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Topic:  RE: Always Remember

Topic:  RE: Always Remember
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/14/2023 5:35:52 PM 

While the chart below says "casualties," this is actually the death total for each year.  You'll note that after Nixon became president in January 1969 the numbers started to drop.  It's not that Nixon did a great job; it's that he did manage to start to wind it down.  Still, the war dragged on way too long; in fact, it never should have been started in the first place.  In analyzing this war it's not that easy to come up with any good guys in terms of American leadership.  LBJ started it (I excuse JFK's advisors) and Nixon kept it going too long.  This is not a matter of one good guy and one a bad guy. When it comes to the Vietnam War, they were both utter disgraces, but in other areas they both had important positive accomplishments.

Last Edited: 5/15/2023 4:44:42 PM by OhioCatFan

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"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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74 Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/15/2023 9:10:41 AM 
The last man listed on the Viet Nam Memorial was a personal friend of my brother.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/15/2023 9:24:16 AM 
So the 36,000+ killed on Nixon's watch that could have been avoided...certainly didn't include Laos and/or Cambodia. Nixon and Agnew were rotten to the core.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/15/2023 10:20:47 AM 
greencat wrote:
LBJ didn't run for reelection. Nixon did. And to pander to conservative pro-war hawks, he didn't settle for a peace agreement until 1973 that was within grasp in 1968 when he was first elected by a scant margin of the popular vote.

Through back channels, he advised the South Vietnamese government to withdraw from peace talks, to refuse to deal with Johnson because if he was elected, they would get a "much better deal."

Of the 58,000+ U.S. fatalities between 1965 and 1973 (even though American casualties continued until 1975 due to Nixon's/Ford's crooked dishonest foot dragging)...a huge number of them were between '68 and '73 when Nixon had to finally step down in utter disgrace.


Exactly!!! The worse years of that conflict were under Nixon. And Johnson had to deal with Kennedy's advisors who quite frankly were from a board room and had the slightest clue about the military.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/15/2023 11:27:58 AM 
I was at O.U. in the Fall of 1971.

At that time, just about only student deferment was for ROTC.
So a lot of people, who had no interest in the military enrolled in the
program.

I still remember the instructor in my first Military Science class telling
us that the U.S. was fighting "not to lose" the Vietnam War , as opposed to fighting to win.

He said that, in his opinion, losing is exactly what would happen.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/16/2023 8:27:46 AM 
Henry Kissinger is a war criminal and Richard Nixon enabled him.

"Some good, some bad" is a statement one can make about basically anybody, and America is far too willing to paint a picture of it's history that doesn't hold people to account.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/16/2023 10:24:17 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Henry Kissinger is a war criminal and Richard Nixon enabled him.

"Some good, some bad" is a statement one can make about basically anybody, and America is far too willing to paint a picture of it's history that doesn't hold people to account.


I said both LBJ and Nixon were both bad when it came to Vietnam, but without LBJ's escalation of the war, Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with. Kissinger's worst crime was his complicity in the assassination of Allende in Chile. Years ago a former OU VP, who shall go nameless, who I met with regularly as part of my job, wanted to bring Henry Kissinger to campus to create some, in his mind, positive publicity. He, and several other members of his "cabinet" who were present, were shocked when I said if he did that I would be out there with my protest sign. The idea was dropped. I told him that I considered Kissinger an evil person who was completely amoral. So, perhaps, you and I have a small window of agreement here.

Last Edited: 5/16/2023 10:25:19 AM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/16/2023 12:57:46 PM 
Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with if not for Nixon's back room dealings.

Not to mention things like Laos and Cambodia that were SUPPOSED to be secret.

Kind of like Reagan's crooked hypocritical Iran-Contra arms for hostages.


** My father was a master sergeant in the USAF before I was born. He voted for both Nixon and Reagan. Then he saw the error of his ways and voted for Bill Clinton twice. Here's the best part. In the last election of his lifetime, he voted for Obama. A man who grew up in Florence, Alabama during Jim Crow voted for an African-American for president and leader of the free world. A veteran and former conservative. Let that sink in for anybody who refuses to abandon the stinking ship GOP. Especially those falling back on the false equivalence of "both side are alike."

They are not.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/16/2023 6:07:35 PM 
greencat wrote:
Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with if not for Nixon's back room dealings.

Not to mention things like Laos and Cambodia that were SUPPOSED to be secret.

Kind of like Reagan's crooked hypocritical Iran-Contra arms for hostages.


** My father was a master sergeant in the USAF before I was born. He voted for both Nixon and Reagan. Then he saw the error of his ways and voted for Bill Clinton twice. Here's the best part. In the last election of his lifetime, he voted for Obama. A man who grew up in Florence, Alabama during Jim Crow voted for an African-American for president and leader of the free world. A veteran and former conservative. Let that sink in for anybody who refuses to abandon the stinking ship GOP. Especially those falling back on the false equivalence of "both side are alike."

They are not.


In the narrowing middle, both major parties are quite similar. It's the extremes that are killing us not to mention the fortunes that are being made "serving" the people.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/16/2023 9:46:02 PM 
On that we will have to agree to disagree.

After Charlottesville. After Jan. 6th. The list is long.

I see very little similarity in the two sides. Quite to the contrary.
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Jeff Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 12:19:15 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
While the chart below says "casualties," this is actually the death total for each year. You'll note that after Nixon became president in January 1969 the numbers started to drop. It's not that Nixon did a great job; it's that he did manage to start to wind it down. Still, the war dragged on way too long; in fact, it never should have been started in the first place. In analyzing this war it's not that easy to come up with any good guys in terms of American leadership. LBJ started it (I excuse JFK's advisors) and Nixon kept it going too long. This is not a matter of one good guy and one a bad guy. When it comes to the Vietnam War, they were both utter disgraces, but in other areas they both had important positive accomplishments.
One note here...the 16000+ number for 1968, which OCF highlighted in red, belongs to the Kennedy/Johnson count since 1968 was the presidential election year and the Nixon administration did not start until Jan 20, 1969.

Jeff Johnson '67, Albuquerque, New Mexico
Back in the Land of Enchantment

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 10:22:46 AM 
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
While the chart below says "casualties," this is actually the death total for each year. You'll note that after Nixon became president in January 1969 the numbers started to drop. It's not that Nixon did a great job; it's that he did manage to start to wind it down. Still, the war dragged on way too long; in fact, it never should have been started in the first place. In analyzing this war it's not that easy to come up with any good guys in terms of American leadership. LBJ started it (I excuse JFK's advisors) and Nixon kept it going too long. This is not a matter of one good guy and one a bad guy. When it comes to the Vietnam War, they were both utter disgraces, but in other areas they both had important positive accomplishments.
One note here...the 16000+ number for 1968, which OCF highlighted in red, belongs to the Kennedy/Johnson count since 1968 was the presidential election year and the Nixon administration did not start until Jan 20, 1969.



I did not highlight that. I was highlighted in the original. I think just to mark the high point, so to speak.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 12:07:37 PM 
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
While the chart below says "casualties," this is actually the death total for each year. You'll note that after Nixon became president in January 1969 the numbers started to drop. It's not that Nixon did a great job; it's that he did manage to start to wind it down. Still, the war dragged on way too long; in fact, it never should have been started in the first place. In analyzing this war it's not that easy to come up with any good guys in terms of American leadership. LBJ started it (I excuse JFK's advisors) and Nixon kept it going too long. This is not a matter of one good guy and one a bad guy. When it comes to the Vietnam War, they were both utter disgraces, but in other areas they both had important positive accomplishments.
One note here...the 16000+ number for 1968, which OCF highlighted in red, belongs to the Kennedy/Johnson count since 1968 was the presidential election year and the Nixon administration did not start until Jan 20, 1969.



Off topic here, but you are from ABQ?

Have you ever taken the Breaking Bad/Call Saul tour?

Whenever I've been to NM, most of it was spent in Santa Fe and Taos. As a fan of Breaking Bad/Saul/El Camino it would possibly be fun.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 12:43:12 PM 
greencat wrote:
Whenever I've been to NM, most of it was spent in Santa Fe and Taos. As a fan of Breaking Bad/Saul/El Camino it would possibly be fun.


El Camino?? What a let down after anticipating the possibilities.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 1:17:56 PM 
It was a bit choppy, how the storyline jumped around but....

(SPOILER ALERT)

I thought the gunfight scene at the welding company was epic.
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Jeff Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 10:59:43 PM 
greencat wrote:
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
While the chart below says "casualties," this is actually the death total for each year. You'll note that after Nixon became president in January 1969 the numbers started to drop. It's not that Nixon did a great job; it's that he did manage to start to wind it down. Still, the war dragged on way too long; in fact, it never should have been started in the first place. In analyzing this war it's not that easy to come up with any good guys in terms of American leadership. LBJ started it (I excuse JFK's advisors) and Nixon kept it going too long. This is not a matter of one good guy and one a bad guy. When it comes to the Vietnam War, they were both utter disgraces, but in other areas they both had important positive accomplishments.
One note here...the 16000+ number for 1968, which OCF highlighted in red, belongs to the Kennedy/Johnson count since 1968 was the presidential election year and the Nixon administration did not start until Jan 20, 1969.



Off topic here, but you are from ABQ?

Have you ever taken the Breaking Bad/Call Saul tour?

Whenever I've been to NM, most of it was spent in Santa Fe and Taos. As a fan of Breaking Bad/Saul/El Camino it would possibly be fun.


Just moved back to ABQ last fall after a 10-year tour of Tucson, AZ, and Winchester, VA...sorry I ever left.

I enjoyed Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, and some of the scenes were taped in and near our old neighborhood, but I don't know if I'll take the tour...maybe if someone who is visiting wants to.

Jeff Johnson '67, Albuquerque, New Mexico
Back in the Land of Enchantment

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Jeff Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 11:24:30 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
While the chart below says "casualties," this is actually the death total for each year. You'll note that after Nixon became president in January 1969 the numbers started to drop. It's not that Nixon did a great job; it's that he did manage to start to wind it down. Still, the war dragged on way too long; in fact, it never should have been started in the first place. In analyzing this war it's not that easy to come up with any good guys in terms of American leadership. LBJ started it (I excuse JFK's advisors) and Nixon kept it going too long. This is not a matter of one good guy and one a bad guy. When it comes to the Vietnam War, they were both utter disgraces, but in other areas they both had important positive accomplishments.
One note here...the 16000+ number for 1968, which OCF highlighted in red, belongs to the Kennedy/Johnson count since 1968 was the presidential election year and the Nixon administration did not start until Jan 20, 1969.



I did not highlight that. I was highlighted in the original. I think just to mark the high point, so to speak.


Sorry OCF...my point was that that data point skews the distribution significantly depending on which administration one assumes it's in. Because it actually occurred in the Johnson Administration, the actual counts are 36,152 during the Kennedy/Johnson Administrations (actually a few less since I included the few during the Eisenhower Administration), and 21,279 during the Nixon/Ford Administrations (not including the years after 1986).

This does not excuse any of them for not keeping or getting us out of the war to begin with.

The war was going to happen anyway with or without US involvement. But history takes some strange twists, and an interesting result of the international politics of the South East Asia region is that our former enemy, (North) Vietnam, is now a strategic ally of the US in that region with respect to China.

Jeff Johnson '67, Albuquerque, New Mexico
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Jeff Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/17/2023 11:37:21 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
[...but without LBJ's escalation of the war, Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with.


My thinking is that had LBJ NOT escalated the war, his popularity would have been high at the end of his term (due to his civil rights reforms), and he would have decided to run for a second term, likely beating Nixon (assuming he would have ran).

Jeff Johnson '67, Albuquerque, New Mexico
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 7:38:17 AM 
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
[...but without LBJ's escalation of the war, Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with.


My thinking is that had LBJ NOT escalated the war, his popularity would have been high at the end of his term (due to his civil rights reforms), and he would have decided to run for a second term, likely beating Nixon (assuming he would have ran).



Not just his wins on the Civil Rights front but his work in Appalachia and against poverty.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 9:24:55 AM 
Unfortunately, LBJ was trapped into escalating the war. None of us, if put in his position, would likely have done anything different. "Giving up" a country to communism would have been political suicide -- the Birchers and others would have demanded his impeachment. Meanwhile, the military establishment, including his secretary of defense, assured him it would be over in less than a year. This was the perfect storm as envisioned in Eisenhower's "military industrial complex" speech. Without the war, L:BJ would have gone down as one of the best presidents of any era.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 11:29:00 AM 
SBH wrote:
Unfortunately, LBJ was trapped into escalating the war. None of us, if put in his position, would likely have done anything different. "Giving up" a country to communism would have been political suicide -- the Birchers and others would have demanded his impeachment. Meanwhile, the military establishment, including his secretary of defense, assured him it would be over in less than a year. This was the perfect storm as envisioned in Eisenhower's "military industrial complex" speech. Without the war, L:BJ would have gone down as one of the best presidents of any era.








Not to mention, LBJ was saddled with the Whiz Kids and others who bumbled the situation in Vietnam.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 1:29:24 PM 
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
[...but without LBJ's escalation of the war, Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with.


My thinking is that had LBJ NOT escalated the war, his popularity would have been high at the end of his term (due to his civil rights reforms), and he would have decided to run for a second term, likely beating Nixon (assuming he would have ran).



I tend to agree with this version of alternate history rather than SBH's take, which ascribes too much power, IMHO, to the "John Birchers." Truth be told, I actually had a fraternity brother who was a Bircher, but he was in the distinct minority there and elsewhere in the country. I think the issue is that once LBJ started the escalation it was hard to stop the inertia. But, if he hadn't started the escalation in the first place and ended U.S. involvement early in his presidency, I don't think it would have been a big factor in the election against RMN.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 1:49:56 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Jeff Johnson wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
[...but without LBJ's escalation of the war, Nixon wouldn't have had a war to deal with.


My thinking is that had LBJ NOT escalated the war, his popularity would have been high at the end of his term (due to his civil rights reforms), and he would have decided to run for a second term, likely beating Nixon (assuming he would have ran).



I tend to agree with this version of alternate history rather than SBH's take, which ascribes too much power, IMHO, to the "John Birchers." Truth be told, I actually had a fraternity brother who was a Bircher, but he was in the distinct minority there and elsewhere in the country. I think the issue is that once LBJ started the escalation it was hard to stop the inertia. But, if he hadn't started the escalation in the first place and ended U.S. involvement early in his presidency, I don't think it would have been a big factor in the election against RMN.


Let me guess. The teenaged Bircher learned it at the dinner table growing up.

He didn't just decide to go far-right out of the blue at the age of 18?

Am I close?

Last Edited: 5/18/2023 1:51:31 PM by greencat
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 3:30:56 PM 
Bobcat Attack's own Forest Gump (and Homer Simpson) OF COURSE has insight to the inner workings of the John Birch Society in the early 1960s. Truth be told, his best friend's cousin placed the full-page "Wanted for Treason" ad in the Dallas Morning News on November 22, 1963, and his next door neighbor's piano teacher managed the body count for General Westmoreland.

When I consider OCF's historical fabulism, I am reminded of the final scene in the final episode of St. Elsewhere.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Always Remember
   Posted: 5/18/2023 5:54:24 PM 
SBH wrote:
Bobcat Attack's own Forest Gump (and Homer Simpson) OF COURSE has insight to the inner workings of the John Birch Society in the early 1960s. Truth be told, his best friend's cousin placed the full-page "Wanted for Treason" ad in the Dallas Morning News on November 22, 1963, and his next door neighbor's piano teacher managed the body count for General Westmoreland.

When I consider OCF's historical fabulism, I am reminded of the final scene in the final episode of St. Elsewhere.




Hmm . . . Where did I say I had knowledge of the inner workings of the John Birch Society in the 1960s? Speaking of just making things up. I said that I knew one person who was a member. Actually no one in the fraternity was that close to him. He was kind of a lone wolf.

To answer the question posed by greencat, I really don’t know much about his family background. You might be right about his upbringing. All I remember is that he was from the Cleveland area and that he had German ancestry. I’m not sure how far back his family immigrated to the United States. He seemed quite racist in many of his attitudes. He died early — not too long after we graduated.

Last Edited: 5/18/2023 11:05:42 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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