycopene not long ago which the doc is fine with.

As far as Chewy vs TSC... I find the selection and most prices are better ordering from Chewy. TSC did open a chain of pet stores called "Pet Sense" but their prices seemed even higher than TSC's pet dept. And the Pet Sense website seemed misleading but I won't go into that.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/24/2021 10:57:25 PM 
I'm not getting into the great supplement war, but I did want to mention that certain people have to be very careful not to take too much zinc. In the 1980s we had a visiting lecturer at the College of Osteopathic Medicine who advocated taking lots of Zinc as a boost to the immune system. I promptly went out and bought a zinc supplement, and after about a month of taking it daily I developed a very painful kidney stone, for which I was hospitalized overnight. I didn't immediately figure out for sure that that was the cause of my kidney stone as the doctors had all kinds of possible reasons -- like drinking too much milk, since my stone was calcium-oxalate one. So, I stopped drinking milk, except on my cereal in the morning. I did stop the Zinc supplement just in case it was the culprit, and then over the years I began to see statements to the effect that zinc in some people could facilitate the formation of calcium-oxalate stones. Fast forward to 2020, the manufacturer of the multivitamin that I had been taking for years decided, without much fanfare, to put ten times more zinc in their pill than previously because of all the hoopla about zinc being protective against Covid-19. I didn't notice this change in formula until, guess what, I came down with another painful kidney stone attack. So, now, it's crystal clear (pardon the pun) that too much zinc causes kidney stones to form in my urinary tract. I believe that I'm not the only one for whom this is true. May this serve as warning to others similarly situated.

Last Edited: 12/24/2021 11:24:52 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/25/2021 9:38:47 AM 
What was the amount of zinc they increased it to?

Most multi-vitamins have a relatively lightweight amount.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/25/2021 6:04:49 PM 
It was about 350 percent of the RDA. Previous amount was about 20 percent of RDA. I’m now using another brand that’s back to 20 percent of RDA. Dosage does matter!


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/25/2021 7:51:15 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
It was about 350 percent of the RDA. Previous amount was about 20 percent of RDA. I’m now using another brand that’s back to 20 percent of RDA. Dosage does matter!


I notice that the basic Swanson men's multi is 136% daily value on zinc which iirc is higher than it used to be but not drastically so.

The college basketball game I was going to watch tonight, the title game of the Hawaiian Airlines Diamond Head Classic, the "unreasonable tuition game" between Stanford and Vanderbilt is now off. Stanford has cancelled. Not sure if Vandy brings back the trophy as they did beat BYU, previously thought to be the best team in the field.

My evaluation: covid sucks.

---------------------------------------------------------

And while everybody should get vaccinated and boostered...

This is an interesting article from a physicians group in Norfolk, Va.

https://www.urologyofva.net/articles/category/healthy-liv...

Last Edited: 12/26/2021 11:54:29 AM by greencat

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/26/2021 2:34:06 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/19/entertainment/drakeo-the-r...

Probably not the best of ideas, but the above link adds substance to Greencats' argument.



https://www.healthing.ca/wellness/mental-health/hip-hop-s... /

And now, a counterpoint - saw this today giving credit to a hip hop song for drop in suicide rates.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/26/2021 9:28:36 PM 
I heard the name "Logic" before but don't remember that much about him.

So I looked him up on wik. Logic cites Frank Sinatra as his main inspiration. (not sarcastic and not trying to be funny, that is what it said)

Not exactly a gun-toting gangster...like so many of the others.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/27/2021 7:34:12 PM 
greencat wrote:
Not exactly a gun-toting gangster...like so many of the others.


If you don't want to come across as racist, reconsider this sort of statement.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Not specifically Ohio related.....but....
   Posted: 12/27/2021 9:39:17 PM 
JSF wrote:
greencat wrote:
Not exactly a gun-toting gangster...like so many of the others.


If you don't want to come across as racist, reconsider this sort of statement.


Don't make me post a list of vulgar/violent WHITE rappers. They DO exist.

As a matter of fact, this is from Eminem...

"I don't give a f-ck if this chick was my own mother I'd still f-ck her with no rubber and c-m inside her and have a son and a new brother at the same time and just say that it ain't mine."

I'll spare you his pro-murder, pro-necrophilia, pro-domestic-violence crap.

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